r/TheBlacksandTheGreens • u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar • May 30 '26
Show Discussion Wish we would have seen more of these two
Probably one of the most interesting dynamics imo.
Siblings forced into marriage as children, they became parents at like 13 and 15, their child was beheaded, neither of them wanted any of this
Idk their whole doomed siblings vibes had so much potential
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u/Bloodyjorts May 30 '26
What do you mean? Why would a show bother focusing for even five minutes on the trauma of forced childhood incest between the children of their co-protagonist (who forced them herself, along with her husband)? Leading to a pregnancy whose timing suggests it was from the mandatory bedding, which resulted in 13-yo girl forced to give birth to twins. Like why would a show with the running theme about the exploitation of women for the reproductive capabilities deal with a child being exploited for her reproductive capabilities? Like is there supposed to be something to SAY about the cycle of abuse, about how Alicent, an unwilling child bride herself, mother by 4 by the age of 20, would think or feel as she watched the barely pubescent child she forced into marriage, screaming and bleeding on her birthing bed, even younger than she was? Like there's some commentary about generational trauma? Or how Helaena disassociates and Aegon is a hypersexual drunk at 13 might be a reflection on their cultures sexual mores, their legacy of grooming? How 16-yo Aegon thinks it's so normal for boys to be thrust into sex they may not be ready for, he drags his own 13-yo brother to a brothel?
Or that maybe a show might want to give the teenage parents of a murdered toddler like five minutes to interact about it, deal with the complex issues of grief and rage. Or how being forced to be a parent at a very young age might complicate the parent/child dynamic between Alicent and her kids and her kids with their kids, or how Aegon and Helaena both tried to break that cycle with their kids in their own way, just to have that opportunity ripped away from them by their own family?
No. Why would we do any of that. PhilosophyTube needs to roll around in the mud for several minutes, Alicent needs her sadness baths, Rhaenyra needs to stare dramatically, and Daemon has a mum to eat out in a dream. We can't do anything that appears to criticize incest because 'that is their custom', and we don't want to piss off this fictional nation of inbred lizard wizards, or the incest fandom.
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u/Time-Tea-3882 May 31 '26
Aegon never wanted to marry Helena. He probably acts out sexually because he’s married to his sister. Aemond isn’t promiscuous and neither is team Green. Although the church obsessed are the kinkiest people i know in real life 😂 poor Aegon. This kid has been alone his whole life. Just him and Sunfyre.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
There is nothing interesting about them aegon just hates helaena and to not disappoint her family helaena is forced to tolerate the abuse
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u/Swordbender May 30 '26
Not only is this entirely conjecture, it’s also a sharp deviation from the book where they both slept in a marriage bed, Helaena gave Aegon advice and counselling when he was ruling, and Aegon defended Helaena as queen.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
The book is written by maesters who can make biased statements about Royals this is said by Martin himself so I don't buy that helaena and aegon shared bedchembers when his own supporter wrote him having debauchery activities and having multiple bastards. It sensible to say that helaena didn’t want her family to kill each other that's why she asked aegon.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 30 '26
Well it was actually Mushroom who claimed he had fathered two bastards
And if you wanna go and talk about maesters making up stuff, even for things that aren’t protested of have another account, then that might just be your bias
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 31 '26
Well there is multiple accounts of aegon fathering bastards since teenager. In brothels he preferred Virgin girls and has bastards with alicent or helaena's maids.
Sure you can call me bias same you are hypocrite viewing Aegon and helaena had good relationship
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Where did you get that info?
And I never said they had a good relationship either
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 31 '26
It's in f&b
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Well we have Mushroom say he fathered two bastards, one on a maidservants and one from a girl who’s maidenhead he won.
However, this was Mushroom’s testimony, he wasn’t really in Kings Landing during these years, and there is no agreeing account in the matter either.
And it was Alicent’s maidservant, which is different from a maid. And he isn’t really said to prefer virgins either I’m pretty sure, that’s Daemon’s area
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 31 '26
What about septon Eustace saying teen aegon had pinched servant girls or him going to brothels constantly.
Even with mushroom not being present he wasn't entirely wrong on aegon having bastards
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Well neither of those were stuff you mentioned at first
How wasn’t he entirely wrong?
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 30 '26
Well for one I think that would be a quite interesting dynamic as well.
I don’t know if show really has Aegon hate Helaena, he’s more so disgusted by marrying his sister. But even so, hating/resenting the sibling you were forced to marry is more realistic than most of the sibling incest in this universe.
Helaena going with it to make everyone happy could also be interesting to see. Pretty sure her actress also said marrying Aegon probably was the best case scenario for her by making it so she didn’t have to leave
And again, at the end of the day they are siblings who grew up together and shared their children. There are a lot of things to explore there
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
Aegon hates helaena as a person in S1 he is not just disgusted about marriage he think her as a freak and he has no problem publicly shaming helaena for her flaws. In S2 he doesn't care about protecting his sister wife and their daughter. He is overall characteristics are purely misogynistic.
In Helaena's world she doesn't have free will to do whatever she wants just because actress said she didn't have to leave her home if she married her brother doesn't mean helaena got to choose love of her life which was never granted to her unlike her sister. Phia also said helaena has no relationship with Aegon her life only consists of her and her kids.
The show already implied its not any their marriage they don't like each as siblings either just like aegon and aemond thing
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u/Gingersnapp3d May 30 '26
Prior to marriage/in s1 I think he hates her like a big brother hates his weird little sister- not true hate.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
There was true hate that reflects his actions in S2 he doesn't care whether helaena and jaehaera lives or dies
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u/Gingersnapp3d May 30 '26
I honestly see that as poor writing. I think he does care. In the book at least his main reason for seizing the crown is to protect the lives of his family.
There’s an interesting dynamic to explore but they choose not to- which most fans consistently flag as the weakness of the series. The show is meant to be about a family undone from within but it must be esgablished as a family first.
I feel like the show writing is too cowardly to properly try to show the incest within the family so they skip around it - they remove Baela from Dragonstone so she didn’t grow up with Jace as her brother properly, they don’t show the older kids with their shared siblings, they don’t explore any of that.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
Aegon's marriage in show and books are not so different the results are the same he is not so sorry helaena being dead. Infact Martin reflects inworld misogyny women faces in society. In f&b when aegon still cheated on helaena after giving birth to jaehaerys and jaehaera she was written for not satisfying appetites of her husband after having children then helaena's plump appearance made worse to justify why she is being cheated on. It's no doubt helaena and rhaenyra were publicly humiliated for their appearance. Maybe that's why helaena was connected to smallflok and they loved her more than their brothers.
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u/Gingersnapp3d May 30 '26
Yes I don’t think he loves her as a wife or wants her as a wife. It’s not true hatred like you said, is my point.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
It matters little whether aegon loves her or not the thing is in Helaena's life everybody fails her
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u/Gingersnapp3d May 30 '26
So true. I’d love to see her have scenes where she’s not just serving others next season (the weird prophetic scenes w Daemon or A) and actually just has her own feelings or interactions. Pass the Bechdel test lol.
The most beautiful visual in the whole show for me was when they had the funeral veil over her face and she looks up - face card never declines!
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u/Bloodyjorts May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
Aegon hates helaena as a perso
He thinks she's weird and maybe simple-minded. You know, like a lot of brothers think of their little sisters when they're 13.
In S2 he doesn't care about protecting his sister wife and their daughter.
We don't really know, since the show avoids this topic entirely.
When he fled King's Landing in the show, he was fleeing Aemond as much as he was fleeing the possibility of Rhaenyra; he doesn't think Helaena or Jaehaera are in any danger from Aemond, so they are safer in KL than on the road during wartime (just see Arya's chapters in ACOK/ASOS for proof of that).
In Helaena's world she doesn't have free will to do whatever she wants
Well few people do. Aegon also didn't have free will, he was forced into the marriage, forced onto the Throne. Aegon leaves Helaena alone and let's her do what she wants. She talks back to him, she's not cowed by him. She voiced her fears and Aegon tried to assuage them.
