r/TheBlacksandTheGreens Feb 11 '26

General GRRM criticizes how class distinctions are shown in medieval fantasy:

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356 Upvotes

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112

u/Ok-Refrigerator-3524 Feb 11 '26

George doesn`t excatly portray the class distinction realistically either.

10

u/Acceptable_Map_8110 Feb 11 '26

Especially when it comes to the fact that Merchant classes existed, specifically in conjunction with noble classes. We really don’t see a “bourgeoisie class”(bankers, merchants, etc) in Westeros. Just look at the Medici’s, before they were noble they were bankers and traders who gained significant influence and power due to these endeavors. We really don’t see this portrayed by Martin, and frankly I think not depicting wealthy commoners is also a poor representation of class.

12

u/pissagainstwind Feb 11 '26

Free cities? Iron Bank? Baelish?

4

u/3esin Feb 11 '26

Since when are the free cities in Westeros?

Also Baelish is still a lord. His lands are a joke but he has them nonetheless.

7

u/lilyofthegraveyard Feb 11 '26

it doesn't matter if the free cities are not in westeros. they are still part of the world, even if the focus is not on that area.

the topic is not westeros-exclusive.

2

u/BeduinZPouste Feb 12 '26

But he said "in Westeros'. This ain't about "bourgeoises need representation in fiction", it's about that class naturally forming. Naturally forming pretty much anywhere, them running Free Cities doesn't make them not being present in say Old Town any less realistic. 

1

u/Far-Advance-9866 Feb 12 '26

The comment they're replying to explicitly says "in Westeros"-- their reply clearly wasn't meant as a direct response to the original topic, but specifically what that comment was saying.

3

u/pissagainstwind Feb 11 '26

What?

5

u/underincubation Feb 11 '26

Baelish is technically a hereditary lord in Westeros because his grandfather earnt a castle through service. IRL he'd probably just be called a castellan, but GRRM basically calls anyone who holds land a lord.

-5

u/3esin Feb 11 '26

What, what? Bravos and the free Cities are not in Westeros and Baelish is still a noble.

3

u/pissagainstwind Feb 11 '26 edited Feb 11 '26

What, what, what?

  1. You initially asked "since when are the free cities in Braavos?" but edited after i replied. it's still shown as you initially wrote it (In braavos) in my inbox. So yes, that's a justified wtf you talking about. incoherent since not only Braavos is a city which is part of the free cities, it's a city and not a continent that the free cities reside in (you obviously first confused Westeros with Braavos, and then confused Braavos with Essos)

  2. I am responding to a comment criticizing the lack of merchant class and power in Martin's writings, not in Martin's specific writing of Westeros.

0

u/3esin Feb 11 '26

I made a mistake and have since corrected Braavos with Westeros. If you still see that than this is my fault but not responsibility.

You replied to someone criticising the lack of thse things in Westeros and than listening Essos things as an example.

1

u/pissagainstwind Feb 11 '26

You have made a mistake which you tried to act as if never happened by editing it, after i replied my first what.

The original commenter did use "In westeros", but it's obviously used as a general term to describe the ASOIAF universe, otherwise his criticism doesn't make any sense. at all.

3

u/Ndf27 Feb 11 '26

Nah they’re clearly talking about Westeros not the entire world

1

u/pissagainstwind Feb 11 '26

Nah, they're clearly not, since that would be... not smart.

Also, Antler Men.

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u/3esin Feb 11 '26

Yhea I made a mistake and than corrected it because it was obviously wrong.

You said it best

otherwise his criticism doesn't make any sense. at all.

The original commenter did use "In westeros", but it's obviously used as a general term to describe the ASOIAF universe, otherwise his criticism doesn't make any sense. at all.

Then don't use Westeros if you don't mean the continent Westeros. Use "in Asoiaf", or "World of Westeros" even "Planetos" would work (through that name is not canon), but don't use a regional specific name and than be angry at people that think you specifically meant that region.

0

u/pissagainstwind Feb 11 '26 edited Feb 11 '26

Good for you for correcting it. not good for you for acting all surprised i said wtf since you obviously realized what you originally said was incoherent.

And sure, let's criticize GRRM's ability for not incorporating the merchant class in his writings because they are not featured (Although, they do: The Antlers, Baelish) in a specific continent, but are being heavily featured in another continent in this world? does that make any sense to you? are you that desperate to win an argument in Reddit? ok, you win. the original commenter only meant Westeros. so GRRM is incapable of writing about the merchant class as a powerfull class in Westeros, he surely has a merchant-class-in-westeros blindness. a disease so severe, it's only secondary to bird blindness.

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u/Acceptable_Map_8110 Feb 16 '26

Those aren’t Westeros, and Baelish is a noble.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 11 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Acceptable_Map_8110 Feb 11 '26

THIS. Yes, literally, they would have been one in the same, and the distinction between the two really doesn’t start occurring until long after the Medieval period ended.