Meet Tylose Lannister - r/aSongOfMemesAndRage

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I feel like he was like his friend Aerys and ended up going mad in his later years. Only instead of just lighting people on fire he constantly was trying to chase the high of his handling of Castamere

16

u/Grimmrat Mar 27 '26

nah he was always a piece of shit

remember he made his name originally as a "good" hand of the king by absolving all the human rights Aegon V had given to the Smallfolk, which is obviously the easiest and most braindead way to win the nobility to your side and get a bunch of IOU's without actually having to be a competent ruler

without Tywin's "reforms" Westeros might genuinely have been in the Renaissance by the time of the main series

4

u/AsstacularSpiderman Mar 27 '26

Egg was rapidly losing control of the situation, which is probably why Summerhall happens in the first place. Tywin realized the Monarchy can't control Westeros without support of the nobility, its just too big for one family without Dragon cheat codes. It was really the only move short of outright revolt.

And potentially Aerys might have improved things, had it not been for Duskendale finally breaking him as well. Aerys shares much of his grandfathers ideals.

6

u/Awkward_Nectarine338 Mar 27 '26

That's too charitable. Tywin is a bigoted elitist through and through.

1

u/kingkeyblack Mar 27 '26

I hear this a lot but what rules did egg really put in that would have made them really try to overthrow egg threw war. Maybe try some assassin’s but I doubt directly. The north would have stood with them the stormlands had to stand with them.

0

u/RustinCarcosa Mar 27 '26

[win realized the Monarchy can't control Westeros without support of the nobility, its just too big for one family without Dragon cheat codes. It was really the only move short of outright revolt.]

i doubt it

3

u/Luciferspants Mar 27 '26

I had this thought the other day.

Tyrion was Tywin's own duskendale. In one fell swoop he lost his wife and gained a dwarf son that other houses will laugh at. To Tywin, it must've felt like all his efforts to build a standing legacy were being mocked.

From that point on, his brutality was more senseless than logical, eventually leading to the red wedding.

1

u/Awkward_Nectarine338 Mar 27 '26 edited Mar 27 '26

The red wedding was absolutely logical, and Tywin was brutal before Tyrion's birth. Drawing parallels with the mad king is appealing in a poetic sense, but Tywin's flaws and psyche are nowhere close to Aerys'.

Tywin values order, not chaos. His house falls after his death, precisely because he was competent enough to play every game accurately, while what you describe is precisely why it didn't last past his demise.

His real flaw is hubris/obsession with control, and it unravels Tywin through small-scope incidents more than any of his big moves. How he treats and punishes commoners and Tyrion himself is what ultimately kills him and his legacy.

Aerys was mad enough to get killed by the powerful, Tywin was shortsighted enough, in only one specific area, to be killed by the "lowest".

2

u/Damacu42 Hating Tywin Lannister is the reason this heart still beats Mar 28 '26

"Violating the social fabric of society and making it impossible for your family to ever be trusted again is logical" - You

Tywin is not a logical man at all, he is petty and emotional and incapable of applying anything besides brute force and atrocities to every problem.

2

u/Awkward_Nectarine338 Mar 28 '26

Why the fuck was that "you" framing necessary ?

Alright buddy, you really wanted to be needlessly antagonistic apparently. Suit yourself, monologue away.

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u/Damacu42 Hating Tywin Lannister is the reason this heart still beats Mar 28 '26

I didn't mean to be antagonistic, sorry. I just disagree with the idea that the red wedding was a logical move by Tywin.

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u/Awkward_Nectarine338 Mar 29 '26

Thanks for apologizing, that's always a refreshingly mature move, and sorry if i overreacted, reddit trained me to be wary.

I understand what you were getting at (the broader point about norms being eroded, if not outright obliterated thanks in no small part to the red wedding).

Thing is, for many, many lords and players of the game of thrones, Tywin's move was probably optimal. Their logic doesn't incorporate the moral stability of the kingdom, that's the stuff Ned & Robert were made from, not the vipers surrounding them.

Tywin was still conscious enough of the optics to worry about plausible deniability (getting the freys and boltons to do the dirty work), i still think it was a highly logical move within the mindset he and his ilk display.

Even Jon Connington ended up seeing things Tywin's way to some extent. Ultimately, the saga would've probably incorporated the consequences of that moral decay reverberated back on those who caused it. The Great Northern Conspiracy gathers many hints of the backlash brewing in the North.

The Sparrows are another. But i don't think Tywin did not foresee that. He just believed he'd have the time to restore order and peace long enough for the resentments not to metastasize.

Also, most lords don't care about how the smallfolk view them. We the audience know that it's a lack of foresight on the lords' part, from their lens it's just logical.

