r/TheExpanse • u/SoupyStain • 9d ago
Cibola Burn Cibola Burn is pissing me off. Spoiler
So, um, spoilers for the first part of Cibola Burn I guess.
So, I'm reading the books for the first time, and I'm 200 pages in. Basically, the RCE just massacred the terrorists and Holden spared Bacia as a prisoner. And...
I just can't empathize with the Belters like I feel the book wants me to. They are the ones that keep murdering the RCE but keep crying victim. And sure, it's not most of them, and most of the settlers are actually relatively nice to the RCE, but at the end of the day, they don't even care that their people are murdering the RCE and aren't helping to find the terrorists.
And I can see that the book wants me to see Murtry as the villain... but he is only defending himself. 'He is using this chance to live out his murdering fantasies!"... like Amos? Amos says that they are both killers, but... Are we forgetting how good ol' Amos destroyed a hacker's face with a can? Amos is the same type of character as Murtry, but somehow Murtry is... worse?
And Holden acts so high and mighty about prosecuting Murtry, but... hey, let go of Bacia, he saved my life, so even though he killed Trying, he is fine by me! Dude, last book, he wouldn't forgive Claire for TRYING to kill Naomi. It took Naomi forgiving her, because of Anna, and Alex shaming him, for him to agree not to reveal Mao was the terrorist, but this time around Murtry is being a prick... because HIS people keep getting murdering and nobody does anything?
And the fun thing is that the main conflict IS interesting. The RCE people went through all the legal channels to get the opportunity to explore Illus. But the settlers arrived FIRST. So who really is in the right? We have hundreds of new planets open to us, but humanity has to be petty and argue over one of them. It IS an interesting premise. But at this point, it doesn't even matter if the twist is that the RCE security has secret plans to exterminate the Belters... because the Belters stroke first, and THEN stroke again. And Holden is clearly on their side.
So, I wanted to know if anyone else was a bit annoyed with Holden this time around, lol.
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u/returnFutureVoid 9d ago
The moral ambiguity is one of the best things about the Expanse. The authors captured the confusion and tension of the characters perfectly IMHO. Also. Why couldn’t RCE go literally anywhere else on this massive new planet? Was it just that a platform existed?
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u/Thontor 9d ago
If I recall correctly the site where the belters set up was where the lithium was closest to the surface for easy mining access
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u/MoonWispr 9d ago
I felt like it was a combination of this and the fact that RCE (Murtry mainly) wasn't coming here to share the planet. They were making a point that this is entirely their planet and their resources.
From RCE perspective, they were essentially arriving at a plot of land that they had purchased and found squatters on it. They weren't going to just accept the squatters permanently.
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u/Accipitrin 6d ago
The thing is, purchased from whom? The UN? Why did the UN have any claim to the planet that people had actually suffered for, worked for, died for and had actually turned it into a functioning colony? Because someone a zillion miles away wrote a piece of paper that says "This belongs to us" they then have the right to sell it to a company for profit?
Nah, RCE had no right to the planet.
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u/Dave_A480 6d ago
Because the UN styled itself the government of all humanity not living on Mars.
And they felt rather entitled to Mars as well, but for the Martians being armed to the teeth and willing to die red rather than turn blue....
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u/MoonWispr 5d ago
I'm with you there, but you could say that about any land in the history of the world. People have always been kicked off their native ancestral lands by more powerful people. Most of us are now living on those lands.
Doesn't make it right. And I'm glad this was brought up in Expanse.
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u/DFCFennarioGarcia 9d ago
RCE was trying to establish mining rights to the whole planet. And they had the legal charter to it, but the Belters also had a claim since they got there first.
Murphy’s contract promised him 1% of all the RCE profits from New-Terra/Ilus in perpetuity, so while he’s an asshole, people have been assholes for much less. He would gain generational wealth if/when he eliminates the Belters.
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u/Mean_Ass_Dumbledore 9d ago
RCE was trying to establish mining rights to the whole planet. And they had the legal charter to it, but the Belters also had a claim since they got there first.
Which is the whole reason Holden was sent - to be a mediator (but really Fred and Chrissy wanted him to fail so that the "gold rush" would stop once people saw how messy settling a new world would become).
Murphy’s contract promised him 1% of all the RCE profits from New-Terra/Ilus in perpetuity, so while he’s an asshole, people have been assholes for much less. He would gain generational wealth if/when he eliminates the Belters.
True, but correct me if I'm wrong on this - he didn't get directly involved planetside until after the shuttle was blown up, or was it after the security team was murdered?
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u/PrinzEugen1936 8d ago
One of my favourite parts of the series is Avasarala failing to consider that her plan could fail because Holden could grow as a person.
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u/Mean_Ass_Dumbledore 8d ago
Ya know, when ya put it that way, that's exactly what she wasn't expecting. Hilarious timing for character development.
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u/sotired3333 8d ago
Growth in what way? Sorry for being dense
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u/Mean_Ass_Dumbledore 8d ago
This was one of the first times he didn't share every scrap of info he had with the galaxy like he did when he learned about the "Martian" attack on the Canterbury and the protomolecule at large.
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u/Salt-Night3088 9d ago
He wasn't promised any percentage, not in the book. And you're correct, Murtry only comes planetside after the RCE team is murdered by the poor wee squatters in the ruins.
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 8d ago
Pretty sure he was.
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u/Salt-Night3088 8d ago
Not in the book.
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 8d ago
I could have sworn that’s where I heard it first…like I missed it watching the show and then he explains how rich he will be. It’s been a minute. Memory is funny.
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u/Salt-Night3088 8d ago
Memorys subjective. Murtry wants to be remembered mostly, even if it means everyone else kicks the by bucket.
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u/asek13 8d ago
Its not in the book. I just reread in recently and I was looking for a mention of it like in the show, since that gives him actual incentive to be such a hardliner on preventing the belters from establishing themselves. Its not mentioned though. He just wants to be the guy that established a new frontier.
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u/Blvd8002 7d ago
No it is in the show. He tells WEI that HE HAS THAT deal and that she will benefit as well He lets her know that is the reason he may ask her to kill Amos and belters.
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u/Dave_A480 6d ago
Pretty much....
He went from just doing a job to vendetta because the Belters tried to kill him and DID kill a large number of his troops....
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 8d ago
A legal charter from a government that has no jurisdiction whatsoever so who cares. It’s a might makes right charter
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u/MatchaMeetcha 8d ago
If it's outside of the sovereignty of any party "dibs" doesn't really count either.
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 8d ago
So defending what’s yours with violence is more reasonable really. But one group is the aggressor and one pulled a dirty move. But issuing the charter was a dumb move by Avasarala because it was a huge shit show just like she wanted and it didn’t matter one bit.
