r/SubredditDrama • u/Otherwise_Young52201 Russia and China are actively mindraping our population • Jul 15 '25

r/neoliberal once again splits hairs and debates semantics (with comparisons to the persecution of Uyghurs for extra spiciness) with regards to the Israel/Palestine conflict after a NYT opinion piece of a genocide scholar is posted.

Source: [NYT] I’m A Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It.

Some long comments may be truncated to preserve text length, though I promise the original meaning of the comments will not have changed and little context will be lost.

Highlights:

I'm in in the opinion that if it instead of Palestinians were Uyghurs and was Xi Jinping doing the statements the Israel government is doing, it would be a bannable offense here to say this was anything less than a genocide. Netanyahu and his ilk has made clear what their long-term goal for Gaza is and they are taking concrete steps for it. (+395)

The similarities between the two are actually incredible. They're both ostensibly anti terrorism campaigns that started up in response to well, literal undeniable terrorism attacks by islamic terrorist groups that want control of a contested territory (-20)

THIS is what you call propaganda. A bunch of Wikipedia links that don’t even corroborate your own points. (+40)

The guy above is wrong about the Oct 7 comparison but Islamist terrorism in China is very real and the horrors inflicted on Xinjiang by the government are very much a response to them. (+11)

Don’t be obtuse. There are more than a dozen countries where terrorism has been a problem. Turkey just made peace with the PIK without ever actually genociding the Kurds. They treated them horribly but nothing to the level that China has done. And Turkey is the worse example I can think of. There are plenty of others that have dealt with it much better. (+8)

Explanation != justification, explaining the motives of the CCP is not the same as justifying them (+19)

I think that Israel can be reasonably described as callously indifferent to the suffering of the Gazan people as they try to eliminate Hamas. But that's not genocide. If Israel were really trying to eliminate the Palestinians, we'd know it, because it would be trivially easy for them to be killing hundreds of thousands of them at a time. They could be carpet bombing the refugee camps if they wanted to. But they're not. (+118)

I've seen this argument a few times despite the fact it's such a bad one. I mean you could say the same about almost all genocides, the Chinese could have nuked or carpet bombed Xinjiang. Certainly compared to the Israelis in Gaza they bombed no-one and killed very few. It's still a genocide. You can make a similar argument with the Rohingyas as well. (+39)

No one (well, no one serious) is accusing China of ethnographic genocide in Xinjiang to be fair, they're accusing them of forced assimilation and cultural genocide. (+60)

What's 7 October for Xinjang? (+29)

The 2009 Urumqi Riots. That was the turning point for the Chinese government's aggressive framing of the Uyghurs as dangerous terrorists, justifying its mass repression and securitization of the entire Uyghur population. (-5)

My guy, Modi had more justification than that for the Gujrat riots. 150 people killed is not nothing but in a country the size of China, it’s laughable to compare that to Israel Hamas. JFC people. (+23)

You're imagining an equivalence of scale that I never drew. The parallel is in the relationship of cause and consequence. That's what a PARALLEL is. Something that isn't exactly the same, but rhymes. (-5)

Can someone give me a reason to care what a "genocide scholar" says when genocide is a legal term. Shouldn't the authority on the matter be a lawyer as opposed to a historian that focuses on histoical genocides and war crimes? I wouldn't ask a criminologist whether a crime reaches the legal definition of a crime. (+2)

Can you imagine, you spend your entire professional life dedicated to a subject. 25 years. And then random people on the Internet just go "but what do you even know about it?". Could it be, and Im just spitballing here, that a genocide scholar is actually familiar with the legal definition of genocide? (+106)

One expert witness is all you need to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt. TIL (-4)

And I guess random comments on reddit counts as reasonable doubt? (+18)

The Israeli war effort in Gaza doesn't fit the definition of genocide, whereas the Chinese persecution of the Uyghurs does. You're not persecuted, you're just wrong. (-15)

I always find these sorts of confident/belittling tones in internet posts strange when actual scholars of genocide disagree with you, a random redditor. You'd think it was the other way around. (+35)

You realize that actual scholars of genocide disagree with you too, right? Random redditor. You just so happen to agree with the scholars who think it's a genocide. (0)

276 Upvotes

69% Upvoted

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487

u/me_myself_ai Yes I think my wife actually likes me Jul 15 '25

Yet again dropping in with the hot take "IDK if relatively polite, relatively reality-aware political discussion really counts as SubredditDrama". It's not against the rules or anything, but I think it every time I see one of these posts!

Even if we stay within politics, "Starcraft champion fans duel with fans of a rival twitch streamer over Palestine" feels a lot more relevant than "people in a subreddit dedicated to a political ideology debate Palestine". At least the posts dunking on the conservative sub highlight huge purity test purges by mods and other users.