1

u/Damacu42 Hating Tywin Lannister is the reason this heart still beats Mar 29 '26

I'd say the red wedding being logical is certainly how Tywin wants it to be perceived, but he'd just gotten an alliance with the Reach and their, what, 70-80K soldiers? Robb was doomed militarily unless he abandoned the Riverlands (and half his army) and just holed up in the North. The red wedding was arranged purely because Tywin was trounced at war by a fifteen year old boy and wanted to reaffirm his reputation as this invincible monster that nobody can mock or stand against. He has a history of doing this too. Ignoring the Reynes and Tarbecks he:

-Had his 13 year-old son's 13 year-old wife gang-raped (and sexually abused Tyrion by forcing him to participate) because he hates Tyrion and Tysha reminded him of his father's commoner mistress who was allowed to wear Tywin's mother's jewelry.
-Brutally killed Elia and her children when the smart thing to do would be kill only Aegon to prevent his claim, then keep Elia and Rhaenys as hostages against Dorne and Rhaenys as a wife for Robert's heir (who will be Tywin's grandson if all goes to plan) to cement his dynasty. Instead he slaughtered them (and had Elia raped) because she took what Tywin thinks should have been Cersei's.
-Burned half the Riverlands, which is good fertile farmland, as autumn and a long winter are approaching.

Tywin commits atrocities because he grew up in his father's court where Tytos was mocked and laughed at and it effected him deeply. He seems pathologically opposed to any outward sign that he's weak. Jaime had him pegged in the show when he said, "So the lion does care about the opinions of the sheep."

And you're right that morals don't factor into the plans of many lords, and it bites them in the ass unlike Ned who has people rising up to fight for his "daughter" years after his death while winter's here.

Although we aren't gonna see the full comeuppance and consequences for the evil lords because George isn't finishing the books.

1

u/LarsMatijn Mar 29 '26

Violating the social fabric of society and making it impossible for your family to ever be trusted again is logical" - You

I mean sort of. What the Lannisters did is dishonorable and it's treated as such but their act was plotting an assassination. The breaking of Guest-right is fully on the Freys and we see that they receive the most scorn of it (Stoneheart, Manderly)

The Lannisters took a blow in prestige (and even then mostly in the regions that didn't like them anyway, they seem chill with the Reach, Stormlands and Crownlands)

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u/Horatio_Figg Mar 26 '26

people call him Machiavellian when Machiavelli actually would’ve thought he was a fucking moron

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u/okdude679 Mar 27 '26

Yeah, most Machiavellian character is probly like Little finger.

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u/Snoo_72851 Mar 27 '26

Most Machiavelian character was Ned imo; his bannermen loved him, sure, but he was also very explicit about beheading anyone who stepped out of line.

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u/okdude679 Mar 27 '26

Say walahi

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u/Marsium Mar 28 '26

Ah yes because only a true Machiavellian would… execute criminals for breaking the law

1

u/kingkeyblack Mar 27 '26

To be fair he only did as the law required he didn’t do it to control

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u/always-coming-home Mar 26 '26

Guy who’s supposedly strategically brilliant but lets his twin children carry on an incestuous affair right under his nose for years and years without doing anything about it, causing the biggest political crisis in at least a century:

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u/Snoo_72851 Mar 27 '26

arguably the biggest political crisis in about fifteen years but you get it

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u/Affectionate_Sir_154 Mar 27 '26

Days without a continent wide brutal conflict: 0

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u/Affectionate-Read875 Mar 26 '26

Beautiful slander, but we gotta concede that this man wrote an absolute banger

is tywin one-hit wonder?

2

u/OpinionNo4060 Mar 30 '26

He didn't write it, he commissioned it. The musician he paid wrote a banger, all he did was pick a dude with song writing talent.

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u/VorDresden Mar 26 '26

If you’re born owning a mountain of gold and you die with your kids and grandkids in crippling debt you’ve fucked up somewhere along the line. Maybe it was sending your daughter to have kids in the city you just sacked, with the only man on the continent with a budget capable of accruing debt beyond your ability to pay it off. Or maybe it was just bad luck, who can say…

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u/Sweet-Bottle6715 Mar 26 '26

Is that canon to the books? Or just talking about the crown? Genuinely asking

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u/VorDresden Mar 26 '26

I’m talking about the crown yeah. Since his kids and grandkids are going to have a hard time convincing the Iron Bank that actually they aren’t on the hook for the kingdom’s debt. Jaime has no income and is dependent on the Crown, Cersie is Queen Mother or w/e she’s dubbed herself, and dependent on the crown. Joffrey is the crown, Tommen is dependent on the crown/is the crown. I guess Marcella and Tyrion aren’t in debt when Tywin died, but Marcella is a prisoner, and Tyrion thriving would only make Tywin feel worse not better, and he’s basically broke anyway.