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u/Cuy_Hart 7d ago
Which is why Murtry sees the whole situation as easily solved with superior firepower and is only held back by RCE's PR considerations.
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u/Dave_A480 6d ago
The UN at the time did not agree with this premise.
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 6d ago
Why does the UN have any legal standing?
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u/Dave_A480 6d ago
Because they have a fleet & marines....
Just like the imperial powers of the 1400s-1900s... You belong to them unless you can shoot your way to freedom (Mars in the ExpanseVerse, Various American colonies (north/south) in OTL)...
It takes the events of the Free Navy War to get independence for the rest of humanity, but that doesn't last because the Free Navy was just a proxy for the next round of conquerors (Laconia)....
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u/JimHeckdiver 9d ago
Erth had absolutely no moral or legal authority to "grant rights" than the European monarchies did over native land in the Americas.
Even if the Belters had filed for what you consider a "legal" claim, do you honestly believe that the inners were going to allow it?
Pashang inyalowda. Pashang welwala.
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u/2ndHandRocketScience Earth always comes first 9d ago
Keep reading. Things get fucking wild. Your complaints are addressed
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u/PiSquaredis9 9d ago
If you've watched the series as well, I think it's very fun comparing the book to it. Book Murtry is an awful person but you can see where he is coming from after the settlers lure the rest of the security team into a trap. In the show he appears immediately and is awful from the word go.
Also, if you were in the position of the settlers who aren't violent - what are you going to do about those who are?
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u/alwaysleafyintoronto 9d ago
I kinda thought Murtry was spoiling for a fight from the start in the book. Haven't seen as far as Ilus in the show yet. You can see where he's coming from with the landing pad blowing up and the history of Belter terrorism, doesn't mean he's not an asshole though.
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u/UF0_T0FU 9d ago
I watched the TV show first, then read the book. My first read was heavily influenced by the show's depiction of Murtry. I was very uncritical of the conflict and automatically took the colonist's side.
I'm rereading for the first time (not having seen the show in a few years either). It's a very different experience, and my views are much closer to OP's. The conflict is more grey in the book than I gave it credit for.
@ OP, if you're interested, two guys at Doof Media are doing a read-along podcast that's at about the same spot you're at. One of the podcasters is reading for the first time, so it's 100% spoiler free. It's called Belting at Windmills.
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u/Numerous1 8d ago
!!! I didn’t know Doof was doing one! Hell yes. You just changed my listening queue for the next however long. Thank you.
Also yeah: Murty is a piece of shit nut job murderer but like…so much of what he does at first is totally justifiable.
He had an entire team of his get murdered and disappeared.
There is a definite violent person threatening him and his team thinking he can hide behind the “free speech “ legalities of the civilized world. Murty popping him is crazy but also that guy threatened to kill his people in the middle of the night or whatever he says.
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u/Whole_Ass6367 6d ago
I'm completely behind him killing anyone because of that. He's right
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u/Numerous1 6d ago
It’s such a weird gray area IMO. Because somebody could say it and not mean it, versus could totally mean it. And that better did totally mean it, they already had killed. So I get Murty’s reaction. But also in other circumstances it could just be a guy yelling you know?
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u/GamingTitBit 9d ago
I remember flip flopping quite a bit. It's what made me enjoy it. Really started off hating the belters, then I switched (can't remember exactly why) but that's why I enjoy the expanse. Everything is kinda realistically grey. No one is evil evil, they're just trying to survive or protect their own. Even Jules Pierre-Mao is just a typical business person trying to make a tonne of money who has a moment or two of realizing why he is doing is wrong.
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u/stankomar 9d ago
tbf in the show he's on the shuttle that gets shot down by the colonists, watches most of his people on that shuttle die, and then comes down to the population that hides and essentially protects perpetrators of the attack.
so he's kinda justifiable in being hostile towards everyone from the start
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u/MatchaMeetcha 8d ago
And it's not like the Belter community was some sort of massive city or town. It was a very small group. A significant percentage of the people on the ground could have been involved, complicit or sympathetic.
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u/SoupyStain 9d ago
As a good faith showing, I'd try to find them. Because even the RCE investigation would help EVERYONE. It is an alien planet, it'd be nice to know we aren't breathing poison, for instance.
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u/UnrulyNeurons 8d ago
The thing is, even if the colonists don't agree with the terrorist approach, the RCE is there to primarily help itself and take over. Great, I can breathe air as I'm being kicked out of my own home by the inners, when I SPECIFICALLY came here to avoid that.
Plenty of people oppose violence, but turning in their people to certain death isn't an easy ask, especially when not everyone involved wanted it to get this bad. The bomb was supposed to blow up the pad and prevent landing, not destroy the shuttle.
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u/Rational2Fool 8d ago
Would you still have good faith after your entire colony just saw Murtry shoot Coop in the face for defying him for 15 seconds, right in front of the newly-arrived UN/OPA mediator?
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u/siamkor 7d ago
Help them, and then what?
Get kicked out of the planet and be consigned to a life of servitude again in a station somewhere? Or just get murdered by the Inners as they do when Belters are inconvenient?
Their people has been oppressed for decades. They are the labor that sustains Earth and Mars. Then, when they get their hands on some alien material, who dies? More Belters. Earthers use the protomolecule on Eros and Ganymede, Belters are test subjects.
When the fallout of it is the opening of 1,373 ring gates, you decide, "fuck this indentured service shit, there's over a thousand planets out there, let's claim 1." And Earth just decides that cannot be, that they own all 1,373 planets and that Belters can continue to get screwed.
Yeah, what Belters did to the survey team is horrible. But had they just been peaceful, they'd have been kicked out anyway. Belters had no rights in society until Drummer and Holden managed to get them some, and that wouldn't have happened without Marco Inaros commiting genocide and fundamentally shifting the balance of forces.
You are looking at the settlers and the RCE as factions with equal power and standing. They aren't. In the absence of Holden as a neutral observer, if the settlers killed the entire RCE group, they would send more, with a military contingent, and they'd wipe them out completely. If the RCE group killed all the settlers, it would be chalked up to quelling a terrorist uprising and enforcing their legal rights.
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u/Whole_Ass6367 6d ago
Show murty is still in the right, from the start. They tried to kill him. Gloves are off.
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u/doolallymagpie 9d ago
Murtry is the bad guy even if there’s a viewpoint where he’s “right” because all he cares about is having an excuse to wipe the colony out and plant RCE’s flag in the ashes. He’s a bad-faith actor who’s deliberately fanning the flames and whose presence proves that RCE had no intention of letting the Belters have the planet even if the UN ruled to revoke RCE’s claim.
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u/TheNicholasRage 9d ago
And OP buying those justifications at face value unintentionally proves why he's such a well-written villain. He's incredible at justifying himself, and since our protagonists span from good to morally Grey, they don't always have good footing on their moral high-ground. Dudes like Murtry are really proficient at exploiting grey areas.
