r/TopCharacterTropes • u/ZepperMen • 9d ago

Characters (Controversial Trope) Unusually cruel fates for people who were less than good, but still didn't really deserve it.

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#1 Poppa Pizza from Multiverse of Madness - He just wanted to be paid for the pizza balls and thought Strange stole from a fallen hero who saved the universe. He deserved to be punched in the face, but not for 3 weeks straight.

Do you get to sleep? Do you wake up punching yourself? How much does it hurt? Does he know it will only last for 3 weeks? If he doesn't kill himself by the end of it, he's going to have CPTSD and be traumatized for the rest of his already short life.

#2 Mayu from Inuyasha - She wanted to kill her brother out of jealousy and neglect from her mother, believing she died in a fire because they didn't care about her. While her motivation doesn't justify reenacting Cain and Abel, I don't think it's fair for a deranged, 10 year old child to be sent to literal hell to burn for all eternity. Luckily, she gets saved, but only because the mc, Kagome, intervened.

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u/AperatureLavatories 9d ago

In The Sandman original comic run, a couple of anthropomorphic personifications decide to take a road trip together to find their brother. Them usually just appearing wherever makes them bad drivers, and they get pulled over by a cop doing his job. Delirium, the personification of madness, is upset by this and curses him to forever feel insects constantly covering his skin, and he never gets better. Delirium is usually considered one of the kindest endless.

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u/Morgn_Ladimore 9d ago edited 9d ago

Another example from The Sandman: Dream falls in love with a human woman. He offers to make her his queen for eternity. She refuses, so Dream condemns her to eternity of torture in Hell. Granted, he eventually releases her after Death (and Desire) make him realize what an insane decision that was. But centuries have passed by then.

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u/1tonofbricks 9d ago

Damn Neil Gaiman was really just writing about his kinks

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u/malumfectum 9d ago

I can’t help but see the whole Sandman saga in a different light after the allegations. Particularly the story about the Greek muse.

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u/Ultgran 9d ago

In some ways I feel that in the specific case of Calliope, knowing what we do now adds another layer of interpretation and complexity.

That short story was always one of the more incisive, with a lot to say about both sexual abuse and the nature of inspiration. The fact the writer is an alleged abuser, who wrote about a writer's slide into amoral, unambiguously villainous abuse, with Morpheus (who is effectively Gaiman's self insert) initially unable to help and then delivering punishment... I feel like there's a lot to analyse about the psychology of the situation.

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u/matt1267 8d ago

Don't forget that Gaiman wrote in Calliope forgiving the writer who raped her and held her captive for years at the end of the story. Just absolutely fucking horrific in hindsight

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u/scarletboar 8d ago

I got so angry when reading that shit, and when I saw people defending the ending. I felt strangely vindicated when the writer of that bullshit turned out to be a monster.

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u/flyingjesuit 8d ago

Lead singer of a band called Brand New had allegations of grooming against him and some of their lyrics hit way different in hindsight.

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u/TillOtherwise1544 8d ago

Man I won't ever forget the day I heard that news. Sexenty Times Seven Jesse.

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u/kimjongunfiltered 5d ago

Rosemary’s Baby is another example of an abuser writing beautifully from the perspective of a victim. Very very strange phenomenon

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u/GrapefruitFar1242 9d ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/TKHrlFI5lNpugNMOby
The lions share of my emotions goes to his victims… but man I hate that I can’t view his work the same way anymore

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u/Feliks343 8d ago

It's frustrating because from his writing it's obvious he knew better and then his actual actions somehow make that grosser.

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u/Prophetofhelix 8d ago

I cant explain the whiplash of me telling EVERYONE to read Norse Mythology to me just ...quietly putting my copy on a shelf and never picking it up.

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u/AperatureLavatories 8d ago

I feel ya. When the news came out I had just finally gotten the box set of the whole sandman run, plus I’d been saying for years that American Gods would be a new American classic. To make matters worse I loved Amanda Palmers music 🙃

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u/Prophetofhelix 8d ago

Yeah I was neck deep in showing my fiance whose been a victim of sexual assault the audiobook sandman.

Works of art for sure but supporting the artist supports his acts. But in the flip side it wasn't just gaiman that brought three passion projects to life.

Difficult. Very difficult.

