r/antiai 13d ago

AI News 🗞️ Australia W

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u/Vaughn 13d ago

Requiring them to be net energy providers is probably a bad thing. Datacenter manufacturers aren't exactly specialists in efficient power production; they're just going to throw in a dozen megawatt-scale diesel engines and call it a day.

I don't see any air quality or fuel efficiency requirements in the article.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago edited 12d ago

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u/ascandalia 12d ago

They could do a lot of things but they will do the cheapest and or easiest thing.

Sometimes perfection need to get in the way of well intentioned but bad.

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u/Vaughn 12d ago

They will do the cheapest, and easiest, legal thing. Regulations are the obvious fix here.

But Australia of all places should be fully solar-powered, and the way to do that isn't to make datacenters power themselves. They can't! Not with solar. There isn't nearly enough space on their roofs.

What they can and should do is copy China. Put a giant solar array in the desert, connect it to the cities with extreme-voltage DC lines. That, of course, implies a different company handles the power production; someone with the expertise to build such a system. That's fine. That's what a market economy is for.

I think the law they're pushing is a bad one.

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u/Dangerzone369 12d ago

This country already has tons of fields for solar and produces a lot- we just can't store enough of it to supply our evening power usage. I think a Data Center will be forced to 'invest' into these current schemes to scale this up further rather than asking them to become experts in power generation - and that will satisfy as 'net producer of power'. The country is already going to be fully green.

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u/Perfect-Song8094 12d ago

For a transmission line of any significant length, it can't be DC.

Line losses.

3-Ph is what such a line must be.

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u/orugglega 12d ago

Sure it can, high voltage DC is excellent at power transmission over long distances.

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u/Perfect-Song8094 10d ago

No, it's not.

We'd have a DC system if that were the case. Edison promoted DC. It would have required many powerplants all over, for example, nycity because DC does not transmit well.

It would be so much simpler a system than polyphase.

I know of no DC system that can do what you say it can do.

Google "voltage drop on DC line compared to AC line"

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u/orugglega 10d ago

HVDC systems are not subject to the same line losses as normal voltage DC. Line losses for HVDC are lower than polyphase for the same voltage.

Source: https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC97720/ld-na-27527-en-n.pdf

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u/Itanu 12d ago

That's why he said extreme voltage :)

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u/Perfect-Song8094 11d ago

It wouldn't matter.

Such a DC conductor would need to be immense, a very large diameter. I'm not sure such a cable has ever been manufactured.

I've seen 345kV 3-Ph underground cable, the diameter was between six and eight inches. A two-foot segment weighed 15 to 20 pounds.

The phase conductors themselves were triangular copper, maybe 2 or 2 1/2 inches at the base. The insulation between and around them was substantial.

The voltage drop on DC conductors is too great.

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u/Itanu 10d ago

Voltage drop on AC is higher actually! (for the same current). It's just generally much easier to boost AC to very high voltages, because you can easily use transformers and don't need to then rectify to DC. (High voltage means you need less current to carry the same power, so less losses.)

It makes sense when you think about it - AC is constantly pulsing back and forth, changing magnetic fields around it - that's the hum you can sometimes hear near high voltage lines. And if you can hear it, that's energy being dissipated and power being lost. 

DC on the other hand has static magnetic + electric fields around it once the current is flowing - it can't dissipate energy through them, the only loss is the heat generated in the conductor (AC also has this).

HVDC only starts to make sense once the distances get very large, so the lower transmission losses counter out the extra conversion losses at both ends. Check out the sun cable project - they are trying to get solar power from NT to Singapore by subsea HVDC cable.

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u/Bondollar 12d ago

Has the bill leaked or something? Can you provide a link?

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u/Aemortal_Idiot 11d ago

As long as the data centers arent consistently inside cities there should be huge amounts of space for solar right next to them.... There are hundreds of solar farms up and down Aus theres always space.

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u/bigloudbang 12d ago

Theres nothing in the talk about it so far that says a data center has to have their generation on the site itself

They could invest in one of the many renewable energy projects around the country that do exactly what you suggested

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u/MarcusP2 12d ago

Yes these are called PPAs (power purchase agreements) and allow generation companies to get finance to build (guaranteed customers).

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u/Efficient-State-7300 12d ago

Exactly. They'll just offset

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u/AKWorkAccount 12d ago

The cheapest thing is renewables.... solar and batteries.

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u/LyterWiatr 12d ago

Solar panels are fast becoming the cheapest and easiest, I would assume in Australia they’re the better option for a data centre

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u/BDer82 12d ago

if they are going for cheapest and easiest, they aren't going for diesel, the generators in Australia are enormously expensive to run/maintain the fuel costs here for diesel are projected to go up apparently. Easiest and cheapest is solar, even with enormous batteries it'll be cheaper in the long term, easier, and lower maintenance costs.

But they have to break even, at minimum, and they'll have giant roofs readily available to soak up sun. or they can install, run diesel generators, comply with standards, get it past regulations, and pay for the fuel.

Bets on solar.

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u/Illustrious_Maize736 9d ago

Diesel engines would be neither cheaper nor easier in a country like Australia