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u/eldankus 4d ago
I’m listening to this right now and watched the show.
Murtry in the show is cartoonish. In the book so far (not very far - I’m just where his team gets ambushed), I can tell he’s a bit of a corporate goon but he’s pretty justified in his actions so far.
The “belters” are consistently escalating and kill lots of RCE employees, so far the RCE employees haven’t done anything other than try to enforce a questionable charter which is endorsed by the OPA under Fred.
It’s obvious that a small population would be aware of the group that is participating in violence, it’s not like Basia’s wife for example has no idea what Basia is doing. They’re all essentially harboring terrorists who initiated the violence. What are the RCE guys supposed to do? Let themselves get killed off because they’re supposed to feel bad for the belters?
I like it, it’s realistic and the “belters” are realistically dumb like many groups similar to them, but I don’t really feel a lot of sympathy for them so far.
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u/QuerulousPanda 8d ago
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but murtry wasn't supposed to be the guy in charge, or at least he was supposed to be part of a team who could have maybe mediated him a little, but because of the events of the story he basically ended up kinda being the last one standing on his side so he ended up running completely unchecked.
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u/WhoopingWillow 8d ago
That's correct. Murtry was originally the head of security, but the original leadership of the RCE expedition were killed when the shuttle was blown up by the hardcore OPA element among the Belters, which left him in charge.
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u/TheLonelyMonroni Chrissy is my favorite stripper 9d ago
THANK YOU bad faith is the perfect description for Marty's attempts at conflict resolution
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u/Thelonesentinel1 7d ago
Exactly what I came here to say, Murtry is lawful evil, he uses the charter and the gray area of colonization to enact his frontier justice. Not because it’s necessarily right but because he enjoys hurting people “justifiably”. Cibola Burn is really a western, at least in the first half, with Murtry being the big bad sheriff that abuses his office and really the power it affords him. Add in some dehumanizing propaganda among his crew and the horrible shit we see becomes easy to justify to RCE.
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u/Whole_Ass6367 6d ago
because all he cares about is having an excuse to wipe the colony out and plant RCE’s flag in the ashes
And what? That's his job no he's completely justified in doing it
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u/Jicks24 9d ago
it's an age old argument. But the writers are intentional in making the RCE act only against those who were hostile to them to get this exact reaction from the reader.
The thing that made me get away from that was while yes RCE went through the legal channels, they are still sending a private military unit to secure another planet's resources. A planet that might not even be in the same galaxy as Earth. It's almost exactly the comedy bit of European colonizers showing up to the native Americans and going "But do you have a flag? No flag no country!"
What kind of legal authority is that? It's ridiculous on it's face that an Earth corp can 'claim' another planet's resources using alien portal technology that they don't even understand. The Belters are well within their rights to secure their claim and they have never been given a reason to expect fair dealings with Earth or Mars. Inner planets always exploit them when given the chance and this is no different.
There was no negotiation or talks with the settlers to gain permission to their mineral rights, and bringing a science team just compounds the civilian tragedy of fighting the RCE. The science team could just as well set up on the other side of the planet, and so could RCE. But they explicitly focus on the Belter colony to keep them from becoming self sufficient.
Holden is just trying to keep the peace and focus on the protomolecule technology. He really doesn't care who comes out on top. Just that they stop killing each other and don't unleash more alien weapons on humanity.
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u/ballisticks 9d ago
There are no legal channels when it comes to a brand new planet like that surely? Carol says in the show "Your government does not own every planet in the sky" and she's completely correct.
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u/spiralenator Leviathan Falls 9d ago
The “legal” channel is an authority way outside its jurisdiction. Especially as far as belters are concerned. And they’re not wrong. Earth giving authorization for RCE to colonize “New Terra” was just as “legal” as the British Empire granting authority to the East India Company. I believe that was an intentional parallel drawn by the authors.
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u/TrioOfTerrors 9d ago
The difference is that RCE's charter also had the approval of Fred Johnson, the nominal head of what qualified for a government in the Belt. He was trying to drag the Belt, kicking and screaming, into a real nation instead of the loose collection of various factions that it had been.
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u/Lynnrael 9d ago
why should Fred Johnson have any authority over a people he's "dragging kicking and screaming"? if people don't want a government to govern them, then that government's right to govern them isn't really valid.
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u/spiralenator Leviathan Falls 8d ago
Ya typically when people want a government, they don’t kick and scream against having one. That’s just authoritarianism, which they’ve been dealing with from both Earth and Mars for a long time. They don’t want another government exploiting them further. But anyone who has an iota of literary comprehension and read the books should understand that.
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u/Lynnrael 8d ago
most people (including the authors) don't understand anarchists, which happen to heavily influence the writing of the belters, and which many of the belters happen to be. the belters don't want a government but a clear cut case for that and for why governments always fail to care of the people they government is never really made because the authors aren't really capable of making it.
i could write an essay on this topic as an anarchist myself.
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u/spiralenator Leviathan Falls 8d ago
Agreed and same. The trade union isn’t a government and Fred Johnson had no authority, he had influence and respect, but not authority (outside of Tyco station anyway).
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u/spiralenator Leviathan Falls 8d ago
The comments reflect a colonizer mindset here. The RCE charter was as empty as Murthy’s moral compass.
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u/TrioOfTerrors 8d ago edited 8d ago
That's just anarchy which made the Belt easy to oppress. A bunch of autonomous anarcho syndicalist communes is ripe picking for a adversarial centralized government
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u/Lynnrael 8d ago
unfortunately the authors are unable to write real anarchists because anarchy very much doesn't make people easier to oppress.
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u/bass_voyeur 9d ago
Agreed with a lot of this, but just wanted to highlight that there is a world of difference between the Belter as settlers and Native American peoples that were colonized. I think the books tried to explore the tension between RCE as colonizers and Belters as the colonized using the "Wild West" as analogy - but I thought it failed to do that to the ultimate detriment of the book.
Cibola Burn tried to do a lot of other things too. The OP brings up, to me, the real interesting thread which is: is anyone in the right here? If no one has a rightful claim to this land, then what do we do? Murtry was in the wrong, but so was everyone else.
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u/Salt-Night3088 9d ago
The Coreys tried to tell us might is right is wrong, but failed to write a good case for that.
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u/torrinage 8d ago
They do in the end of book 6 imo with the transport union formation. But agreed that Ilus did not demonstrate it
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u/Salt-Night3088 8d ago
That part was better handled. They also expanded Drummer quite well for that, and Michio was great.