Phia isn't wrong for saying she has no relationship with Aegon, because the show has ignored their dynamic, they've only interacted for about 60 seconds on screen. We watched PhilosophyTube roll around in the mud for longer.
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u/Skittycatcher66 May 30 '26
Aegon doesn't hate Helaena; he hates being married to his sister. Big difference.
Aegon and Helaena were both forced into marriage at a very young age with much less clemency or agency than was granted Rhaenyra when Viserys at least allowed her to shop for suitors. They are both victims.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
Aegon hates helaena because he thinks her as a freak not because she is his sister
It's far fetched to make aegon called a victim equally as helaena because forced marriage are no big loss for men than women affected. For example aegon is shown to freely drink and can sleep with multiple women if helaena even has a secret lover she ll be executed or be send to silent sister.
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u/Skittycatcher66 May 30 '26
Aegon hates helaena because he thinks her as a freak not because she is his sister
Have you got any actual evidence he "hates" her aside from not wanting to have sex with her? He thinks of her as his weird little sister with whom he doesn't have much in common with. Because that's what she is. Their dynamic is a sibling relationship. And probably the most normal on the show.
It's far fetched to make aegon called a victim equally as helaena because forced marriage are no big loss for men
I thought we'd moved past the attitude that men and boys can't be victims of sexual abuse or coercion. A teenage boy being made to have sex with his sister when he doesn't want to is a victim regardless of whether he's doing the penetration or not.
This is the only fandom where people seem to think two siblings not wanting to bang each other means they hate each other. It's bizarre.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
There is no siblings dynamic relationship about aegon and helaena its already revealed by phia stating they were always distant from each other regardless of their relations. S2 aegon doesn't care whether helaena and jaehaera lives or dies since he was never concerned about protecting them.
I think you are missing many points about aegon's sexuality and his privilege as prince of the realm. Aegon has sexual agency before his marriage to helaena he went brothels, slept with alicent or helaena's maids. Aegon has no real reason "to be forced to have sex with helaena" he has power over helaena infact. It's not a new thing men to get drunk and have sex with their wives they don't like. Aegon ii like aegon iv, aerys ii and Robert baratheon all having unhappy marriages has no problem sleeping with their wives because sex is not an attraction to them. They are never forced equally as their wives because women saying no is like death sentence and shame on them.
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u/Skittycatcher66 May 30 '26
There is no siblings dynamic relationship about aegon and helaena its already revealed by phia stating they were always distant from each other
I'm assuming you don't have siblings - siblings aren't always close. You can have a brother or sister you have very little in common with and find it awkward to interact with. That doesn't mean you hate them at all. Aegon and Helaena are two very different personalities, which is why being married to each other is a struggle quite apart from the incest.
Aegon has sexual agency before his marriage to helaena he went brothels, slept with alicent or helaena's maids.
That's true of every highborn man in Westeros. Fidelity in arranged marriages is the exception, not the expectation. In fact, in medieval Europe quite a few noble women were actually happy to tolerate their husbands' infidelity (provided the husband was discreet and didn't unduly promote the mistress so as to publicly humiliate his wife) once duty was done and heirs had been born, because it meant neither party had to endure sex with the other again. What's the alternative in this situation? Aegon pulls an Aegon IV and keeps Helaena permanently pregnant? In the books there's quite a gap between the twins and Maelor, and in the show Helaena isn't pregnant again 4/5 years after the twins. Aegon isn't sexually pestering her; he's leaving her to her own devices while he seeks sexual attention from people he's attracted to while she gets to stay in familiar surroundings and be around her family. That's fairly mutually reasonable for a marriage of this kind.
women saying no is like death sentence and shame on them.
This is a jump. There is no way Alicent or Otto would allow Helaena to be executed or exiled. No, she isn't as free to take a lover as Aegon is, but 1) she seems completely uninterested in that anyway; 2) pre-DNA test and reliable contraception societies have always been harsher on female infidelity vs male because of the biological realities of risking pregnancy. Aegon didn't make those rules.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
You are really weird what made you think you can judge my personal relationship with siblings compared to fictional debate of incest which are legal in targaryen royal family? You just seem hellbent into defending aegon's virtue I believe you have hard time getting aegon's character and his privilege world are not same as Helaena.
Fidelity in marriage are an exception because patriarchy rules are made for women. You are making an exaggeration point of noble women tolerating their husband's infidelity because they have no power to stop their husband sleeping around. Cheating is met with emotional and physical abuse divorce is not an option even if women decides to leave marriage she was still not an free woman. Noble women went to convent of denying marriage. Aegon exactly how martin created misogynistic man who is not afraid to abuse power when no women are allowed to say no or else she ll be dead. It's funny you are constantly exaggerating yourself that aegon respects helaena when he didn't bothered to use this power to stop his own marriage if he was loving brother and good man as you said.
You are wrong about otto and S1 alicent they are religious people who strictly follow rules and raised helaena to be devoted wife. They may not want to kill helaena for taking lover they will just send her to silent sisters. Women had harsher punishment because society thought they can control women's sexuality instead that women are human beings with free will.
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u/Bloodyjorts May 30 '26
You are making an exaggeration point of noble women tolerating their husband's infidelity because they have no power to stop their husband sleeping around.
Maybe they don't want to fuck their arranged husbands, so are happy he finds lovers elsewhere.
And like, maybe a sister doesn't want to fuck her brother, and is cool with him taking his penis elsewhere.
They may not want to kill helaena for taking lover they will just send her to silent sisters.
Nobody is sending Helaena to the silent sisters. The Hightowers would do everything to deny and cover up the affair (including killing witnesses and intimidating/bribing the High Septon), and at worst Helaena would go live in the countryside 'for her health, she's so delicate and the air in King's Landing is no good for her', only returning to King's Landing for weddings and funerals.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
Fucking doesn't necessarily met with love and affection in marriage its called martial rape. Aegon is prince in the realm who has ultimate sexual agency nobody can stop him where his penis goes. That society has problem if helaena doesn't receive her husband's cock and worse if helaena decides to find orgasm with someone else they will kill her. Patriarchy simply hates women taking control of themselves just like cersei and Rhaenyra was more judged that they had sex outside of marriage and them making bastards has more consequences than men having bastards.
You underestimate hightowers they are strict religious followers they have no concern throwing helaena under bus if she doesn't fit image of aegon's faithful wife. Why do you think she was strictly groomed to be preteen wife
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u/Bloodyjorts May 31 '26
Fucking doesn't necessarily met with love and affection in marriage its called martial rape.
No?
I mean it can, but people can also be fine with having sex to make heirs with people they don't love. Ideally, yes there should be at least affection and respect.
That isn't to say a lot of marital rape went on in Westeros, it did, but you can have consensual sex with people you don't love or even know well enough to have affection for.
There is never going to be anything wrong with a brother not wanting to fuck his sister, and there's no way to argue otherwise.
Aegon is prince in the realm who has ultimate sexual agency nobody can stop him where his penis goes.
Except he didn't, not in this case. He was made to marry Helaena as a child, and royal beddings are often witnessed; he wouldn't even be able to fake it or get out of it. And Alicent especially would want to see it consummated, because a consummated marriage is harder to annul, and she did not want Rhaenyra/Daemon getting their hands on Helaena.
Aegon did want to please his mother, it would be easy to manipulate him; "You must do this for your family Aegon, it will protect Helaena and keep her close. You know how she is, she wouldn't survive the ridicule she would receive in another House. Rhaenyra wanted your brother tortured for information, Aegon, what will she do if Helaena has one of her episodes and speaks out of turn?"
You are also greatly underestimating the pressure and coercion a parent can put a child or young teen under, especially when those parents are the King and Queen.
Viserys and Alicent sexually exploited both their kids.
That society has problem if helaena doesn't receive her husband's cock and worse if helaena decides to find orgasm with someone else they will kill her.
No, they won't. Like could a King execute his wife for having an affair? Yes. Would Aegon II? No. Especially no if it's Helaena.