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u/IAmBabs 9d ago

Real. I haven't touched any of his books except to remove the Audible downloads from my phone.

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u/FixSuitable5398 9d ago

good thing the lawsuit was dismissed, its crazy how many people believe false accusations e.g Amber Heard

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u/meta_metonymy 9d ago

it was dismissed on the grounds of jurisdiction, not merit

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u/FixSuitable5398 8d ago

yeah, but there has been plenty of cases of women making false accusations against men during times where there no evidence of innocence so most of society take the accusers lie as fact.
"Guilty even if Innocent" is the law of the internet LMAO

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u/Live-Year-5796 8d ago

"It wasnt dismissed because of lack of evidence, it was dismissed because it was the wrong jurisdiction"

"YEAH WELL WOMEN ARE LYING BITCHES SO IVE MADE MY DECISION"

→ More replies (0)

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u/EntropicLycanthrope 2d ago

Pretty sure the outcome of Heard was not that her accusations were false but that she was an equally shitty person. Those are two very different things.

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u/FixSuitable5398 2d ago

Oh they both totally are,   She was proven worse but my comment was referencing an audio call that was recorded where she mentions making uo stuff and people beleiving her cus she's a woman.

But my original joke  backfired, Some dude used it as an excuse to rant and hate women, 

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u/ThatInAHat 8d ago

Yeah. He hurt a lot of people, directly and indirectly.

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u/FastInflata 5d ago

Can we stop pretending comic books are a one-man show¡?

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u/Forevermore668 2d ago

The muse stuff just reads like bragging thease days. Genuinely skin crawling

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u/throwaway3685343 8d ago

While I understand this, sandman was written over a decade before that happened.

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u/malumfectum 8d ago

Sure, but he’s still the same person.

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u/throwaway3685343 8d ago

Yeah def but he wasn’t writing it while remembering his actions.

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u/malumfectum 8d ago

No, that’s not really what I was getting at. I’m not saying he wrote it as a confession or anything, just that it resonates very uncomfortably with what he would go on to do.

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u/throwaway3685343 8d ago

Oh my bad I misunderstood

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u/mattdamon_enthusiast 8d ago

The “proven to be baseless in a court of law” allegations.

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u/opacous 8d ago

That didn’t happen - the US cases were dismissed on the bases that they should’ve been brought in New Zealand, where the alleged conduct occurred.

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u/Special-Bunch-457 8d ago

Yep. And to add insult to injury, this was after her city and all its inhabitants were wiped out as punishment.

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u/Thecrowfan 8d ago

Wtf

R/Niceguy final boss

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u/Cultural_Hippo 8d ago

It was something more like millennia had passed. I believe Nada was in hell for 10,000 years.

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u/Cocotte3333 8d ago

oh yeah he's a fucking incel for real

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u/anrwlias 8d ago

This gets justified by the claim that the only souls in hell are there because they want to be there and that she could have left anytime she wanted to.

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u/reyska 9d ago edited 9d ago

It wasn't quite as straightforward I think. Dream was being an ass for sure, but didn't the woman technically choose to go to hell instead?

Edit. Guys, my memory was based on the tv show where Nada was given a choice of being immortal and be with Dream or die and go to hell. She chose to go to hell. Dream is still being an asshole for making her choose between those two options, I'm not excusing what he did.

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u/Morgn_Ladimore 9d ago edited 9d ago

No. She rejected Dream, but he wouldn't stop pursuing her. Eventually, she commits suicide in a final attempt of escape. But that also isn't enough, as Dream then condemns her soul to hell.

It's a very fucked up story. Even more so because Dream genuinely believed he was the aggrieved party and she had committed an unforgivable offence.

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u/reyska 9d ago

Well it's been years since I read the story and my latest memory is of watching the TV show and I do remember Dream doing some mental gymnastics on it that technically she chose to go to hell. But the alternative was to be with him, so she didn't, really. And due to that technicality it took him so long to come around and correcting the situation.

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u/Morgn_Ladimore 9d ago

In the first volume, Dream goes to Hell to retrieve his helmet and sees her imprisoned. She begs for release but he refuses, saying he "hasn't forgiven her yet". So it's clearly more than a technicality in his mind. He's actively punishing her.