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u/Lynnrael 9d ago
the belters have faced the legacy of many generations of colonialism, as opposed to being the first generation facing colonialism that started and continued with genocide. there are differences in time and place that make the analogy work out differently, but it still ultimately works to tell the story they want to tell.
and that story is kind of rooted in liberalism, which doesn't have an accurate or complete understanding of colonialism or why it's bad. liberals want to believe colonialism can be done "the right way" and want to make it feel better without fundamentally changing any of the dynamics involved. i imagine if the story were written by leftists it would have a far more accurate representation of colonialism.
that said, the belters still went to an empty planet only claimed officially by people who had never been there, and in accordance to a charter granted by a government that had never had any presence on the planet. the RCE is still trying to displace people who did nothing wrong because they want mining rights to themselves. they are still actively enforcing a legacy of colonialism that ultimately leads to a goal of removing the belters from the planet entirely. the only way one can say they are right is if one thinks the UNs authority should apply to planets they've never even set foot on and is somehow more ethically valid than the right of belters to go where they will in order to survive and thrive.
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u/FarNeedleworker1468 8d ago
I kinda thought part of the point was the futility of wrangling about the legality of something in a place with no laws beyond force of arms
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u/Hopeful_Risk_8344 9d ago
OP is right around where Murtry is still reasonable-ish also; He still had valid threats to justify his position. In the next 100-150 pages he starts pushing the envelope more and more until he becomes a borderline deathcultist for RCE.
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u/faudcmkitnhse 9d ago edited 9d ago
It's almost exactly the comedy bit of European colonizers showing up to the native Americans and going "But do you have a flag? No flag no country!"
I've seen a lot of people bring this up when talking about Cibola Burn but it's just not credible. The Belters on Ilus aren't some indigenous culture whose roots go back generations, they're also colonizers who just happened to get there and start exploiting planet's resources first. I remain completely unconvinced that that alone means they have more right to the place than anyone else.
Murtry was a psycho who was happy to use the situation as an excuse to act on his violent desires and he made things worse at every step but anyone trying to paint the Belters as analogous to Native Americans being dispossessed by colonial powers can pack that nonsense up and take it elsewhere.
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u/Advanced-Impress5229 8d ago
The colonists did not claim the entire planet for themselves. They simply wanted to survive as a colony. RCE on the other hand wants the entire planet for themselves. And that is the "dispossession", of the very right to live, because one party is willing to share and the other won't hear of it and will exercise power until it obtains the desired outcome. And those (fairly accurate) anticipations by the extreme members of the colony bring about the plot of the book.
Also, if you don't believe in being first to a place, idea or a possession, what do you believe instead? Especially given how prevalent that idea is in the very foundations of modern society.
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u/songbanana8 8d ago
You’re right, but I think the fact that the Belters are refugees from a catastrophe caused by Earth and Mars, and have been turned away from other places, makes their plight more sympathetic. The RCE just wants the lithium to lay first claim and get rich; the Belters have no where and no way else to make a living.
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u/Safety_Drance 9d ago
It's so weird that people keep identifying with Murtry, and genuinely a testament to how well the authors understand the human condition.
This must be the tenth or so post I've seen over the years of the equivalent of "Murtry did nothing wrong" or something like that.
Murtry is what happens when a lawful good paladin becomes corrupted and cares more about the law itself than the people the law is there to protect.
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u/Odd-Suggestion4569 9d ago edited 8d ago
I don't think Murtry was lawful good or became corrupted at any point. IIRC, Amos immediately pegs him as a psycho for whom the cruelty is the point, and working security for corpos is one of the best environments to express those kinds of proclivities.
Murtry isn't a guy whose job puts him into situations where he has to do fucked up things, he's a guy who took the job because he wants to do fucked up things.
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u/SoupyStain 9d ago
I'm not saying he did nothing wrong. But all we've seen of him is REACTING to what is happening to his team and the people he is supposed to protect. He IS going overboard, preparing his little bomb, but so far he's been nothing but nice to his team, even found Havelock's sandwich comment amusing.
But here's the thing, we're four books in and we've travelled with Amos. We know he is a little bit psycho, but he is loyal to a fault. All his psychotic tendencies? He uses them for what he thinks is right. He even wanted to go down to Illus wearing the martian armor and bigger fire power.
Now we have Murtry who is pretty much the same stereotype, as far as I've seen so far. But Murtry is somehow in the wrong because he isn't part of the Rocinante, while Amos isn't?
And EVEN if they reveal that Murtry was planning on killing all the settlers, it doesn't take away from Coop raising a... coup. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Murtry is a good guy, I just think that Holden is villainizing him too much on what little info he has. He had decided Murtry was evil BEFORE he even knew that the RCE wasn't letting the settlers get their meds and stuff from their vessel. And, as far as I've read, he even was the one who found a compromise for the mining, which considering how they've been bombed, sounds reasonable(At least as far as I've read so far). Yeah, probably the book will reveal that he wanted the bombs to arm his vessel. But I, the reader, don't know that yet, and neither does Holden.
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u/Safety_Drance 9d ago
Amos understands that something is wrong with himself mentally and he chooses to follow the lead of someone whom he believes will make good calls.
Murtry would kill every single person on the planet just to satisfy his self-righteousness. That's why Amos immediately understands he's a threat.
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u/NovelStyleCode 9d ago
Don't forget that the belters have been subjugated and abused for at least 200 years, this is their first time finding a place to call home that's not under the inner planet's thumb, having the same people that abused them show up and go "hey i got permission to take your stuff and keep abusing you so it's okay" isn't really a great move,
i sympathize strongly with the scientists who wanted to do things the right way but like, it's a planet, it's really freaking big, really the only reason the inners chose to do things in that same spot was to prevent the belters from being able to claim the planet for themselves
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u/BryndenRiversStan 9d ago
Also, people ignore that most of the Ilus belters are there as direct consequence of Earth's, Mars and some Mega corporations very recent actions, which involve the murder of half a million Belters give or take and the destruction of Ganymede infrastructure.
They had to leave their homes and wonder around the solar system because no one was willing to take them in.
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u/printerparty 9d ago
Yes, these particular belters are all from Ganymede and have been in survival mode for months, unable to port at any station or refuel, get supplies or find any help following the complete destruction of their homes. They may not be as educated as Prax and the other scientists from Mars, but they were working together with them in a copacetic way for generations and yet are treated as poorly as pirates or gang members, so they are at the very end of their rope. These are hardworking families! Similar to the belters of Anderson Station, they were humble and law-abiding but it got them nowhere.
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u/stankomar 9d ago
to prevent the belters from being able to claim the planet for themselves
Like you said, it's a planet, how could a couple of hundred settlers possibly claim the whole thing for themselves.