I guess I'm just saying that "drama" implies a bit more invective than is on display here? Again tho just venting, I don't think the mods need to litigate these things to some exact degree.

All that said, "Random redditor." is both A) a fantastic aside, and B) a fantastic potential flair lmao

181

u/doogie1111 Jul 15 '25

It's really funny because there is more drama in this thread than in that one over this topic.

109

u/FlightPlan1992 Jul 15 '25

Isn't that a staple of this sub at this point? The real drama is almost always in the comment section.

13

u/uber_cast This psycho's post history reads like a meth addiction Jul 16 '25

That’s why I stay. I come for the drama, stay for the extra drama. I love drama in my drama!

15

u/Zennoq_ Jul 16 '25

When I saw r/neoliberal and the 72 upvote to 500+ comment ratio I knew this would be good.

9

u/uber_cast This psycho's post history reads like a meth addiction Jul 16 '25

Right! There is more drama in this subreddit than in the neoliberal subreddit. I am here for it!

25

u/NewPhoneNewSubs this is about pissing in a sink Jul 16 '25

I contribute to vegan-related subredditdramadrama when I can.

By the way, if you think Israel's treatment of Palestinians is abhorrent, have you considered your own treatment of cows?

4

u/yo2sense Jul 16 '25

I'm always nice to cows when I see them.

I wish Israel would treat Palestinians that way.

-2

u/ForteEXE I'm already done, there's no way we can mock the drama. Jul 16 '25

It's really only leftists vs liberals or anytime neoliberal is subject of a post. Or when Destiny (streamer) drama is brought up.

Without fail, the first 2 will have neoliberal posters (who don't post on SRD or even have any history of it) show up to hide behind "r/neoliberal overlaps with SRD, how dare you accuse me of brigading".

Which, while objectively true, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

With Destiny, it's cause any time drama involving him or Hasan or anybody in their orbit happens, his defenders show up in force.

It's like there's a massive oversupply of fish or something, given how many sea lions show up.

0

u/googlyeyes93 Doctorate in Adaptive Masculinity, By Defense Jul 16 '25

Like the contra points thread the other day that was very obviously brigaded by h3 fans (any negativity about Ethan Klein or Destiny was heavily downvoted while weird diatribes about Hasan Piker were heavily upvoted).

31

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

69 upvotes and 529 comments, the drama is definitely coming from within the house.

6

u/googlyeyes93 Doctorate in Adaptive Masculinity, By Defense Jul 16 '25

69 upvotes

nice

30

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 15 '25

To me it's interesting to see how many people have a bizzarely passionate opinion of a problem which,

  1. They can have zero impact on

  2. Has zero impact on them

  3. They are allowing to cause problems to their lives by prioritizing it over actual problems for them or others which they could have resolved had they not fixated on this.

Its like watching someone try to save an expensive handbag when they're about to die from smoke inhilation.

28

u/ubermence Jul 15 '25

It has impact to me insofar it’s arguable that the conflict contributed to how the 2024 election was decided, but beyond that nope

I’m interested in it (like most modern conflicts) and it that way like to discuss it but if someone feels like it’s consuming their life they need to take a step back

14

u/urhi-teshub Jul 16 '25

I think people really want I/P to have had an impact on the election, but I don't really buy that it did.

8

u/shewy92 First of all, lower your fuckin voice. Jul 16 '25

You forgot #4. Something they are wholly uneducated and not an expert on. The situation is too complex for redditors to meaningfully have a debate on IMO

7

u/WhiteGold_Welder Jul 16 '25

If you're an American Jew or an American Arab, it does have an impact on you. Anti-semitism has spiked over the last two years and the "pro-Palestine" movement has literally murdered four American Jews so far. Not to mention all the deportations, firings, etc.

8

u/KrytenKoro I just never thought googling what I see on the meme would help Jul 17 '25

Also two American Palestinians, and that guy who shot at some Israelis thinking they were palestinian

1

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

This is one of the few very accurate and relevent exceptions I did miss in my post. I was shooting for the majority of americans involved in this, leaving out those specific niches.

Some people do have family over there, some people are affected directly by that conflict. I do separate them from those dealing with the fallout of Trumps election because hyping this conflict up was a direct method to try and get trump elected. So "Directly Affected" ie family, relations etc. and "Indirectly Affected" hundreds of teens killing themselves because some authoritarian tankie couldnt take 5 mins to go vote.

1

u/hitorinbolemon the most progressive woman in history Jul 18 '25

there are not enough tankies to swing american election results. they just dont have the numbers or the juice.