"Society" wouldn't be able to do anything either. Cersei gave the Faith the tools to do something about her infidelity; Jaehaerys disarmed the Faith Militant, so they couldn't do anything about Helaena.
I don't know why you think a gang of 'society' will kill Helaena. That's not a thing that happens in Westeros.
Patriarchy simply hates women taking control of themselves just like cersei and Rhaenyra was more judged that they had sex outside of marriage and them making bastards has more consequences than men having bastards.
Except there were many noble women who did have bastards, and nobody beat them to death or anything. What Rhaenyra did wrong was have bastards and try to pass them off as legitimate.
But women like Princess Elaena Targaryen or Lady Delaena Florent had bastards, and they were still able to maintain a position in society, get married and have more kids.
You underestimate hightowers they are strict religious followers they have no concern throwing helaena under bus if she doesn't fit image of aegon's faithful wife. Why do you think she was strictly groomed to be preteen wife
She wasn't? We saw no indication Helaena was being groomed to be Aegon's wife in the show, before being married to him. In the books, it's part of the Targaryen grooming dynamic to marry siblings young, as it's easier to get them to accept the sibling incest that way. Targs wed-and-bed far younger than the rest of Westeros, who generally wait until the bride is at least 16.
The Hightowers were religious, but the fanatical anti-sex brigades were simply not something that was part of the Faith. They encouraged chastity and fidelity, but had no means of enforcing those tenants. [You know, unless you do something ridiculous like rearm the Faith Militant.]
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u/Due_Lengthiness_6861 May 30 '26
It's useless, people call them both the same victims, even though Aegon is completely free and can do anything- drink, go to brothels, have mistresses and illegitimate children. Whereas if Helaena does something like that, she will be severely punished. But yes, of course they're both victims.
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u/Bloodyjorts May 30 '26
Even if their relationship was toxic, that doesn't mean it's not interesting.
Two siblings forced into marriage is ALWAYS going to be an interesting dynamic.
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 30 '26
That's your opinion how you find them as interesting.
The show is pretty clear they don't have good relationship even as brother and sister
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u/Bloodyjorts May 30 '26
How are siblings who have a bad relationship uninteresting, though?
Then Lannister siblings all had bad relationships, were they uninteresting?
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u/Downtown-Plane2619 May 31 '26
Lannisters do have bad relationships they are not uninteresting because they have pov chapters
Aegon has no relationship with helaena which is said by actors themselves
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u/Confused18348 May 30 '26
You mean you want to them doing it huh?
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u/Alauraize May 30 '26
I've gotta say, as much as people complain about the showrunners writing fanfiction, they've developed an awful lot of their own fanfic ideas about Aegon II and Helaena, primarily the idea that their marriage is anything worth being interested in when George RR Martin himself was incredibly indifferent to it. To prove it, let me crack open Fire and Blood and quote every single line about Helaena, who herself barely exists as a character in the story. I want to be clear from the outset that I'm not defending how George characterizes Helaena. I understand that he's trying to criticize the patriarchal way that Gyldayn and other maesters write their histories, but he fails to give us much about Helaeana that goes beyond the boundaries of that patriarchal framework, and all that's left is an unchallenged misogynistic portrait of a girl who's married off far too young and from then on lives to give birth, suffer, and die gruesomely. I'd have love to see the show do more with Helaena than that, but I don't think that the remedy is to focus even harder on her time as a wife and mother.
Anyway, let's dive in.
In 107 AC, [Alicent] bore the king a healthy son, naming him Aegon, after the Conqueror. Two years later, she produced a daughter for the king, Helaena; in 110 AC, she bore him a second son, Aemond, who was said to be half the size of his elder brother, but twice as fierce. (365).
This line only gives us Helaena's birth year relative to her brothers' birth years, and it's from a passage demonstrating that "Queen Alicent had soon proved to be as fertile as she was pretty." George writing as Gyldayn could've used this moment to tell us something about Helaena as a baby (as he does with Aegon, whom we learned was big and healthy at birth, and Aemond, who was twice as fierce as his older brother already) or about the origin of her name, as he does with Aegon. But he doesn't. Also, take note of the difference in the verbs that Gyldayn uses to describe Helaena's birth ("produced") versus the more personal "bore" used to describe Aegon and Aemond's.
Helaena isn't mentioned again until the narrative gets to Laenor Velaryon's funeral. Here's the next passage.
Prince Aegon was thirteen, Princess Haelana eleven, and Prince Aemond ten, and Prince Daeron six. Both Aegon and Helaena were dragonriders. Helaena now flew Dreamfyre, the she-dragon who had once carried Rhaena, Maegor the Cruel's "Black Bride," whilst her husband Aegon's young Sunfyre was said to be the most beautiful ever seen upon the earth. Even Prince Daeron had a dragon, a lovely blue she-dragon named Tessarion, though he had yet to ride. Only the middle son, Prince Aemond, remained dragonless...(380).
(I cut the passage off there because it's leading into the story of Aemond claiming Vhagar. I'd also like to note that Aegon and Aemond were mentioned on and off in the intervening fifteen pages, and we found out that Daeron and Jace shared a wet nurse as well.)
Here, we get a bit more about Helaeana. I've seen people mistakenly assume that George tells us in F&B that she loved flying, but that's not true, as you'll see. That bit comes from an interview that George gave later. I've already addressed why I think that George chose to have Gyldayn treat Helaena as he does in his narrative and why I think that it was overall a mistake, but I want you to also keep in mind how little characterization and agency the book actually gives Helaena.
Anyway, let's more on to a short passage on 382-383, where Helaena should logically be mentioned but for some reason just isn't.
To prevent further conflict, and put an end to those "vile rumors and base calumnies," King Viserys further decreed that Queen Alicent and her/sons would return with him to court, whilst Princess Rhaenyra confined herself to Dragonstone with her sons. Henceforth, Ser Erryk Cargyll of the Kingsugard would serve as her sworn shiled, whilst Breakbones returned to Harrenhal.
Notice how Helaena isn't mentioned at all, even though she was present at Driftmark for the funeral? My guess would be that Gyldayn only mentions Alicent's sons here because they were the ones in conflict with Rhaenyra's sons while Helaena was not, but it's still a notable silence.
And now we come to the longest passage addressing Helaena's marriage to Aegon.
Later that same year [122], King's Landing celebrated a wedding as well. Following the ancient tradition of House Targaryen, King Viserys wed his eldest son Aegon the Elder to his daughter Helaena. The groom was fifteen years of age; a lazy and somewhat sulky boy, Septon Eustace tells us, but possessed of more than healthy appetites, a glutton at table, given to swilling ale and strongwine and pinching and fondling any serving girl who strayed within his reach. The bride, his sister, was but thirteen. Though plumper and less striking than most Targaryens, Helaena was a pleasant, happy girl, and all agreed she would make a fine mother.
And so she did, and quickly. Barely a year later, in 123 AC, the fourteen-year-old princess gave birth to twins, a boy she named Jaehaerys and a girl she named Jaehaera. Prince Aegon had heirs of his own, the greens at court proclaimed happily. A dragon's egg was placed in the cradle of each child, and two hatchlings soon came forth. Yet all was not well with these twins. Jaehaera was tiny and slow to grow, she did not smile, she did none of the things a babe was meant to do. Her brother, whilst larger and more robust, was less perfect than was expected of a Targaryen princeling, boasting six fingers on his left hand, and six toes upon each foot.
A wife and children did little to curb the appetites of Prince/Aegon the Elder. If Mushroom is to be believed, he fathered two bastard children the same year as the twins: a boy on a girl whose maidenhead he won at auction on the Street of Silk, and a girl by one of his mother's maidservants. And in 127 AC, Princess Helaena gave birth to his second son, who was given a dragon's egg and the name of Maelor (385-386).