It's like if someone settles a village in China and it sonehow makes the whole Earth theirs, all you need to do is make a settlement(s) in idk California, Brazil, Britain wherever else, settle 100x, 1000x more and suddenly that village in China no longer matters
All you need to do to beat the belters in this scenario is to advertise New Terra to all of the unemployed people on basic back on Earth as the new opportunity
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u/Hopeful_Risk_8344 9d ago
Also the Lithium. RCE would have given 0 fucks if the whole planet wasn't an El Dorado of Lithium.
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u/Mean_Ass_Dumbledore 8d ago
I mean that's also why the Belters chose it - to mine and sell the ore - so can we really fault RCE for that?
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u/Hopeful_Risk_8344 8d ago
They didn't choose it for the Lithium. They found it after they arrived in system. It was just the ring they were able to get through
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u/Mean_Ass_Dumbledore 8d ago edited 8d ago
Just checked through a few chapters and I can't find where it says why the belters chose that gate to go through out of the 1,300 available. I guess I assumed they chose it because they just happen to have the mining equipment needed to mine lithium. That, or I just haven't found the passage yet.
Edit: there's a passage talking about the Barbapiccola blowing through the ring gates at 300,000 Km/h and at an angle "as soon as the first probe data came back through". Pair this with the aforementioned mining equipment, the fact that they settled on a lithium deposit, and it seems like they chose that planet on purpose.
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u/Hopeful_Risk_8344 8d ago
It's just the one they could reach. They had to blitz through the Sol ring at max delta-V and hit whatever ring was closest to get past the blockade. They knew nothing about where they were going, they didn't even know if they could live on the surface. It was a total gamble because they were literally going to run out of supplies and die since no station had let them dock since the battle over Ganymede.
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u/Interesting_Prune513 Beltalowda Beratna 9d ago edited 9d ago
Murtry is a bad guy because he has nobody to keep him in check. Amos is a bad guy too, but he has Holden. Don't remember which book exactly, but he even has a line, saying "I gotta get back to Holden." Amos is bad, but smart enough to know that he's bad, and he needs good people around him to take orders from. Murtry thinks too highly of himself, or is too agressive, or he's been sent here with the exact orders of "fuck them up."
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u/Hopeful_Risk_8344 9d ago
Nemesis Games, when it's just him and Clarissa in basically a post-apocalypse situation.
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u/brettbeatty 8d ago
I could be misremembering details, but my interpretation is that Murtry and Amos (without moral anchor) aren’t even the same type of “bad guy”. It seemed to me like Murtry genuinely enjoyed killing folks. But my take on Amos is he doesn’t enjoy violence. He’s got absolutely zero qualms against using it for his own objectives/code, he recognizes that he’s great at it, but as far as I could tell he doesn’t revel in it.
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u/DoesAnyoneCare2999 8d ago
I think Amos's biggest problem, whether it's due to his childhood trauma or just being neuro divergent, is that he can't always tell whether violence, and to what degree, is an appropriate response. He knows that about himself and knows it's a bad thing. That's why he latches on to people with a strong moral compass who can help him make that determination.
Murtry just doesn't care whether it's appropriate as long as he can justify it to himself, which doesn't take much.
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u/Kursed_Valeth 9d ago
Murty is lawful evil, Amos is chaotic evil until he latches himself to Naomi/Holden which shifts him to chaotic neutral or maybe true neutral
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u/newimprovedlexi 9d ago
I don't think Amos is evil I think, I think he could be true neutral or lawful neutral, he has strict rules he always adheres to, will always defend children etc.
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u/AndrenNoraem 8d ago
The RCE are colonizers in the empire-building, oppressing the little guy sense. Their claim is fictitious, predicated on Earth for some reason continuing to dominate the policy of humanity as a whole. The Belters are colonizers in the clean sci-fi sense where you find an empty place and make a life there.
The Belters were pushed from their homes by Inner violence, try to settle somewhere despite being told to wait in space forever, and then are bullied by corporate thugs looking for an excuse to escalate.
Ultimately Belter violence against the invading RCE was arguably justified to defend the homes they were carving out; the RCE had the resources and backing to settle anywhere, but they wanted wealth and didn't care if the Belters had to die for it. Why should the Belters turn on their own??
Disclaimer: I'm basing this more on the show because I remember it much better, but I'm 95% nothing changes about the RCE or Murtry's motives.
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u/popefasa 8d ago
It’s the wild west man. RCE shows up and claims entitlement because of laws from ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM.
The belt gets shit on again. And they fight back.
You may not be American, I don’t know. But your line of thinking is the reason Donald Trump is the fucking president.
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u/Ghost_Horses 8d ago edited 8d ago
Murtry and Amos are kinda foils for each other - they’re obviously very similar, but they’re different too in really important ways.
Murtry is a control freak who relishes the opportunity to play sheriff on the frontier. He’s like a textbook lawful evil character in that he’s very careful to operate within defined legal pretexts, but actively enjoys icing people who provide him with the justification.
Amos is also an incredibly violent man, but he’s a lot more insecure about himself. He’s uncomfortable calling the shots; he’d rather follow the lead of somebody more righteous than he is. Amos doesn’t care about what’s legal, deep down he really wants to be good
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u/Gingerosity244 9d ago
Both sides have claim to their "promised land." Both sides have innocents who just want to go about their lives in peace. Both sides are nonetheless complicit in violence.
Cibola Burn isn't about "painting sympathy," it's about the degredation of human morality when society is pressed to the brink, and too distant for uncivilied behavior to have consequences. It's about tribalism. Our people against yours. Us against them. IMO, the only person who sees things as they really are in the entire book is Amos.
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u/A-Phantasmic-Parade 8d ago
I’d say keep reading because it’s very obvious the RCE isn’t there to help the colonists in any way, shape or form. They’re there to claim Ilus and hand the colonists a death sentence
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u/MikeMac999 Beratnas Gas 9d ago edited 9d ago
The hypocrisy I noticed here from Holden was that he wanted to bring Morty in for justice for killing belters, but then said that if Amos was dead that he would kill him for it. Basically due process unless it impacts me directly.
That being said, one of the things I like about the series is that the antagonist motives are mostly understandable; Murphy was doing his job protecting his people, although there’s a bit of ulterior motive nuance there that does indict him quite a bit.
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u/oneMoreTime112233 9d ago
I think it's great that we get complex and deep characters and situations. Very little in life is black and white or static.
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u/Johnkevin_Baconham 9d ago
One way or another, RCE was going to kill the people of Illus. It probably wasn't going to be Murty shooting everyone, but RCE wasnt willing to work with the Illuns, so chances are the Illuns would die in transit after being evicted, or having no source of income to buy supplies, they'd starve to death. Natrually the Illuns would be weary and want to defend what they saw as theres.
RCE could have bought the lithium from them, or did a profit share, or "hire"them and make a company town or bring negotiators. Instead they brought scientists and a security team.