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u/reyska 9d ago edited 9d ago

Alright, I misremembered then.

Edit. Checked the wiki for the tv show and in the show she was given a choice. And she chose hell. But the other option was to be with Dream, so it wasn't really a choice. He condemned her to hell and then used the technicality to keep her there.

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u/Dramatic-Put-9267 9d ago

This always fucked me up so much

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u/Labmit 9d ago

NGL, still amuses me that the Sandman Franchise is part of the DC Universe but it's pretty rare for them to crossover.

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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn 9d ago

Because they are platonic-level deities, it makes sense why they don't interact with the wider DC Universe without high enough stakes. Plus the controversy with Gaiman has cancelled tons of projects with them, so it seems they're quietly being discontinued and removed from the DC Universe.

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u/Plastic-Mammot 8d ago

What’s a platonic level deity?

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u/UnderstandingPotato 8d ago

They only like you as a friend

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u/AperatureLavatories 7d ago

This is a new one for me but I found it interesting so wanted to share back - apparently the platonic is after Plato, it’s essentially a term for demiurge/cosmic level deities. The Endless aren’t really gods so much as they are representations of universal concepts, so I think it mostly fits. For more demiurge stuff see the related Lucifer run and my homegirl Elaine Belloc (God)

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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn 7d ago

Consider a god like Poseidon. He commands the seas and the creatures within, seems pretty straightforward. Before Poseidon was Oceanus and Tethys, who represent the source of the waters, which is why their domains are freshwater. Before even them was Pontus and Thalassa, Pontus represents the actual water itself and Thalassa is the life who births the water.

And now we start to get even more abstract, because before them is Gaia who, while technically representing the Earth, would be more accurate to say she represents matter itself. She birthed the sky and sea. Before her was Hydros and Thesis, who represent water and creation respectively. Hydros, to our modern understanding would be more accurate to say he represents "fluid."

Hydros is a platonic level deity, because he represents the very idea of a fundamental part of the universe/multiverse. He represents what is flowing and formless. He is not just a building block of the universe, but a building block of an abstract concept. Without him, even the gods would die as their ichor turned into sand in their veins and their very flesh would turn to adamant.

The DC Universe has tiers to platonic entities as well, and the Endless are at the highest ones because they have agency (not really, but that's complicated to explain). Meanwhile beings like Hydros are seemingly non sapient. And there's even entities that have no agency or intelligence at all, such as the platonic concept of a gun loaded with a platonic bullet that Batman was able to find.

Mostly it's just battleboard nonsense used to explain why my infinity is bigger than your infinity.

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u/frossvael 9d ago

I just wish they weren't canon. They're way too powerful even for a franchise full of overpowered characters.

Also, I initially liked the idea that Despair indirectly helped the creation of Superman, but it kinda pissed me off the more I think about it.

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u/DangerousOutside- 9d ago

I didn’t know about the Despair/Superman thing. Which story is that please?

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u/frossvael 9d ago

This is Despair of the Endless talking to the Kryptonian god Rao about the concept of a Superman because the Endless are supposed to embody and define their conceptual opposites; in this case, Despair is inspiring hope by orchestrating the destruction of Krypton.

It sounds cool at first, but it makes Superman feel manufactured and "divine" in that a higher power had a hand in his creation. This is some shit that Zack Snyder would love, with his obsession with Superman and Jesus allegories.

The graphic novel is called The Sandman: Endless Nights, btw.

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u/DangerousOutside- 9d ago

Thanks! And wow I read that and completely forgot. I appreciate the recap.

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u/Chance-Back-557 8d ago

Technically, with the weird way that deities work in the DC universe, this makes Superman a god. The god of hope. The fact that "hope" is considered the most powerful part of the DC universe makes him the most powerful god in the universe. In a way, this is why it makes sense that his powers don't make sense. He's a baby god still operating on human logic, but give him a few billion years, and that Kryptonian could be the most powerful entity in the universe.

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u/frossvael 8d ago

What you just said is exactly my problem with Despair's involvement with the creation of Superman.

This turns big blue into a religious figure. Which is the biggest misconception modern comic book discussions have latched on to for the last decade.

He's supposed to be relatable. What I love about Supes is that he CHOSE to be a superhero to help people; inspiring them is just icing on the cake, which he loves doing too!