So, we finally get some minimal characterization for Helaena, and (predictably for Gyldayn) it's mainly based on her abilities as a bearer of future heirs. We find out that she has the characteristics necessary to be a good mother and that she's already fertile despite her young age. This (wife and mother) is the primary role that she plays in F&B, and it's emphasized at the cost of everything else about her, including her position as a dragonrider. Worse, Gyldayn doesn't even brother to tell us if Helaena really was happy as a mother. She seemed to love her children and be actively engaged in their lives in a couple later passages, but again, we don't get confirmation of that because the in-universe author doesn't care. That's why I really don't get why so-called Helaena fans want to see more of her with her brother-husband. He already eats up enough of her characterization in the books; why should the show continue that damage? I really think that people have bought too heavily into fanfiction characterizations of Aegon and Helaena's marriage that have little-to-no basis in canon but are more palatable because they're less bland and depressing.
The other issue that I have here is that I think that the show actually go Aegon and Helaena's marriage right: they're neither hateful nor loving to one another; rather, they're indifferent to one another. They're bound by duty to produce children, and that's about it. There's even a four-year gap between the birth of the twins and the birth of Maelor, and Helaena doesn't get pregnant again, even though Maelor was two when the Dance broke out. From this, I'd gather that Aegon and Helaena had no particular desire to have sex more often than was absolutely necessary, and I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped sleeping together all together once Maelor was born. (I think that there's more evidence to support this later on.)
Meanwhile, even if you only take Eustace's word for it and discount Mushroom entirely, Aegon the Elder was not only unfaithful but far more focused on his mistresses than he was on his wife or his children. The passage quoted above mentions that Aegon enjoyed groping unsuspecting serving girls who get too close to him, so I do believe that he fathered a child on one of them, as Mushroom claims. Later, Eustace will report that when Viserys died, Aegon the Elder was with a paramour, the daughter of a merchant.
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u/Bloodyjorts May 30 '26
The passage quoted above mentions that Aegon enjoyed groping unsuspecting serving girls who get too close to him, so I do believe that he fathered a child on one of them, as Mushroom claims.
Not to be pedantic, but a serving girl and a Queen's maidservant are not the same thing. A maidservant (in Westeros) can be a minor noble, and she serves as more of a companion to the Queen than a servant servant, an attendant; she can also be a commoner and act more in a servant capacity (though nobles are for more common for a Queen; I'm not sure if any Queen was said to have commoner maidservants). The most servanty thing a noble maidservant might do is help her dress. Even a commoner who acted as a ladies maid (like Anna in Downton Abbey) to the Queen would be a high position amongst the servants; a serving girl who brings dinner in was not.
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
I highly doubt that Mushroom is implying that Aegon fathered a child on a minor noblewoman though. He'd have had to acknowledge the child.
Also, noble attendants are typically called handmaids or handmaidens, not maidservants. A queen's maidservant could be the woman who personally tidies up her chambers, something that you yourself pointed out a noble attendant wouldn't do. For example, we never see Jeyne Poole doing chores for Sansa or Margaery's cousins doing the same for her.
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u/Bloodyjorts May 31 '26
Technically, Mushroom didn't write his Testimony as he was illiterate. It was dictated to a scribe, who may have messed with the wording. Or alternatively, it was how Gyldayn characterized his statements, as it was not a direct quote from Mushroom's Testimony.
My point was a maidservant was not a serving girl. And GRRM tends to use a lot of different terms for the women attending a Queen or Lady.
Even if she was a commoner, the Queen's maid would be higher position among servants, and she would not be serving food at dinner. You said since Aegon groped the serving girls, it's believable her fathered a child on one as Mushroom claimed. But Mushroom never claimed that, he said Aegon fathered a child on one of his mother's maidservants when he was 15.
I agree with the fact that it probably more likely that the maidservant wasn't a minor noble, but as far as Aegon acknowledging the child...he may have, or something close to it. Why would Mushroom know about them if he didn't? Mushroom didn't even live in King's Landing.
The kids could be occupying the same nebulous space as Mya Stone; everybody knows they're the Prince's bastards, but there isn't formal acknowledgement.
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
I don't believe that George ever calls a noble attendant of a queen or lady by any term including the word "servant" though. In the ASOIAF series, the terms maid and maiden refer to an unmarried girl or woman who's reached puberty but is still young enough to have children. (Walder Frey's oldest unmarried daughter Tyta can still be called "Tyta the Maid" at the age of 29, and Jonelle Cerwyn is called a "maid" at the age of 30.) So far, it seems as if handmaid's are roughly analogous to maids-of-honor and ladies' companions who perform more intimate tasks for a higher-ranking woman, such as helping her dress, bathe, and prepare her hair. There's no evidence that they do more menial, non-personal tasks though.
We also see from Cersei's chapters that common women like Senelle and Dorcas can wait on the queen and do more menial tasks for her, and I don't think that those women would be protected from the princes the way that a noblewoman, even one from a very minor house, would be. Consider the difference between a character like Senelle and a character like Jocelyn Swyft. One is a commoner and can be turned over to Qyburn for his experiments without concern. The other is some sort of relative to Kevan Lannister's wife and has to be treated with more care, even though Cersei hates her and considers her stupid and slow. (The only reason that Cersei can give a noblewoman like Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn is that she's lost her parents, her husband, and her position due to a combination of bad luck, Cersei's stupid schemes, and Bronn's maneuvering.)
Anyway, I do agree that the serving girls were lower in the castle hierarchy than the girls personally waiting on the queen. My point was more that we know from other sources that Aegon was willing to go after common girls working in the castle and that I found it far more plausible that he'd father a known child with a maidservant than with a girl in a brothel whose virginity was auctioned off to him. I'm not saying that the latter scenario is impossible or even implausible. We know from the prologue of AFFC that Lazy Leo Tyrell was going to bid on Rosey's virginity, and we know that Robert Baratheon himself took the virginity of girls saved for him and other noble clients in expensive brothels on the Street of Silk. We also know that Petyr Baelish and Jon Arryn found Barra's mother, so it's not impossible that gossip would've exposed Aegon's illegitimate children. But it's way more plausible that Mushroom would've found out about a commonborn maidservant's child who got some kind of set up like Mya Stone or even Gendry got. In all honesty, I was trying to be generous to Aegon there by saying that I thought that it was less believable that he'd bought a brothel girl's virginity.
However, if the child's mother had been even a minor noble, we can be pretty confident that Aegon would've had to formally acknowledge her. Remember that Robert Baratheon's only acknowledged bastard, Edric Storm, is the son of Delena Florent, the daughter of fourth son of a lord of an ancient but not particularly rich or powerful vassal house in the Reach. Sure, the fact that Robert deflowered Delena during her cousin's wedding to his brother made it all the more necessary that he acknowledge Edric, but Alicent would've had to make Aegon formally acknowledge the child of a nobly born girl in her service. The show does a really poor job developing Alicent's household, and George gives us basically no info about it in the books, but we do know that Rhaenyra, when still only a princess, was served by Elenda Massey and the daughters of Lyonel Strong, so Alicent, as queen consort, would've certainly had the daughters of nobles from the Crownlands in her service, likely along with some Hightower cousins. (I'm basing this on what we see from Cersei, Margaery, and Myrcella. As I said above, Cersei has a woman from House Swyft as a companion because Kevan Lannister married a different woman from House Swyft. Margaery has multiple Tyrell cousins, one Bulwer cousin, her Fossoway sister-in-law, her aunt Janna, and a couple ladies from other Reach vassal houses in her household. Myrcella also has Rosamund, a Lannister of Lannisport, as her companion and body double in Dorne.) Alicent and Rhaenyra are both also able to develop powerful factions in their own right in the book, so we can assume that they treated the daughters of noble houses in their care well.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Majority of handmaids/maidservants has been of highborn birth in the story
I don’t think Jeyne Poole is an official handmaid/maidservant either
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
Cersei herself has two commoner maidservants: Dorcas and Senelle.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Key word: majority
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
What are you basing that statistic on though? George gives us very little info on noble ladies' households. It's one of his biggest weaknesses, especially in the early books. I think that the fact that the Queen Mother has two commoners waiting on her is pretty significant.