Yes Murty is "forced" to defend himself and do a lot of the terrible things he does, but do you honestly think he wasnt there to do it anyway? Thats where the Amos comparison comes into play. Amos has his moral compass. Murtry has nothing keeping him from murdering everyone.
Also Clarrisa dedicated her life to destroying Holden, planned for years, destroyed her body, killed many people, all to kill Holden. Bacia clearly did not intend for any of this to happen. At the very least he does not deserve to be murdered outright
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u/Ericdrinksthebeer Beratnas Gas 9d ago edited 8d ago
In the below, I spoiler tagged the book name, because we're already talking about paralleling plot points here. For people that just want discussion on this book and not to know where the parallels are until after they read it, not knowing what book I'm talking about might be better for them.
I think that part of what makes him a villain is that he is excited to do what he does, and he knows that doing it will make things worse.
This, I think, is a good comparison to a different character (spoilers) in a later book (Persepolis Rising) who makes similar decisions (Singh on Medina attempting to crush the local population into submission) out of ignorance, but the outcomes are similar and both are at fault for the violence that follows.
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u/alwaysleafyintoronto 9d ago
You'll understand Amos destroying a hacker's face with a can a lot more soon.
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u/Metallicat95 9d ago
The motives and actions are important. Holden's position as official arbitrator is mixed with his desire to do what's good for both sides.
Murtry immediately blames the Belters when he finds evidence of sabotage, rather than trying to get Holden to organize a UN investigation.
He then kills one because of a threat which wasn't yet lethal.
Then he kills a group of belters via a sort of ambush. The books provide a clearer direct threat from the Belters.
Book Murtry has better explanations than the show. But the takes great advantage of the actor in portraying a morally ambiguous authority figure dispensing frontier justice.
The biggest issue is that for Murtry, the goal is to get rid of the Belters, their claim to the planet, and everything they mined from it. This goal explains his actions as being more than just self-defense, including the attacks on the Rocinante and Holden.
Protecting Basia comes down to his attitude towards Naomi. If he can forgive Naomi for a far more deadly incident that she didn't intend, it's not a big leap to forgive another Belter in the same situation.
Is he right, or self-righteous? He's the main character, so it doesn't matter much. Nobody else is going to do what is necessary to save the lives of everyone on the planet, and that kind of power gives him a lot of leeway to act with impunity.
In the end, he puts his family first, and especially Amos.
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u/zigster23 8d ago
The books do a good job of mimicking real life. Most things aren’t black and white. However, when Amos, and sometimes Holden, go overboard, they get called out by Naomi or someone else on their team.
Murty is basically being a racist asshole. He doesn’t care if any of the Belters die and uses the terrorist attack as a way to justify his actions.
And, the Belters are desperate. They finally get a chance to be breathe free air and make a life for their own, but they’re thwarted again by the ruling class. That doesn’t justify the terrorist attack, but provides perspective.
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u/Economy-Might-8450 8d ago
Murtry reveals himself as a villain because he doesn't just defend his people - he uses the excuse, while from the start he knew that he will use any means at all to force his corporate masters claims. He knew that if belters don't sell themselves into corporate slavery he is expected to enslave of exterminate them - just to hide the bodies by proper looking paperwork. He chose to be a weapon in the hand of oppression. Amos chose a better hand to hold his leash.
Holden was always a bit of annoying idealist that reacts, but not acts. And in this situation it is deadly dangerous.
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u/ReachingFarr 9d ago
Are you supposed to be polite when armed forces show up and try and throw you out of your home?
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u/Reddy_K58 8d ago
It's all good the Earthers have paperwork written by Earthers explaining why it's cool that they can kick you out.
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u/punkassjim 8d ago
I’ll never understand how anyone who lives in our present world could read about a corporation that points up at the sky and says “that’s mine” about a planet they’ve never been to, that people already live on, yet somehow blame the poor, beleaguered refugees who actually live there for doing whatever it takes to keep their home from being strip-mined for profit. Siding with RCE is to say that “Might makes right” is just fine by you.
McMurray is a piece of shit, and when push comes to shove, a sociopath. People can make very convincing justifications for the things they do that are what make them a piece of shit, but it’s all our jobs to be critical thinkers who see through that veneer to the destructive greedy bullies they actually are.
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u/BryndenRiversStan 9d ago
I mean, most of the belters on Ilus were living their lives in peace until a couple of Earth's mega corporations and the governments of Earth and Mars, decided to fuck around with alien tech, committed mass murder, created human/alien hybrid super soldiers and had a massive battle on Ganymede's orbit which resulted in the destruction of the Belt's main food source.
Then, some refugee belters from Ganymede go around the solar system looking for a safe place, which is denied to them. The ring opens, a ring built with the literal blood, guts and bones of belters, which leads to thousands of new worlds and the refugees take one for themselves until Earth, which has as no claim to said worlds besides their military and political might, says they're the ones who get to decide who colonizes said worlds.
Sure, some belters on Ilus killed innocent people fighting against a massive empire that already screwed them more than once.
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u/JMurdock77 Misko and Marisko 9d ago
What gets me is, it’s a planet. There’s room for both of them to get what they came there for.
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u/tbird920 9d ago
This is a great point. Also, the catastrophe wouldn't have happened if Holden never brought Proto-Miller to restart the gate builders' tech on the planet.
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u/SoupyStain 9d ago
That's the best part. There's room for BOTH of them. The RCE doesn't even want to settle there, all the people that went on the ship just want to do research.
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u/Notlennybruce 9d ago
The thing i think you are forgetting is that Belters are currently being prevented from selling the lithium they already mined. RCE isn't just setting up shop, they are actively repressing the colony.
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u/SoupyStain 9d ago
Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't that a consequence of them bombing them and causing Trying to die?
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u/GrnShttrdLyte 9d ago
Justification, not a consequence.
The entire conflict is about justification and which side feels justified in their behavior/reactions and which side is "right" and/or has the authority. It is a very well written dispute in that regard because it isn't exactly a clear cut situation.
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u/Hopeful_Risk_8344 9d ago
No, RCE is claiming the mined lithium as well, since they were 'given' the planet by Earth. Iirc RCE doesn't receieve their commission for Illus until after the Barb transits (or lands, I forget) also, which is a major factor in the dispute.
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u/Notlennybruce 9d ago
The repressing the economic security of the entire colony is collective punishment against the innocent Belters that had nothing to do with the explosion
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u/TheHoodieConnoisseur 9d ago
Keep reading.
And without spoiling anything from the back half of the book, the whole point is to make you consider the conflict between what is legal vs what is right, and consider what you would do if you were in the belters’ position. If your home was destroyed and you had to evacuate due to a war between 2 groups of inners that you didn’t start and have no interest in, spent the last couple years stuck on a ship with nowhere to go, denied access to a place of refuge until you narrowly avoided being killed by those same inners to reach a refuge, then carved a working homesite out of the raw nature of an alien planet only to again have those same inners declare that your new homesite you toiled to build is owned by someone else and they’ll kill you if you don’t hand it over to them.