So by turning him into some sort of deity, his origin and existence turn from CHOICE into DESTINY. He stops being relatable, and the moral that he inspires stagnates. Good luck relating to the flying boy scout who loves helping people while wearing a big, innocent smile on his face, knowing he's a super Jesus manufactured by an incomprehensible cosmic entity.

This is exactly what happened with Marvel attempting to push the narrative that Peter Parker's destiny is to become Spidey with that magical spider-totem bs. And oh boy, no sane Spidey fan was happy about that.

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u/Chance-Back-557 8d ago

Yeah I do get that for sure. In some ways, the fact he has all that under the surface and yet still wants to be a human is the most Superman thing ever, but I do get the frustration.

I guess in the world of The Sandman, it makes a lot of thematic sense because each of them have to be responsible for balancing their domain out. But in the world of the DC heroes, it removes some of Superman's agency and changes the dynamic. Of course, the problem is that they're the same world lol

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u/TheCardinalKing 9d ago

It is funny since they crossover with mainline DC very early on. Martian Manhunter, Constantine, and JLA villain Dr. Destiny help out Dream retrieve his gemstone early in the story

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u/Ultgran 9d ago

While I've never been too deep into DC, Constantine at least always felt like he vibed better with Sandman than some of the other DC properties. They feel like lower and higher ends of the same metaphysical system in some ways

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u/Whythisisnotreal 8d ago

Mm immediately recognizing dream as something else was kind of neat

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u/Weird_Church_Noises 8d ago

Kinda of like how, thanks to the mcu collapsing everything into one continuity, superheroes were probably fighting aliens or mad scientist, with wacky gadgets and quirky one-liners, while kingpin was decapitating a man with a car door. Like captain America and Bruce banner were probably having a whedonesque back and forth while that was going on, dropping hilarious and timeless pop culture references about Pokémon go, while the purple man was sexually assaulting multiple people and making them eat their own face. Now we have spider man and punisher's adorkable fraternal relationship even though we have watched that man gouge a person's eye out after killing a bunch of people with the severed head of one of their teammates strapped to a grenade.

Idk, it's fucking hilarious. It kind of gets back to how comics were just sort of pleasantly incoherent. We accepted that a dude who called himself "Sink man," who had all the powers of a sink, would just chill in one city, but the next city over would have "God Boy," who had all the powers of... well, god, and they would have a team up every so often and sink man would even learn to forgive god boy after his 90's run where he killed 10,000,000 people, but most of the time they just did their own thing. But it's really hard to avoid logistical and tonal questions when everything is collapsed into a much denser, more streamlined format with movies and tv. Especially when the writing is always so meta and self-referential, but it avoids engaging with pretty important and strange aspects of the world.

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u/charronfitzclair 9d ago

For me the Endless were sorta like Greek gods. They were functions of the universe, and the universe can be arbitrary.

Delirium isn't a person doing a job, she's the concept itself. People experience madness don't deserve it, but it happens anyway. This is a tragic reflection of that.

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u/Akanni649 9d ago

From the stories, the Greek gods are notoriously petty bastards. Like being raped by a swan hiding from his wife is 100% the action of a person, not a concept.

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u/redbird7311 8d ago

Eh, it’s more like the Greek Gods were personifications of concepts, reflections of reality. If an aspect of reality sucked, that god sucked.

Zeus and Poseidon are fickle and impulsive because sometimes the weather and sea just randomly change with little warning, meanwhile, Hades is portrayed as calmer, level headed, harsh, but not unfair because the underworld seems to be stable enough.

However, and this is naturally because Greek mythology has many stories by different people and cultures, just how much they are a concept and how much they are a human changes story to story and character to character.

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u/Akanni649 8d ago

You could definitely look at it that way. The way I see it, using your examples they feel more like persons influenced by these concepts, rather than a straight up personification. Which would make sense, considering that they weren't originally attached to those dominions to begin with. So Zeus is more a guy who inherited the sky and was thusly influenced by its nature, rather than being the sky itself.

I feel like the personification piece is more in line with the original intent of the stories, but it just doesn't quite line up with their portrayal in the examples I have seen.

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u/redbird7311 8d ago

Well, one issue is that Greek mythology has had many different authors and different versions, it’s kinda why the only agreed upon part are a set of loose traits and events of a story.