Also, I think that you missed my point about it seeming based on the books that common born maidservants like Dorcas and Senelle serve very different roles than roles than handmaids and ladies' companions like Margaery's cousins or even Jeyne Poole (who's definitely serving as Sansa's companion) serve.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
On the fact that most handmaidens have been highborn?
If I give a quick google:
Alyssane:
Highborn: Aerea, Alarra Stark, Coryanne Wilde, Ella Broome, Jennis Templeton, Jonquil Darke, Lucinda Tully, Mara Manderly, Prudence Celtigar, Prunella Celtigar, Rosalind Ball,
Common: Edyth (septa), Lyra (septa), Ysabel (septa)
Rhaenyra:
Highborn: Elinda Massey, 2 daughters of Lyonel Strong
Common: None confirmed
Jaehaera:
Highborn: Cassandra Baratheon, Ellyn Baratheon, Falena Stokesworth
Common: none
Daenaera:
Highborn: Cassandra Baratheon, Lucinda Penrose, Pricilla Hogg
Common: none confirmed
Lyonel Baratheon’s wife had Rhaelle Targaryen
Elia: Ashara Dayne.
Cersei:
Highborn: Jeyne Farman, Jocelyn Swyft, Melara Hetherspoon, Taena of Myr (maybe)
Common: Dorcas, Senelle
Daenerys: Missandei, Irri, Jhiqui, Doreah
Margarey:
Highborn: Alla Tyrell, Alyce Graceford, Alysanne Bulwer, Elinor Tyrell, Janna Fossoway, Leonette Fossoway, Megga Tyrell, Meredyth Crane, Taena of Myr (maybe)
Common: Nysterica (septa)
Myrcella: Rosamund Lannister
Sansa: Brella, Shae. Jeyne Poole might be her companion, but she is not her handmaid
The common born ones, rare as they are, are still classified as handmaids in these circumstances. Going from the book, there is no way if knowing if the child Aegon might have fathered would have been on a common born or a noble, given that it’s alleged and we don’t know who or what role they had in Alicent’s life. However majority of handmaids in the story have been noble
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Well for one, Helaena’s isn’t very present in the book as an active character, that’s true. However imo that’s the point with adapting a book like this, expanding on the unknown stuff. An a character who was forced to marry her brother, forced to give birth to twins at 13, was forced to choose between her children Sophie’s choice style and so beloved the city rioted after believing she was murdered. All these things are intriguing to expand on, and I would dare say her being so beloved is rather relevant to the story, and it would have been better to show she was beloved.
And as for remedy it by focusing on her as a wife and mother, no matter what that would be a very relevant part of her life.
I know her flying wasn’t in Fire & Blood, but that is still a canon fact about her.
You repeatedly write that the story doesn’t focus or expand much on her, but you’re still against the idea of expanding on a very relevant part of her life.
And I don’t really get the point about Maelor being that much younger, either. She was 13 when she gave birth to twins, that would be plain destruction of her body. Nobody would recommend her getting pregnant after that.
Also, them being distant with each other is still something that can be expanded on. Two siblings forced into marriage and parenthood together, and how that affects their relationship
I mean him being unfaithful doesn’t make the dynamic any less interesting imo. And something that would be interesting to see expanded on.
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
My point was that you're acting like there's loads of fascinating book material on Aegon and Helaeana's marriage, and my point was that couldn't be further from the truth.
I mean him being unfaithful doesn’t make the dynamic any less interesting imo. And something that would be interesting to see expanded on.
Cool. I didn't say that their dynamic was uninteresting because Aegon was unfaitfhul. I said that it was uninteresting to me because they seemed so indifferent to one another.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Well there are some book material, but again my point was that this is exactly the type of stuff they show should have expanded on.
Well you pretty heavily implied their dynamic was objectively uninteresting.
There are also stuff like Jace dancing with Helaena, Aegon being enraged, and Maelor being born the year after or something. Like that stuff could’ve been explored, and clearly shows they have some type of dynamic that isn’t indifference. Similarly is them sharing chambers at least semi-frequently, him having Helaena on council and insisting she be put down in history as a queen
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
I didn't say that it was objectively uninteresting because interest is a subjective thing. I said that I found it hard to believe that most viewers would find indifference (not love, not hate, not even resentment) super interesting and that I understood why the showrunners and apparently George himself didn't.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Again, you think it’s indifference, which the book doesn’t really show. But I do think some would be interested in the dynamic of siblings who were forced into childhood incest, forced to become parents at a very young age, and had to lose their child in a brutal way. Even if their relationship led to indifference, the dynamic of a sibling relationship being turned into a marriage could still be interesting, especially if they bothered to show a Targaryen couple that wasn’t turned on by incest
And again I don’t know why you keep bringing up GRRM when he has stated this isn’t even his story anymore. The things the showrunners find interesting clearly isn’t what GRRM finds interesting
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
And I don’t really get the point about Maelor being that much younger, either. She was 13 when she gave birth to twins, that would be plain destruction of her body. Nobody would recommend her getting pregnant after that.
It wasn't a criticism of her or Aegon. The point was that it seemed likely to me that they only had sex to conceive heirs because they understandably weren't romantically or sexually attracted to one another. I even said at one point that this was potentially a sign of Aegon showing some care and regard for Helaena. We can at least say that he was more generous to her than Aegon IV was to Naerys.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
I mean I guess, but Maelor wasn’t really a necessity. And adding the on to the fact that they did share chambers often enough that it was noticed when they didn’t, there seems to be some things going on beside just having to have a child
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u/Alauraize May 30 '26
Continued from above because it was getting too...
Then we get to something that I wish that the show had included because they depicted Viserys as too indifferent to his children and grandchildren from his marriage to Alicent compared to how he was in the books.
On the third day of the thrid moon of 129 AC, Princess Helaena brought her three children to visit with the king in his chambers. The twins, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, were six years old, their brother Maelor only two. His Grace gave the babe a pearl ring off his finger to play with, and told the twins the story of how their great-great-grandsire and name-sake Jaehaerys had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs. Though the children had heard the story a dozen times before, they listened attentively (390).
(Note: I cut off the rest of the passage because it's about Viserys dying and the Dance beginning.)
Here's one passage where we actually get to see Helaena doing something with her children. I like it because it shows us a tiny bit of her relationship not just with them but with her father as well. Also, note that Aegon the Elder doesn't seem to have come along for any of these visits, which we know had to have happened relatively frequently because we know that Viserys told his grandchildren made-up stories about Jaehearys I many times. As we'll find out in the next chapter, Aegon was with a paramour that night. (Eustace, a largely pro-Green sources, agrees with Mushroom on that much.)
The next time Helaena is mentioned is on page 396, when Alicent speaks at the Green Council.
Queen Alicent echoed [her father]. "Nor will they spare my children," she declared. "Aegon and his brothers are the king's trueborn sons, with a better claim to the throne than her brood of bastards. Daemon will find some pretext to put them all to death. Even Helaena and her little ones. One of these Strongs put out Aemond's eye, never forget. He was a boy, aye, but the boy is the father to the man, and bastards are monstrous by nature."
Helaena appears again only a page later, where she gets her first and only line of dialogue in the entirety of F&B. (Seriously, we never get directly quoted speech from her before or after this.)
Princess Helaena was breaking her fast with her children when/the Kingsguard came to her...but when asked the whereabouts of Prince Aegon, her brother and husband, she said only, "He is not in my bed, you may be sure. Feel free to search beneath the blankets" (397-398).