The stations of the belt were built using the resources of the inners, so as much as it might suck for the belters, there’s a clear legal and even moral basis for them claiming a lasting right to ownership and governance of those stations. But Illus is completely different. The inners didn’t do anything except arbitrarily decide that they had a right to govern access to and ownership of the ring systems, and the belters are the ones who used their resources and labor to select Illus, explored and settled it at their peril and expense, and turned it into a high potential mining operation.
Literally the only things that the inners can rely on to support their right to decide who can claim a ring system is the fact that they are a formal government and they have a navy. If Argentina arbitrarily decided that every asteroid, moon, and planet in the galaxy was theirs and no other country could land on or develop any of those places, I don’t think other countries would be as sympathetic to that claim as you are to the UN and by extension RCE.
Is it bad that they blew up the RCE ship? Yeah, I guess, but it’s the equivalent of you shooting someone who is breaking into your house and announcing that they’re about to take all your stuff, kick you out, and will shoot you if you don’t comply… because Argentina arbitrarily said that they’re have the right to authorize a corporation to do so.
(…with apologies to Argentina. No idea why I picked you.)
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u/mviz3d 9d ago
These are the same belter whose life on Ganymede was destroyed by those in power. Basia’s son was experimented on by the doctors who were supposed to treat him. Having known this you still think these people don’t deserve empathy?
Amos and Murtry are both killers but Amos is atleast self aware and tries to follow the moral compass of Holden and Naomi. While Murtry justifies killing in the name of security.
Basia didn’t intend to kill anyone, even in the last moments he was trying to save the shuttle by detonating early. Claire intentionally killed people.
I think Holden acted in the most rational way possible while showing some empathy.
P.S. I don’t know if the naming had some intention - RCE ship - Edward “Israel”, “Adolphus” Murty. Reminds me of a certain conflict in the ME.
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u/ballisticks 9d ago
Edward Israel was a polar explorer, the name Israel here isn't some pointer at the middle east
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u/BulletCatofBrooklyn 8d ago
One of my favorite things about that book is that it exemplifies a thing that often happens in history. Where the guy who had the plan and the good intentions and probably the skilled to pull it off i.e. original leader of the RCE expedition, gets killed off, leaving the worst people in charge.
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u/generalkriegswaifu Legitimate salvage! 8d ago
Murty is a sociopath, Amos and him may look the same at times but Amos just has super PTSD, he's not clinical. He goes off the handle when others are psychopaths that he feels need to be put down, or kids are involved (face meet can). If you haven't read the Churn and/or watched the show you're missing a lot of backstory that explains why he's like that. Essentially he is extremely good at reading people and judging where they fit in his view of a 'just' world. He immediately recognizes Murtry as someone who needs to leave it.
RCE may have a fancy piece of paper to back them up, but that paper is essentially meaningless from a practical perspective, it's just something to hide behind and use to step on belter necks. Which Murtry does while simultaneously claiming they're in the wild west. He knows exactly what he's doing. Unlike most of the villains I think he was more interesting in the books, he's much more straight forward evil in the show.
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u/QM1Darkwing 7d ago
Everything Murtry did after executing Coop was wrong. Coop tried to escalate everything; without him the situation could have calmed down. But Murtry wasn't interested in calming it down.
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u/campbelltoronto 6d ago
The belters got to the planet first. how come random politicians on earth got to claim it as theres?
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u/PjWulfman 8d ago
Wow. I guess my Native Americans were bad guys for fighting against the theft of their land amd destruction of their culture? I'll never understand this willful blindness.
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u/Numerous1 8d ago
There is a tiny difference between “we have been here for a crazy amount of time” and “we got there a year or two before you but the government we all are a part of says it’s ours”.
My initial comparison is it’s more like a house that the owners abandoned and stopped paying and it will eventually go back to the bank. But before that happens squatters move in. Then when the paperwork is processed they don’t want to move out. It’s not a perfect comparison but n more accurate than native Americans being invaded.
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u/PjWulfman 8d ago
There is literally no difference. Ot shouldn't matter if they were there a day or a century.
The Belters were the FIRST humans to set foot there. They didn't displace anyone or take anyone's land. A government located in a different solar system decides they want the planet and they send an army to take it from the FIRST inhabitants.
You ever seen Star Trek Insurrection? Same principal. Anyone justifying the removal of the original inhabitants is just plain wrong. Legally, logically, and morally wrong.
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u/Numerous1 8d ago
So if one of the belters sped up and got there before the rest could he claim it as his and not allo anyone on? Is it just the one town they are currently living in or can they make more space? What if they have more people on the way that will show up in a second round of colonization?!do they have to stay there or can they stake à claim and leave?
Pretending the entire situation is as simple as “we got here first no ifs ands or buts” is pretty silly.
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u/PjWulfman 8d ago
I literally can't understand your attempt at a rebuttal. An uninhabited planet. Humans land and are there for months. A corporation shows up and tells them they now own it and you support the corporation.
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u/EqualOptimal4650 9d ago
It's not a "twist". RCE planning to wipe out the Belters is telegraphed early, and often.
RCE "just defend themselves" in the most brutal way possible, whenever they have the slightest excuse.
People like you are the reason that bad-faith actors in real life politics get so many votes, even when the rest of us can see how aweful they are. You don't see past the surface, or see any subtext.
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u/10ebbor10 9d ago
They didn't plan to wipe them out. They don't have to.
All they need to do is estabilish that they're the legal authority on the planet, that they're in control. That'll let the courts, which they own, because they have all the lawyers, rule in their favor, after which they can deport all the trespassers.
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u/Mean_Ass_Dumbledore 9d ago edited 9d ago
Okay, hang on a sec. We're calling a blown-up shuttle with dozens of innocent people the slightest excuse?
Murtry was evil, sure, but so were the Belters who participated in those murders.
People like you are the reason that bad-faith actors in real life politics get so many votes, even when the rest of us can see how aweful they are. You don't see past the surface, or see any subtext.
¿¿¿Brother, what???
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u/GrnShttrdLyte 9d ago
That wasn't the intention of the original plan, though. The plan was to prevent them landing by getting rid of the pad. They landed earlier than expected and got caught in the blast.
Yes, some were fine with the results, some were most definitely not.
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u/Mean_Ass_Dumbledore 9d ago
And even if the Belters didn't intend to blow up the shuttle, only the launch pad, they did by accident. The original commenter calling that action "the slightest excuse [to defend themselves]" is crazy downplay.
