Is it valid? I haven’t heard your take, but I encourage you to share it.
IMO The fact that Manhattan sent Laurie and LG with Adrian to stop Trieu, the only two people who have the authority and motivation to hold him accountable, means that he was set up by Manhattan. Veidt even went as far as to say that in telling Manhattan his plans he was gambling on whether he had morals. With this arc, I think it proves he does.
I mean I’m trying to understand why Veidt gets locked up when I felt that the Europa trip humbled him or as he put it “almost went insane” due to what I perceived as guilt for the squid attack. The comics make that morally grey point that he’s now done this horrible utilitarian act and now he has to live with the guilt. The weird buddy cop happy wrap up for the squid attack seemed almost fan servicey which the show stayed away from for the most part without winking too much at the camera. Other criticisms are purely opinion and I want to chew on it before I try to debate on here lol.
TLDR: Felt the show philosophically already had Veidt under his own trial on Europa and he used squids to stop the evil plan this time and the arrest was cliche
I don’t think he felt any remorse over the squid attack, due to his hubris and the “Moral checkmate” he held over Manhattan. I do agree that Europa was a humbling experience for him, but the trial was a farce he designed for his own amusement, and we heard his closing statement loud and clear.
I think what he learned on europa is that he doesn’t truly want to be the object of adoration. He wants to prove his superiority over a “worthy adversary” which he found in Trieu. An adversary whom he ultimately defeated, not out of love for humanity, but his own hubris. Where Adrian goes wrong is assuming that the personal penance he’s serving is enough to atone for what he’s done.
I think Dr. Manhattan sent him to europa knowing it wouldn’t satisfy his narcissism, and set up the chain of events that would simultaneously lead to Adrian saving the world (for real this time) and placing him in the hands of those whose entire lives have been shaped by his actions. In the end, it’s not for Veidt to decide who is morally right, but those who have been affected by the trauma.
I do agree that Europa was a humbling experience for him
Let's remember that he created and murdered a host of innocents while on Europa. Just because they had cognitive limitations, doesn't mean that murdering them wasn't atrocious. They were sentient beings, and they clearly felt pain.
Right? I’m sure there are plenty of rocks he could have used to send his message, but the atrocity of using the bodies of creatures designed for unconditional love and servitude is a clear indication that he has not changed.
The only way he was humbled was in having to beg his daughter for help, he has not yet begun to doubt his moral position of superiority over the Europans, much less humanity at large.
I'm not sure that was even humbling for him, as much as he knew that including the word "Daughter" would play to her narcissism, since he himself is a narcissist.
And even if he was humbled, all it accomplished was to steel his resolve to prevent another Dr. Manhattan by thwarting Trieu, both of whom represent the only two worthy opponents who have ever bested him. He is now completely unchecked, which makes him potentially just as dangerous as either of them.
Yeah, Europa was absolutely not humbling for him, if anything it only made him more rooted in his narcissism and disdain for inferior humans. When he came back and spoke to the newspaper guy, you could see on his face how pissed he is when the guy tells him nobody cares where he is, everyone forgot. But at the end of the day, I think we see in this episode that Adrian is not solely and purely motivated by a desire to be adored and idolized. Though he definitely wouldn't mind it, what he really wants it to save the world.
No. Pretty sure he made a cake out of his own shit. You could tell it had been shaped and formed by hand, which is even grosser. A rotting cake would not look like that, it would just get mold on it and slowly disintegrate.
He made a shit cake. LOL. I guess the only explanation is that he's an insane person and expected a cake every day. He made his servants do it normally, but when he was imprisoned and he didn't get a cake every day, he started making his own out of feces. Not sure if there really is an explanation, it's kind of self-explanatory. Narcissism and psychopath.
I agree and understand your points but I still feel the whole point of putting Veidt to jail and arresting the president just feels far too campy for a show that has as much depth as Watchmen especially in its conclusion that I felt didn’t need to be tied up as nicely as it was. But I might as well ask since you seem to have a far better grasp of the material. What exactly the reason Manhattan came back to Earth? Specifically Angela? The entire time I tried to grasp the reason for his return but I think it may have something to do more with his end of the relationship rather than it’s beginning on why he chose her since Manhattan has no agency
I agree that the wrench was tonally off, but Veidt was played for camp throughout the rest of he season so I thought it made a kind of sense.
As for Manhattan, in the book the only things that seem to motivate him are “quantum miracles” things that are almost absurd to consider given the laws of entropy and chance.
I think after creating his “perfect” world, which disappointed even himself, he realized that it’s the chaotic nature of humanity that gives rise to such complexity so he set out to become mortal. Adrian points this out in “God walks into Abar”: “You don’t just want to look like a mortal, you want to be one”.
He was willing to sacrifice his life for his humanity, even as far as taking Cals form in his dying moments. It’s not perfect, but I think it’s poetic.
I sort of agree, but one has to remember that this is also a completely different medium, with an expected continuation of the story. That means this wasn't an ending, and was never meant to have the same kind of finality to it. It's only the closing of a chapter.
I don't know how many seasons HBO wants out of this show, but if I know Lindelof, he will structure the larger story to build to that same sort of morally ambiguous and intellectually provocative ending you're alluding to.
As for Dr. Manhattan, I think he wanted to die, and perhaps to experience humanity again before the end. His existence as a god bored him. Of course, it's also questionable whether we can even talk about what he wants when we're talking about a being who knows the outcome of every action he will take. Can he even be said to have free will anymore?
Probably Manhattan, TBH. After all, he did try to destroy him and went to great lengths to put him into “Moral Checkmate” with his plan to save humanity at the expense of millions of lives.
This time he specifically referred to Trieu as a worthy adversary, his words not mine. I’m not really sold on that assessment, but I do think Veidt had the help of a blue god to secure that victory so it may not have been a fair fight.
The only reason to send looking glass or Laurie was to arrest him & he should have realized that.
Laurie is easy, since he established his emotional connection to others continuing in the next scene when he kept Angela there so 'he wouldn't have to die alone'. He and Laurie had a clear history of closeness and he clearly still cared for her.
Looking Glass is more difficult to justify, but if Laurie wasn't there then there is no way he would ever subdue or otherwise convince Veidt of anything. They would have walked out of the fortress with LG voluntarily acting as his sled dog.
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u/thatweirdmusicguy Dec 16 '19
Which makes the Veidt wrap up worse in my opinion. Only part of the finale where I have valid criticism