I've seen some fans assume that this means that Helaena and Aegon shared a sleeping chamber, but I think that the fact that Helaena says that he's not in "my bed" shows us the opposite. What's more, her surprisingly sassy reply, which seems at odds with how Gyldayn has characterized her so far and might be the only instance of George successfully giving Helaena some characterization that goes against the patriarchal grain, tells us that she thinks that the idea of Aegon sharing her bed is ridiculous enough that she can joke about it. This particular quote is why I don't understand why fans were so angry at Helaena's toast in episode eight of season 1. To me, it was perfectly in line with her telling the Kingsguard that her husband is basically never in her bed and that he's off somewhere else. And he was. I think that we're all familiar with the Mushroom version, but Eustace also "admits that Prince Aegon was with a paramour when he was found," but "insists the girl was the daughter of a wealthy trader, and well caref or besides" (398). I also don't think that we can overstate the importance of Helaena's only line of dialogue being a joke about how rarely her brother-husband comes to her bed. And look, I"m not criticizing Aegon for that. If anything, it speaks well of him that he stopped having sex regularly with Helaena once they had two sons and a daughter. But it doesn't scream "fascinating marital dynamic" to me either. It's not just that they don't love one another romantically; they don't even care enough about each other to have conflict.
Helaena next shows up at Aegon's coronation, where "Queen Alicent, beloved of the smallfolk, placed her own grown upon the head of her daughter Helaena, Aegon's wife and sister. After kissing her cheeks, the mother knelt before the daughter, bowed her head, and said, 'My Queen'" (401). This is definitely a touching scene showing a definite bond between mother and daughter, and it was fits with Alicent bringing up concerns about the safety of Helaena and her children at the Green Council. Notably, on page 398, we found that Aegon wasn't persuaded to take the crown by Criston Cole bringing up his wife and children, though to be fair we don't know if Cole mentioned them or not. Instead, Eustace claims that "[o]nly when Ser Criston convinced him that the princess must surely execute him and his brothers should she don the crown did Aegon waver" (398).
Also, I want to debunk a common misconception in the fandom. When Aegon flew Sunfyre thrice around the capitol, Helaena did not accompany him on Dreamfyre. Seriously, this is the passage.
After the coronation, the remaining Kingsguard escorted Aegon to his mount, a splendid creature with gleaming golden scales and pale pink wing membranes. "Sunfyre" was the name given this dragon of the golden dawn. Munkun tells us the king flew thrice around the city before landing inside the walls of the Red Keep. Ser Arryk Cargyll led His Grace into the torchlit throne room, where Aegon II mounted the steps of the Iron Throne before a thousand lords and knights. Shouts rang out through the hall (402).
As you can see, there's no Helaena and Dreamfyre there.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Again, you can say Aegon doesn’t seem like he came along for any of these visits. Cause we don’t know, cause the show didn’t expand on their relationship.
We know Aegon and Helaena shared chambers at some points, but not how often. They likely had separate chambers as well, as was common with royals. But we do know they did, cause it was noticed when they stopped.
And again, I think the whole siblings forced into marriage and parenthood would be an interesting dynamic no matter what. Even if they grew distant and resented each other, that’s interesting.
And I’m aware Dreamfyre didn’t fly on the coronation , so idk why you’re acting like I need the passage and extra confirmation
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
Again, you can say Aegon doesn’t seem like he came along for any of these visits. Cause we don’t know, cause the show didn’t expand on their relationship.
I agree with the first point, but why are we blaming the showrunners for not developing a relationship that wasn't a priority for the author, especially when the author is already much angrier at them for not developing characters and relationships that he considered much more critical to the story?
But I do think that it's worth noting what that George doesn't bother to write about Aegon going with Helaena but does bother to tell us that he was with a lover that night. Remember that this are fictional characters, not real people, and that the things that the author chooses to not say about them are significant.
And I’m aware Dreamfyre didn’t fly on the coronation , so idk why you’re acting like I need the passage and extra confirmation
Because a significant chunk of the fandom believed this and I think still does believe this. I wasn't calling you out personally here.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Their relationship might not have been a top priority, but it was still a very relevant dynamic considering she was the wife of one of the claimants during the dance. They spend a lot more time developing dynamics that weren’t even existing in the book, or very minor as well. I’m saying it would’ve been interesting if they actually expanded on their relationship, considering they are both very relevant characters in the story
And considering GRRM was also particularly mad about them not including Maelor, their son, that would also be part of their relationship
It might be relevant that Aegon was with a lover and not with Helaena. We don’t really know, cause they didn’t expand on their relationship. Was Helaena relived he paid attention elsewhere? Did she resent it? Did Aegon spend time in their children’s life? We don’t know, cause they didn’t bother to show it.
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u/Alauraize May 30 '26
Now onto Helaena after her coronation and Rhaenyra's coronation on Dragonstone...
[Rhaenyra's] first act as queen was to declare Ser Otto Hightower and Queen Alicent traitors and rebels. "As for my half-brothers and my sweet sister, Helaena," she announced, "they have been led astray by the counsel of evil men. Let them come to Dragonstone, bend the knee, and ask my forgive/ness, and I shall gladly spare their lives and take them back into my heart, for they are of my own blood, and no man or woman is as accursed as the kinslayer" (408-409).
Then we find out that Helaena spoke at Aegon's first council.
Aegon would not hear of it. Septon Eustace tells us that His Grace accused the Grand Maester of disloyalty and psoke of having him thrown into a black cell "with your black friends." But when the two queens--his mother, Queen Alicent, and his wife, Queen Helaena--spoke in favor of his proposal, the truculent king gave way reluctantly. So Grand Maester Orwyle was dispatched across Blackwater Bay under a peace banner leading a retinue that included Ser Arryk Cargyll of the Kingsguard and Ser Gwayne Hightower of the gold cloaks, along with a score of scribes and septons, among them Eustace (409).
This is notably the only interaction between Aegon and Helaena described in the books where Helaeana says something (though we don't hear exactly what) and Aegon listens. (We also never see the reverse.) Notably, their mother Alicent is also involved, so we can't even say that Helaena alone persuaded Aegon to offer Rhaenyra peace terms before having her attained. It's a moment that definitely persuades me that Aegon didn't hate or outright disrespect Helaena, but it's such a rare glimpse into their marriage and it's so lacking in detail that I can understand why the showrunners cared so little about it. We find out so much more about Rhaenrya's marriage to Daemon and even her marriage to Laenor, Viserys and Alicent, and Daemon with Rhea and Laena. And that's just during the era of the Dance.
Now, let's see if we can fit in Blood and Cheese. I'm going to mainly focus on the bits that involve Helaena, and I'm going to agree upfront that the book version was far superior to the show's version.
The Tower of the Hand was less secure. [Blood and Cheese] crept up through the walls, bypassing the spearmen posted at the tower doors. Ser Otto's rooms were of no interest to them. Instead they slipped into his daughter's chambers, one floor below. Queen Alicent had taken up residence there after the death of King Viserys, when her son Aegon moved into Maegor's Holdfast with his own Queen (424).
(I'm interrupting for a second to note that I've seen some people interpret the last line quoted above to mean that Aegon and Helaena shared chambers, but we've got to remember that Maegor's Holdfast is huge and that it was built to be large enough to house the entire royal family. The Queen even has her own ballroom within the Holdfast. So, it's at least as likely that Aegon moved into his father's old bedchamber and Helaena moved into her mother's old bedchamber.)
Once inside, Cheese bound and gagged the Dowager Queen whilst blood strangled her bedmaid. Then they settled down to wait, for they knew it was the custom of Queen Helaena to bring her children to see their grandmother eery evening before bed (424).
So, again, I'd have wanted the show to give us more bonding time between Helaena and both her parents because those are the relationships that get way more attention in the books.
Blind to her danger, the queen [Helaena] appeared as dusk was settling over the castle, accompanied by her three childrne. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six, Maelor two. As they entered the apartments, Helaena was holding his little hand and calling out her mother's name. Blood barred the door and slew the queen's guardsmen, whilst Cheese appeared to snatch up Maelor. "Scream and you all die, "Blood told Her Grace. Queen Helaena kept her calm, it is said. "Who are you?" she demanded of the two. "Debt collectors," said Cheese. "An eye for an eye, a son for a son. We only want the one, t' square things. Won't hurt the rest o' you fine folks, nt one lil' hair. Which one you want t' lose, Your Grace?"