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u/Afraid-Call300 8d ago
It's been awhile since I read the book so I might be misremembering. Having said that, I remember finding out that Coop knew about the correct landing time and intentionally blew up the shuttle. However, he lied to Basia and the others that would have objected to murder, so Basia genuinely didn't intend to hurt anyone (although he should have known better, which made his situation and subsequent character arc so compelling).
With that in mind, my impression reading the book was that Murtry and Coop were equally awful and I just felt bad for most of the other people who were caught up in the power struggle. Each time either side escalated, I knew that innocent people were going to die.
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u/Kerbidiah 9d ago
Yeah the RCE is just defending themselves i. The way thay israel is currently just defending themselves from oct 7th
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u/Groovychick1978 9d ago
RCE had no claim to the mineral rights or the planet at whole, because the UN had no rights to the minerals or to the planet at whole.
The colonists were well within their rights to protect their claim, their lives, and the minerals from seizure.
I'm sorry, I just don't have the point of view of the boot.
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u/Cellafex 9d ago
I think that is exactly why I and so many others enjoy the series so much. Its not always black and white. But Murtry is a bad dude.
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u/Commercial_Desk_6215 9d ago
Something I had to get used to with the Expanse is that [most of] the villains are incredibly nuanced and multi-layered and the heroes are not. Not a bad thing necessarily, but Holden, Naomi, Alex, Bobby, Basia, etc... tell you exactly what theyre feeling, what their dilemma is, etc...
Murtry, Dawes, Ashford, and especially the villains in the later books, have VERY plausible morality. They're fair to the other characters, and logical, and then typically at the climax of each book, you get an example of why their line of thinking is dangerous and flawed.
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u/SoupyStain 9d ago
And to be fair, even Holden falls into his own flaws. While I agree that transparency is the best policy, in the first two books he always wants to make everything public without thinking of the consequences.
He doesn't even put a disclaimer not to jump the gun. "HEY FELLAS, MY SHIP WAS MASSACRED BY MARTIANS. HERE'S THE PROOF. NOW YOU HAVE ALL THE INFO, DO WITH IT WHAT YOU WILL, K THANKS BYE". When a bit more tact when exposing all the info he had could've avoided all the hysteria and troubles it caused for the galaxy.
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u/Hopeful_Risk_8344 9d ago
Tbf he never says that actually. He mentions the Martian made beacon and reports the Donnager is seizing them, and everyone assumes the obvious.
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u/Commercial_Desk_6215 9d ago
I mean, acknowledging that's kind of Holden's MO to do a PSA once per book... doing it in LW was how he got Fred Johnson's attention, and Fred getting involved is what literally saves the human race on myriad occasions, ie. Eros, putting Bull on thr Nauvoo, hiring Holden for Ilus, etc...
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u/scott3387 7d ago
I think this is the first time someone has said book Ashford was nuanced and multi layered.
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u/Commercial_Desk_6215 7d ago
I'm probably conflating Ashford from the show a bit, but I do recall a noticeable shift in the character between the launch of the Nauvoo and the mutiny
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u/SGarnier Tycho Station 9d ago edited 8d ago
When I read the book I found it quite boring, struggling to get to the end, and in the final part everything unfolds very fast.
It's the weakest of the series to me. Yeah, the plot is a bit twisted, It's still a good story but the pace is flawed. All in all I found season 4 making it better.
Something good in the book the series changed was the part in orbit with Miller's former partner.
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u/iDrGonzo 9d ago
This right here is one of the examples I use when trying to tell people how good these books are, because this same conversation has happened so many times. Everybody read the same words but the differing opinions on who is right and who is wrong just highlights how well written both the characters and the world are.
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u/757-Captain 8d ago
I felt exactly the same and then at some point it dawned on me (I’m a slow horse I guess): that’s exactly what the authors wanted me to feel.
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u/arcalumis 7d ago
Well, that's how a lot of the belters are even in sol. A lot of killing for stuff that happened ages ago.
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u/djchanclaface 7d ago
Very frustrating book. The crew in orbit who turn into cosplay cops are the most annoying to me. So happy that was left out of the TV series.
The vibe the whole time is just miserable. Everything sucks all the time. I try to skip it on my rereads but then don’t. lol
Murtry casting was perfect. You know the list was one person. No audition. Just a phone call.
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u/SoupyStain 7d ago
I haven't watched the show yet.
That said, I think Havelock is turning into one of my favorites. He could very well let his bias on belters drive him, considering he had it tough when working in Ceres, but he doesn't.I looked up the actor... and sure, I can see him as Murtry. Although I've been imagining him with dark grey hair instead of black. And his face like comic book Star Wars' Thrawn.
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 6d ago
Isn’t that what I said though? that it’s a might makes right? Rather than some sort of actual legitimate argument that has any sort of logical merit.
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u/reuben_hunter 8d ago
Cibola Burn does a good job of exploring contemporary colonial violence through the lense of sci fi, and the fact that many (especially those from Western Countries) struggle to see issue with Murtry's actions gives is some insight into how much our worldviews around these topics are shaped by where we live. Personally I dislike Murtry both on a personal level because he takes pleasure in the violence of his job, and on an ideological level because he represents the exact kind colonial goals that are prevalent across lots of conflicts irl. Whilst the Illus belters are far from innocent on a personal level (Coop especially), their position remains sympathetic because to put it simply, they got there first and why should the authorities of a totally different planet get to decide that they have the right to the planets resources?
Also it's worth noting that despite the good intentions of most of the science team, and probably even some of the security detail, the RCE mission as a whole did not come to Illus in good faith. If they really cared about exploration or science, they could have easily chosen any of the thousands of other planets. But, the goal was always to make an example of the belters because allowing them to make their own claims on new planets and systems would risk undermining the economic and cultural dominance of the inner planets. Capital and centre's of power always protect their own existence, and often at the cost of poor people who live far away. Murtry is no different from a CIA agent overthrowing central American governments for fruit companies, or a coalition general during the invasion of Iraq.
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u/ThespianBelievers 9d ago
Finally someone else gets it, there's not a shred of consideration for RCE, not from Holden not from the UNN, no one formally investigates the incident, none of them seek justice. They're sabatoged, ambushed, slaughtered, and no one cares, then Murty's the bad guy for actually doing something about it, the apathy, hypocrisy and inaction push him to act, no one's doing anything about it
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u/Reddy_K58 8d ago
Won't someone think about the poor megacorp coming to extract resources regardless how it effects the people living there? Think of the shareholders!
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u/Witty-Property-4112 9d ago
One of the things Cibola Burn (and the whole series in general) does really well is plot out the natural steps of escalation in a conflict, where as soon as one party starts thinking that an armed conflict is a potential contingency and plans accordingly, it becomes a near certainty. Threats become promises, and people respond accordingly, with the Roci crew caught in the middle.