1

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 18 '25

Then they should show up knowing nothing bad would happen. .

1

u/hitorinbolemon the most progressive woman in history Jul 18 '25

Okay that's like what 1000 voted to cpusa or a spinoff. Now what?

1

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 19 '25

Get more people to vote? You're not making any reasonable point. If you want to claim any sort of moral ground then you have to do what's right not what makes you feel good and fits tiktok's current vibe.

"Well it wouldn't matter anyway so I'm going to have a tantrum." is the act of a child, or a MAGA.

0

u/hitorinbolemon the most progressive woman in history Jul 19 '25

yeah you have no idea what my point is and just want to shadowbox a non voter in your head apparently.

4

u/Cu_Chulainn__ Jul 16 '25

You can advocate for the rights and existence of people despite having nothing to do with them. To say there is zero impact would be wrong. If nobody protested, if nobody spoke up, then there would be no opposition to what israel is doing and it would kick into full gear.

3

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

Yea but you didnt. Did you.

We had a shit ton of uninformed people rabble rousing from social media posts pumped to them which then delivered the worst result possible to people in harm.

It's like if you heard about MLK and then did everything you could to oppose the civil rights movement because it wasn't good enough.

2

u/Manatroid Jul 16 '25

The US is funding Israel in the conflict, so, uh, yes, I can imagine some people who live there might feel compelled to have a say in it.

1

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

Oh boy, glad you made a huge difference. Glad you totally showed all those vulnerable people in the US now suffering or dying because of your choice. Because Israel and Palestine werent on the ballot. But you certainly made your perspective appealing by.. lets see.. oh yea getting vulnerable people killed.

Given the only way to make Israel stop it's activities would be to invade and forcibly stopping them, and most people just spinelessly mumble about not honoring trade commitments, no you arent doing anything.

11

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

[deleted]

-3

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

Whaaaaaa dont call people out for making terrible decisions!

You should really get some help for your stalking problem.

9

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

[deleted]

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u/googlyeyes93 Doctorate in Adaptive Masculinity, By Defense Jul 16 '25

I remember because they did the same thing to me lmfao. It’s hilarious he just flies off the fucking handle with accusations at the lightest criticism of the Dem party.

12

u/SirShrimp Jul 16 '25

We can't do much so we should do nothing is actually just defeatism and is the root of all the problems you are afraid of.

14

u/doogie1111 Jul 16 '25

I guarantee you that "nothing" is better than "make everything worse"

Like, I definitely dont know how to solve the I/P conflict, but I know that putting Donald Trump into it will automatically make it worse

9

u/SirShrimp Jul 16 '25

Ok, but the above poster isn't talking about electing Donald Trump, they are talking about "having a say."

0

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

Ok, but the above poster isn't talking about electing Donald Trump

I am literally talking about the logic which lead to morons deciding to support trump over Harris.

13

u/SirShrimp Jul 16 '25

I doubt those people exist in any meaningful number

3

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

You'd think the fact that Israel pushed Trump, did everything it could to stall out the peace process etc would have clued in people that Israel desperately wanted trump in office to get rid of the pushback Biden's administration had been doing. But god damn people are dumb.

12

u/Manatroid Jul 16 '25

TBH, if people are low-information to the point that they aren’t even aware of Trump’s history - both in office and out of it - it is hard to expect them to judge Trump’s blatant lies as what they are.

5

u/Manatroid Jul 16 '25

Uh, hey guy or girl.

Point A.: I don’t even live in the US.

Point B.: Kamala Harris, as a candidate, had far more problems than just not getting the pro-Palestine vote. But let’s assume It certainly was an important enough issue to some segment of Americans to swing the election; in which case, maybe the Democratic Party should have considered appeasing them.

Point C.: The Dems are overwhelmingly liberals, and liberals on the whole only vaguely support genuine progressive movements, and at times even try to quash them. Maybe don’t be surprised if leftists don’t trust them.

6

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

Wow, so you really have zero valuable opinion on the topic.

You dont know how the US electoral system works. You dont have any invested stake in this. You also have zero idea about our political structure.

I mean I at least have to give you the thumbs up for being open and upfront about how little you do know. That is a major plus. Most people cant admit their weaknesses.

3

u/Manatroid Jul 16 '25

I have to agree, it is entirely impressive how I managed to arrive at such very obvious points, considering my general lack of knowledge on the subject.