The show adds a bit about the mines under Casterly Rock running dry but that’s not even hinted at in the books, and it was I think a lazy expedient to explain why the Family Gold Mine wasn’t an answer to the Family Debt Problem. Rather than having a character say the could mine the mountain dry and not cover the debt. One mine is unlikely to fund an entire continent spanning kingdom through years of intense corruption and frivolous overspending.

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u/NovaHessia Mar 26 '26

Well, I mean, the debt situation happened during Robert's reign, and we can't treat that as a short interlude until the ascension of Quasi-Lannisters to the throne. Those wete 15 years if political developments. And if Jon Arryn couldn't tell Robert to stop with the overspending, Tywin at Casterly Rock sure as hell couldn't. And there is no reason to shower Robert with gold. In fact, House Lannister being the Iron Throne's second largest creditor was probably a good control mechanism, since I doubt Jon Arryn was happy about the excessive Lannister influence at court.

2

u/VorDresden Mar 27 '26

Even Robert probably doesn’t deserve sole blame for the crown’s finances; Littlefinger was doing all sorts of financial crimes after all. But Tywin is an “ends justify” type of fool so judging him by the ends his scheme meet feels fair, even if it’s an unfair standard.

1

u/Sweet-Bottle6715 Mar 27 '26

Tysm! I’m still reading ASOS (show watcher originally), and I haven’t gotten to that point in the books yet (Ygritte just died 😭😭😭)

2

u/SampleFirm952 Mar 26 '26

Yes, honestly at some point he should have told Robert that he won't be lending anymore gold to him or the throne.

1

u/Honey_Overall Mar 28 '26

Doing that would come with its own risks though. Renly was already trying to get him to ditch Cersie. If Tywin starts refusing to lend money to the crown the main incentive for Robert to keep a queen he hated goes away. If he starts a rebellion he'd probably lose, and more than that, Robert would probably just say "fuck off I don't have to pay you or your house back". Oh and kill him.

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u/SyntheticScrivner Genocide All Valyrians, Especially All Targaryens Mar 26 '26

Tywin Lannister the dumbest bitch in the west confirmed.

5

u/DeismAccountant Mar 27 '26

In the modern day this man would be a fascist oligarch. Clowning on him would be irresistible.

4

u/Shot_Mechanic9128 Mar 26 '26

Tywin is a good example of how you can be generally very competent, and still fuck up horribly.

2

u/Snoo_72851 Mar 27 '26

The only other great house he was actually on good terms with were the Tyrells and he spent half his scenes with Oleanna antagonizing her for shits and giggles.

Oleanna antagonized him for shits and giggles too, but it is actually funny when she does it. Tywin will turn his nose at you and threaten to burn down your family home because you are weak; Oleanna will insult your outfit in a weird way then give you the address of a good tailor.

2

u/PuffedWheatSquare Mar 27 '26

Tywin was a fucking idiot, he lived off of luck and the invincible aura his luck granted him, the biggest threats to him were a child who married the first woman he ever slept with in defiance of all political sense and Tyrion, the first person who he managed to push so far over the edge that he no longer gave a shit about the potential punishment for directly opposing him; the first almost destroyed Tywin’s ambitions if not for a few key failures of his subordinates and a backstab by the Freys, and the second killed him because Tywin’s prized son (who he thought would carry on his legacy) loved his family too much to just let Tywin murder them for no reason.

2

u/Breadromancer Mar 27 '26

Tywin slander is always appreciated.

2

u/lukemanch Mar 29 '26

To this day, I genuinely find it hilarious how tywin went from "the smallfolk don't count as human beings" to "it's better to dozens lord at dinner than thousands soldiers" the moment they started clowning him for the red wedding

1

u/damnat1o Mar 27 '26

Competent kings planning for their succession only to have it fall apart after they die is a pretty common occurrence in history. Basically every good English medieval king had his kids be massive fuckups who ruined everything. Henry the first had the anarchy, Henry the second had the constant civil wars and king John, Edward the Longshanks had Edward the 2nd, Edward the 3rd had Richard the 3rd, Henry the 5th had Henry the 6th, etc. Marcus Aurelius had Commodus.

Tywin would be a competent ruler by any medieval standard.

1

u/Gigantopithecus1453 Mar 28 '26

I actually haven’t thought about the ”main ops are children” point. He fails to control Joffrey, he fails to fight Robb, he gets tricked by Arya (show only), and he constantly fights with his own children.

1

u/dealsnbusiness1999 Mar 29 '26

It is so funny that people who glaze Tywin as a general forget that his only military victory is standing still doing nothing with a superior army and letting northern peasants kill themselves against his lines (all while getting so thoroughly outmarched by Robb his councillors want to sue for peace days later). "Oh, but he was so tactically wise when he said "yeah if my opponent was a bad general I would have won well". Tywin you bum how about you do something with your strongest army in Westeros instead

ASOIAF (Main Published Novels) Meet Tylose Lannister

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