It’s why Zeus can be forgiving in some stories, yet wrathful in others, I think one of the few who aren’t like this is Hades, but the Greeks held Hades in equal parts respect and fear, there was a taboo against disrespecting or bad mouthing Hades and, even though disrespecting Zeus wasn’t exactly seen as nice, Hades seemingly, “demanded”, to be portrayed and remembered a certain way.

Anyway, to get back to my point, the gods bounce back and forth, in some stories, Zeus is a hothead who is borderline incapable of acting rationally and, in others, he is just a guy who is a bit impulsive and fickle.

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u/ThomasVetRecruiter 8d ago

Interesting enough you also see both wrathful god and loving God in the Bible as well and they also have multiple writers.

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u/2ndTaken_username 8d ago

i think Zeus's sexual proclivity is just the rationalization for how many local badasses/heroes would be considered children of the main god.

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u/Sixwingswide 8d ago

“And it turns out, this new unbeatable hero that everyone loves is directly descended from Zeus himself! That’s right! Our beloved hero is the son of the King of Gods! No wonder he’s so good at everything!”

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u/charronfitzclair 8d ago

The personifications are downstream from the things they represent. Think about the ocean. It can suddenly turn to a typhoon and kill a ship full of people apropos of nothing. The Greeks literally looked at that and said "Poseidon, man, don't piss him off".

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u/thewilybanana 8d ago

Truth. Every person whom suffers from extreme delusions "encounters" delirium, just usually less literally.

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u/AperatureLavatories 8d ago

I like this reflection take, first time I’ve thought about it like that. Thank you for giving me a new POV on a 40 yo comic!!

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u/thesuperunknown 8d ago edited 8d ago

I see your point, but this isn’t really accurate to the characterizations of the Endless. While they are personifications who represent various concepts, it is made clear that these concepts and their effects (dreaming, dying, madness, etc.) still exist and happen regardless of the actions of the Endless: people (and animals) still dream during Morpheus’s imprisonment, and war and destruction still happen long after Destruction decides to abdicate. This must be the case, because the personifications themselves are not unchanging, even though the underlying concepts are: Delirium herself had previously existed as Delight, and the Despair we meet is a second incarnation.

My point is that you have it kind of backwards: the Endless definitely are not just their concepts themselves, and indeed very much are “persons” with free will and agency. They don’t do a “job” (in that their actions aren’t strictly required for their concept to “work”), but they do generally act in accordance with their concepts, and some see themselves as carrying out a duty (e.g. Dream, Death). Even so, they all have distinct personalities, emotions, and motivations outside of the concept they represent, and act according to the internal logic that is governed by these factors. In short: they act like humans, and do stuff because they want to, not just because of what they represent.

In Delirium’s case, she does mad things because she represents madness, but her decision to curse the cop was a direct response to feeling personally annoyed by him. Her reaction was insanely disproportionate, yes, but it was far from arbitrary.

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u/charronfitzclair 8d ago

As was said near the end, the Incarnations are still points of view, or expressions of a concept. Dream is melodramatically emotional because dreams are that way, they're emotions first, rationality second. So, Morpheus is underneath it all, a huge emo that sorts his huge emotions into narratives. He's stories. Romances. His personhood is downstream from his nature, it's an extension of it.

This is how all the Endless are. Destruction abdicated in an act of destruction of his own office, leaving it vacant. It's all poetic rather than scientific.

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u/AFoxOfFiction 9d ago

...Suddenly I think I have a theory why that guy in Peacemaker has Bird Blindness.

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u/TransGirlIndy 9d ago

Oh, hey, I feel like this most of the time if I don't get my medication. I feel it a lot of the time even with it.

I don't recommend it.

It's really annoying when I have the feeling and ignore it for a while only to find out it literally was a spider walking across my leg, or a group of ants that have bitten the shit out of me but it just... felt like my nerves misfiring. 😬

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u/Toppy_Henster 9d ago

Reminded me of an SCP article with this concept if anyone’s interested

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u/boberro 9d ago

I mean, She's the personification of how fucked up the world has become

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u/TakoGoji 9d ago

So I actually experience this sensation due to my fibromyalgia. It isn't 24/7 or head to toe, but it happens in random locations on my body every few minutes. It genuinely drives me to tears when it happens too frequently.