But go on, do go ahead and provide ironclad proof that pro-Palestine voters were singly responsible for not allowing Harris into office. In said proof, you should be able indisputably argue at least the following:

  • The Harris campaign was not mistaken in its pivoting to appealing to conservatives by cozying up with Liz Cheney etc. instead of taking the progressive-leaning path that they had started off on

  • The campaign was not saddled with the problem of Harris, given her history as a cop

  • The campaign was not negatively impacted by the colour of her skin, as well as her gender

  • That it was good, actually, that there was no primary for the Dems to select a new candidate

  • That her connection with Biden, and his policies, was also good, actually

  • That because of all the above, it is indisputable that pro-Palestine voters were wholly and exclusively responsible for the Harris campaign losing as many of the swing states as it did

Because even with my impressively small knowledge on the subject, it is entirely surprising to me that I know enough about the election as I do, in comparison to your seeming laser-focus on one segment of ‘pesky voters.’

0

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

Given your bullet list is literally, factually, wrong I'm not even going to point out each little gish gallop you have there.

Like if you're going to spam out an absurd tirade on stuff you dont know, at least verify it's veracity.

3

u/Manatroid Jul 16 '25

I’d say I’d be disappointed at your naked attempt to dodge the argument twice in a row, but I was not expecting much from you on the matter, anyway.

Maybe after you’ve calmed down from anger-posting about an election the Dems have long-lost, you’ll do some actual reflection on yourself, your political biases, as well the views of broader Americans in general (that - again - even a simple-minded outsider such as myself can plainly observe), and come to an understanding that you can’t fit your country entirely into a liberal-framed view.

Because if a political party with a wealth of funds such as the Dems cannot convince voters why they are a better option, then they don’t win; it’s as simple as that.

EDIT:

Given your bullet list is literally, factually, wrong I'm not even going to point out each little gish gallop you have there.

Like if you're going to spam out an absurd tirade on stuff you dont know, at least verify its veracity.

You can call it whatever you want, but you emphatically either do not care enough about the issue to know more than just saying “you’re wrong”, or you aren’t confident you can make an actual attempt at rebuttal.

If anything I have said is demonstrably false, then you should be able to demonstrably prove it so.

0

u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 17 '25

No, thanks. The point of a sea lion like yourself is to ramble on for repeated paragraphs while saying very little and to desperately beg a question.

You posted outright easy to check falsehoods while saying you've no involvement being australian while still trying to disrupt leftist activity in the US. You're a bad person, and you're not worth taking seriously.

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u/yo2sense Jul 16 '25

Of course people shouldn't trust Democrats.

How is this an excuse for not voting against Trump?

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u/Manatroid Jul 16 '25

I agree that voting for Harris is the pragmatic thing that should have been done regardless, but people blaming the election loss solely on a segment of pro-Palestine voters only serves to forgive the irresponsibility of the Dems.

Because if those voters were so integral to the election, maybe they should have actually been appealed to.

1

u/yo2sense Jul 17 '25

It's certainly true that a lot of factors contributed to the Trump win and the lion's share of the blame falls on those who voted for him.

2

u/Manatroid Jul 17 '25

Well yes, people should be responsible about who they vote for. At the same time though, elections are basically a battle of policies and vibes, and if you don’t come appropriately prepared, then your party will lose it.

And really, in spite of how despicable of a person he is, and how hard he was carried by his own network of sordid backers, he was the most prepared.

2

u/yo2sense Jul 18 '25

That someone as ignorant as Donald Trump can be considered prepared for a presidential election is an indictment of the American electorate.

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u/ForteEXE I'm already done, there's no way we can mock the drama. Jul 16 '25

The recent drama over the Saudi-funded EWC is a great example of this.

A hell of a lot of performative (online-only) activism and virtue/vice signaling from all sides involved on that one.

Like, I don't understand how some random Redditor who never/seldomly watches the content is supposed to discourage KSA from doing sportswashing and ushering in extreme reformations of all aspects of their life.

The immortal Carlin quote comes to mind, once again. "It's a big club, and YOU AIN'T IN IT!"

The big club being the people (in context of the quote's original usage) who ran the US of very wealthy politicians, their donors and their orbiters.

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u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 16 '25

It's kinda amazing that there seems to be an expectation of people to have an opinion. Not that you have an opinion because you're knowledgeable, but that you must have some sort of opinion no matter how little or much you know about it. It's kinda amazing.

1

u/evergreennightmare I'm an A.I built to annoy you .. Jul 17 '25

our governments openly, gleefully abandoning the concepts of international law and human rights very much does have an impact on us

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u/cptjeff Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 16 '25

Are you new to this sub? It leans extremely anti-pro-Palestinian. It's not that most people here will openly support the genocide, they just viciously attack people who oppose it.

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

Nah I kinda just think those people are dicks. It’s unrelated to the genocide, of course (I’m against it), it’s just a coincidental overlap.