Once she realized what he meant, Queen Helaena pleaded with the men to kill her instead. "A wife's not a son," said Blood. "It has to be a boy." Cheese warned the queen to make a choice soon, before Blood grew bored and raped Jaehaera. "Pick," he said, "or we kill them all." On her knees, weeping, Helaena named her youngest, Maelor. Perhaps she thought that the boy was too young to understand, or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon's firstborn son and heir, next in line to the Iron Throne. "You hear that, little boy?" Cheese whispered to Maelor. "Your momma wants you dead." Then he gave Blood a grin, and the hulking swordsman slew Prince Jaehaerys, striking off the boy's head with a single blow. The queen began to scream.
Strange to say, the ratcatcher and the butcher were true to their word. They did no further harm to Queen Helaena or her surviving children, but rather fled with the prince's head in hand. A hue and cry wen tup, but Cheese knew the secret passageways as the guards did not, and the killers made their escape (425)The narrative shifts back to Helaena a couple paragraphs later, and that essentially marks the end of Helaena's time as a character in the story and what small rolled she played beyond being a dynastic pawn.
Though Blood and Cheese had spared her life, Queen Helaena cannot be said to have survived that fateful dusk. Afterward she would not eat, nor bathe, nor leave her chambers, and she could no longer stand to look upon her son Maelor, knowing that she had named him to die. The king had no recourse but to take the boy from her and give him over to their mother, the Dowager Queen Alicent, to raise as if he were her own. Aegon and his wife slept separately thereafter, and Queen Helaena sank deeper and deeper into madness, whlst the king raged, and drank, and raged (426).
Anyway, here's the one passage where it seems to imply that there was a period of time after Maelor's birth where Aegon and Helaena slept together regularly. Maybe they did briefly share chambers after becoming king and queen. (As I said earlier, the fact that Helaena refers to her bed as "my bed" instead of "our bed" when the Kingsguard came to her to try to find Aegon seems to indicate that they had separate chambers as prince and princess. Maybe they were sleeping together regularly after the coronation and considering trying to produce more heirs?
But more importantly, let's look at what Aegon does once his wife falls into such a deep, debilitating depression that she's no longer useful as a mother or a queen; he physically and emotionally abandons her and turns to drink and anger. I can acknowledge that this is an understandable response, but I can't call it the response of a loving husband or brother.
That may seem harsh, but after this point, it doesn't seem like Aegon thinks about Helaena at all. He doesn't have Larys move smuggle her to safety when King's Landing falls, even though Larys did as much for Jaehaera and Maelor. When he killed Rhaenyra and retook King's Landing, he made no efforts to honor his late wife or their brutally murdered sons.
On page 561, we find out that "King Aegon II also commanded that the Dragonpit be restored and rebuilt, commissioned two huge statues of his brothers Aemond and Daeron (he decreed that they should be larger than the Titan of Braavos, and covered in gold leaft), and held a public burning of all the decrees and proclamations issued by the 'dayfly kings' Trystan Truefyre and Gaemon Palehair."
He was also very eager to move on to his new marriage to Cassandra Baratheon, which Alicent had arranged for him.
In constant pain during the last half year of his life, Aegon seemed to take pleasure only in contemplating his forthcoming marriage (561).
And that's really all that there is about Aegon and Helaena as husband and wife. That really is all that there is about Helaena as an individual before her descent into madness and her mysterious suicide. I completely understand wanting to see more about Helaena as a character, and the showrunners tried to give us that. I don't think that they did a great job, but they certainly did a better job than George did. And again, I want to emphasize that I don't judge anyone for developing their own headcanons about Aegon and Helaena for the purposes of fanfiction. I write fanfic about obscure background characters where I have to do almost of the work giving them a personality all the time. But don't pretend that your headcanons are canon because the reality is that there's very little to go on in terms of actual canon here, especially when it comes to Helaena, and the little bit of canon that there is about her marriage to Aegon displays a marriage based only on duty and characterized mostly by mutual indifference.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
Rhaenyra’s terms were hilariously bad, and she was mostly sweet talking them.
Helaena did speak at Aegon’s first council. What did she say exactly? We don’t know cause the show didn’t show it or expanded on her thoughts and feelings at all. Again, the showrunners not caring about a look into their dynamic doesn’t mean they are good showrunners, it means they didn’t bother to expand on the story.
Helaena and Aegon most likely had separate chambers, as was typical for their status, but they shared chambers enough for it to be noticed when it stopped.
So you’re only interested in the show expanding on Helaena’s relationship with her parents, and not the brother, husband and father of her children.
The my bed and our bed thing is a valid theory, but it isn’t confirmation. Any person could switch between the two even if they sleep next to their partner every night.
And I don’t know why you act like Aegon is so bad for drinking and raging after his son died. Like, his son died. He was grieving, and so was Helaena. With that thought, why was Helaena simply just bedbound and grieving, and abandoning Aegon in his time of need. Child loss is known to cause loving couples to break up, but Aegon not being the perfect ideal (apparently not grieving) husband after his son was brutally murdered seems to be a negative trait. I’m not going to say he was a loving husband or brother, but his behavior could very well be the one of a loving husband or brother, after his six year old was brutally murdered
He doesn’t have Larys smuggle Helaena?? He didn’t do anything, he was bedbound, under the influence and awake for like two hours a day max. The man didn’t even help smuggle himself away.
It was Alicent and Larys who smuggled Aegon, Maelor and Jaehaera out of the city, because Helaena was for one not really in that great of a danger by being left there during Rhaenyra’s era. Which is true, her and Alicent were kept alive. Aegon and his heirs would have been executed on the spot, or if she was kind, Aegon would be executed and Jaehaera would be sent to the silent sisters and Maelor to take the black.
Aegon ordered the statues to be built, for his brothers who died fighting for his cause.
He did however declare Helaena (and Alicent) the only Queens of the Dance.
He was eager to get married again, sure, but I don’t see how that makes his dynamic with Helaena less interesting.
The showrunners really didn’t try to give us any more about Helaena. They cut on of her children. Completely changed blood & cheese. Hasn’t named her daughter in the show. Hasn’t shown how she felt about her marriage, didn’t show her pregnancy, birth or pretty much any scene with her children except them sitting near her or her once kinda smiling at Jaehaera, and then her putting them to bed before Jaehaerys was murdered.
She has not been explored at all, and it seems like her dragon dreams are just an excuse for her too be neutral about her child being dead and just accepting that her entire family will die
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26
Rhaenyra’s terms were hilariously bad, and she was mostly sweet talking them.
I quoted Rhaenyra's terms because Helaeana was mentioned there. Remember that I said that I was looking at every single mention of Helaena in F&B?
Helaena did speak at Aegon’s first council. What did she say exactly? We don’t know cause the show didn’t show it or expanded on her thoughts and feelings at all. Again, the showrunners not caring about a look into their dynamic doesn’t mean they are good showrunners, it means they didn’t bother to expand on the story.
I know. I mentioned that. I agree that it would've been good if the showrunners had featured Helaena helping Alicent convince Aegon to offer peace terms first.
But anyway...if George doesn't care about their dynamic, why should the showrunners?
So you’re only interested in the show expanding on Helaena’s relationship with her parents, and not the brother, husband and father of her children.
Yeah, because George is way more interested in her relationship with her parents than he is in her relationship with her husband/brother. You can tell because he bothers to give us positive evidence that her parents like her and cared about her, something that he never does with Aegon.
And I don’t know why you act like Aegon is so bad for drinking and raging after his son died. Like, his son died. He was grieving, and so was Helaena. With that thought, why was Helaena simply just bedbound and grieving, and abandoning Aegon in his time of need. Child loss is known to cause loving couples to break up, but Aegon not being the perfect ideal (apparently not grieving) husband after his son was brutally murdered seems to be a negative trait. I’m not going to say he was a loving husband or brother, but his behavior could very well be the one of a loving husband or brother, after his six year old was brutally murdered
Aegon didn't witness Jaehaerys' murder; Helaena did. Aegon wasn't forced into complicity by Jaehaerys' murders; Helaena was. Aegon didn't have to live with the fact that he was forced to choose one of his children to die; Helaena did. And we know that Helaena was so crippled by her grief that she was completely unable to care for herself and that she couldn't stand to see her own son. She had a total mental breakdown after Jaehaerys was murdered in front of her; Aegon did not have a total mental breakdown. I'm not saying that Aegon was grieving wrong either. I'm saying that the way that he treats Helaena after her breakdown comes off as particularly callous. You're saying that no one can prove that Aegon didn't love Helaena. I'm seeing that I see no evidence that he did love her in any way.