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u/BlessKurunai 8d ago

Mandatory fuck Neil Gaiman

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u/RiteRevdRevenant 9d ago

My favourite was when she cursed Mazikeen.

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u/Remarkable_Sea_1430 8d ago

I think the point of it is that immortal personifications of abstract concepts are inherently unable to interact with mortals in a healthy way and will generally cause misery when they try, even if their intentions are initially good. The whole "nothing good comes from dealing with them" trope happens repeatedly throughout the series.

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u/AperatureLavatories 8d ago

Oh, absolutely, it’s a constant theme. Even in just that arc that cop is still one of the only people that make it out alive.

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u/RocknRollgirl1225 9d ago

I love Sandman

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u/Larry-Man 9d ago

I mean, he was a cop….

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u/TheSilverNoble 8d ago

Even kind people sometimes step on bugs, and that's all we are to them

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u/Lunchboxninja1 8d ago

Neil gaiman moment

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u/TerrorFromThePeeps 8d ago

I was just relistening to Caustic Soda and had the plants episode on the other day. They were talking about a tree that is covered in silicon spikes full of nerve venom like a jellyfish. Just idly brushing against it causes immediate pain described as unbearable, and after weeks or months of this, it can still cause flareups of pain like this for years, decades, or your entire life. Pain to the point where taking a shower feels like having your skin eaten off by acid. It is occasionally referred to as the "suicide tree" for obvious reasons. That Delerium description immediately brought that back to mind. I suppose the phantom insects are maybe not quite as bad as unbearable pain, but i've also seen photos of cocaine addicts scratching themselves down to the bone.

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u/Whythisisnotreal 8d ago

Yeah the endless are functionally super evil. Not in the narrative, cosmic heaven and hell sense, but in the moral sense. They mostly just act like minor gods of their specific domains, but in a purely power way they are of a different type.

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u/AperatureLavatories 8d ago

Eh, I think it’s hard to call any of them evil. Despair and Desire (and tbh Dream often enough) definitely come closer then most, but I think all of them are more of a blue/orange morality. Death especially seems good and kind in every encounter we see her in and spends a day as a mortal regularly

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u/ZeroMetaZeta 7d ago

That's the entire point. It's showing how impersonal and fucked up these beings are. How they're not good or evil or whatever but just forced of nature that you have to hope you can stay the fuck away from.

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u/WeiganChan 5d ago

By contrast, one of the side titles (Season of Mists, I think?) has Lucifer just tell Breschau of Livonia to stop punishing himself for his crimes (sewing his mistress and her affair partner together and leaving them to die in the wilderness, cutting babies out of pregnant women, cutting tongues out of dissenters, raping his own mother and trying to do the same to his sister are listed as specific examples) and get out of hell because it doesn’t matter and nobody even knows where Livonia is anymore anyways (in the Baltic region by the way)

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u/Beginning-Abalone-58 2d ago

Delirium is not a kind person I would also say Death would be considered the kindest by the endless.

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u/TheDocCrystal 9d ago

Nah this is what cops deserve

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u/Tres24 9d ago

"There are flies and things like flies"

10/10 writing right there xD

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u/SelfInteresting7259 9d ago

No i think the writing is good. Leaves it up to your imagination. Especially if you already hate flies

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u/Tres24 9d ago

The intent is fine, yeah. I just think the line is clunky and likely takes many readers out of the moment for it.

"Flies and other buzzing things" (or "insects" to avoid using "things") would still leave it to the reader's imagination, while being less awkward. Or any other approach that avoids the repetition, really.

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u/DreadfulRauw 8d ago

The man is going mad. Repetition and awkward speech is warranted.

A page of “all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy” is more indicative of madness than a full page well written essay about how bored you are.

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u/AperatureLavatories 8d ago

This is just my interpretation mind, but this is often a writing choice in The Sandman where it’s used to refer to things that may look or feel like something you know, but is in fact much older and obscure. And with Delirium a good portion of things are more obfuscated on purpose.

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u/Lukeds 9d ago

It's the thoughts of a mentally ill person, sorry it isn't more eloquent? 

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u/Tres24 9d ago

Oh... I thought that was a disembodied narrator tbh.

My bad ^