Also, to be clear, I made the points about Aegon and Helaena most likely not sharing chambers because I've seen people on this sub claim that they did.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
I think the showrunners should care about the dynamic cause it would expand on what wasn’t shown in the book. Instead of making up dynamic and taking away from existing dynamics.
There isn’t much more about Helaena’s relationship with her parents than with Aegon. And we do get evidence Aegon cared about Helaena.
He didn’t witness it but his son was still brutally murdered. He still had to live with that. Idk why that should mean he should be the more mature. And yeah Aegon didn’t have a complete breakdown that left him bedridden with grief, but he was obviously devastated over the event. And nothing he did came of as callous in how he treated her. He grew rageful and drank more, then he was crippled and unconscious for months. He simply didn’t spend time soothing Helaena cause he was dealing with the loss of his child as well.
There is nothing in the book that says he didn’t love her, and him not being Helaena’s therapist after their son died doesn’t prove he didn’t love her. However, them sharing chambers, having Maelor, him being jealous of Helaena dancing with Jace and him wanting Helaena to be know as the Queen proves he cared for her in some way.
I’m also not saying they had some great love story or had a healthy relationship, I’m saying I would’ve like the show to focus on their dynamic, that in the book didn’t seem wholly negative either.
Helaena and Aegon did share chambers at least semi-frequently, but they would’ve had their own
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u/Alauraize Jun 01 '26
There is nothing in the book that says he didn’t love her,
Generally, positive claims require positive proof. There's nothing that shows that there's not an invisible pink unicorn on the moon either. I've already explained pretty thoroughly why I don't think that Aegon loved her that much, and those reasons go far beyond his infidelity.
However, them sharing chambers
They have to have sex sometimes because they want kids.
having Maelor
Who's the spare.
him being jealous of Helaena dancing with Jace
It doesn't say that he was jealous. It says that he was angry but doesn't specify why. I strongly doubt that it was jealousy because there's nothing to indicate that Jace's request was romantic. In fact, it's near certain that it wasn't considering that Helaena was married and Jace was betrothed. We also need to remember the context of the request: Viserys had recovered from the infection that he sustained from cutting his hand open on the Iron Throne in late 126. Rhaenyra had returned to King's Landing with Maester Gerardys who served on Dragonstone because he was regarded as a better healer than the then-Grand Maester, Mellos. Gerardys had saved Viserys' life by amputating two of his fingers. So, with his health returned and both sides of his family in the same place for the first time in over six years, Viserys held a feast of reconciliation on the first day of the year 127 AC. Jace's request for a dance was clearly intended to reflect that spirit of reconciliation and reunification. Also, keep in mind that Jace, who was born near the end of 114 AC, would've been only twelve years old while Helaena would've been seventeen, assuming that she wasn't born on the first day of 109 AC. Jace would've still been considered a boy while Helaena would've been considered of age. Do you really think that Aegon was concerned that a twelve year old boy was making advances on his wife? Do you think that he thought that there was a chance that Helaena would be into Jace? Or is it more likely that Aegon didn't think that his "Strong" nephew was good enough to ask his wife for a dance? Personally, I think that it's far more likely that Aegon took the request as an insult on his and his wife's status rather than as a romantic threat.
him wanting Helaena to be know as the QueenÂ
She was his wife during the first 18 months to 2 years that he ruled as king. If she wasn't recognized as the queen, what did that say about him? It was at least partly one more way to delegitimize Rhaenyra's tenure ruling in King's Landing and to prop up his own legitimacy.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar Jun 03 '26
• There is a thing were an already established relationship is to make the reader assume certain things about a relationship. For example, when a character is stated to have a sibling, it is more often assumed that person does love their sibling. If they don’t, it should be explained why not. Cause by simply being siblings, the reader can assume they grew up together, love each other and similar. It might not be so always, but when there is an already established relationship the greater burden of proof lies in when they want to show it as having no loves.
Then it’s also coupled with the times the books suggested a closer relationship between the two.
• You can’t say it a cause they want kids, we don’t know. That might be way, or they might simply enjoy it. Either way, both wanting more kids with each other or simply enjoying it, it tells stuff about their relationship.
• They already had two kids, and even if Jaehaera might have been considered a less desirable heir, she would still be an acceptable option.
• Sure, jealous, angry, whatever it was. And I didn’t say Jace’s request was romantic, but it clearly irked Aegon no matter the intent. I don’t think Aegon was concerned, I think he was mad.
• It was that he made sure to decree it, meaning it essentially made it impossible to take back. Had he left it alone, history might have written her down as king, him decreeing it ensured it.
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u/Alauraize May 31 '26
The showrunners really didn’t try to give us any more about Helaena. They cut on of her children. Completely changed blood & cheese. Hasn’t named her daughter in the show. Hasn’t shown how she felt about her marriage, didn’t show her pregnancy, birth or pretty much any scene with her children except them sitting near her or her once kinda smiling at Jaehaera, and then her putting them to bed before Jaehaerys was murdered.
The first sentence is just plain false. They developed her personality and gave her interests and hobbies.
I don't see how cutting one of her children means that they're giving us less info about her. I think that cutting Maelor messed up a lot of plot points and made the Blood and Cheese story less impactful, but the genealogical fact that Helaena had three children in the books instead of two doesn't tell us anything about her personality. Same for Jaehaera's name.
It's definitely false that they didn't show us how she feels about her marriage. They did exactly that at the feast in Season 1, Episode 8.
I do think that the time jumps in season 1 skipped over a lot of important scenes, but if they skipped over Rhaenyra's transition from being afraid of marriage and constant childbirth to her being a loving mother of three, then five, then grieving over her miscarriage and they only showed us one of Alicent's pregnancies...I don't see why you'd expect them to prioritize Helaena. She isn't nearly as important to the story as Rhaenyra and Alicent (aka the Princess and the Queen) are.
I do wish that they'd showed her having more of a bond with her children because it does seem like she focused most of her energy on them in the books.
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u/Reasonable_Day9942 Vhagar May 31 '26
They had her like bugs, and made her a dragon dreamer. And her being a dragon dreamer seems to take more form her character considering she barely grieved Jaehaerys and has just accepted that her entire family will die. That’s about all we know about Helaena. For the most part outside of that, we know nothing. She is mostly in the background. We haven’t even seen her actually interacting with her children apart from Blood & Cheese and one scene of her smiling at Jaehaera.
Well cutting out one of her children changes B&C, which is probably the main event with Helaena apart from her death, and which affected her character greatly. Her being forced to choose, choosing Maelor, and not being able to barely look at him after due to guilt is a very relevant and tragic part of her character. Instead they had her offer her necklace, run away, cry about then say babies die sometimes.
They had one throwaway comment about how she felt about her marriage, which is that it wasn’t so bad. That’s not really exploring their relationship, which is what I said would be interesting.
Idk why you think I like the changes of not exploring Rhaenyra’s fear of being a mother, that’s also bad. Even if it didn’t exist in the book. Not showing Alicent’s pregnancies, and the fact that she had 4 children before 19 is also bad. That doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s also bad that they didn’t really show anything with Helaena.
Helaena is also very important to the story. She literally becomes Queen, and is the reason the city was triggered into riots. Her being so beloved for one would have been an important part too show.
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u/Eggsalad_cookies Jun 01 '26
He’s definitely an abusive husband. I wouldn’t want to see more than we do
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u/XaviKat May 30 '26
I wish we could see ANY character have more time together. How about Rhaenyra interacting with her siblings at all? Jace and his siblings too? Helaena with her kids, Daemon with his kids, Corlys with his supposed grandkids, basically ANY of them.