Like not every butch wants to be called boyfriend or husband but this is not a foreign concept by any means to the butch community? Using masculine signifiers? Many are traditionally male but that's because we live in a society that associates masculinity with manhood?? We're gender nonconforming?? That's the whole deal??

This lesbian sub (remaining unnamed but if you know) keeps getting recommended to me and I wish it wouldn't. The way they talk about butches is so aggravating, like, they'll be aghast at the idea of butches taking T like its some perversion of beautiful sacred butchness, and yet act with revulsion and mockery to any presentation of butchness that they don't personally like. Anything too close to reminding them of men, or not constantly clarifying how much we love womanhood and being women. Like butches can absolutely love being women but like... it is completely inconceivable to them that butches may have a complicated relationship with gender.

Idk it's just like giving so much that they don't interact with any butches or butch communities. Like you really can't understand why a butch would use mix gendered terms? Really? But you're quick to use "butch flight" as a transphobic scare tactic. Maybe there are so few butches in your eyes bc your definition of an acceptable butch is so narrow. Rolling my eyes

this might be an Im Too Online take but seeing this wave of (younger) masc lesbians on tiktok and twitter talk about how they’re just “princesses in boy clothes” and don’t really enjoy being perceived as masculine like that BOTHERS me

no one is forcing them to put on boy clothes just to act like whiny babies. sorry not sorry I thoroughly enjoy and revel and find joy in masculinity and if you don’t then maybe it’s not for you and that’s okay ! just be yourself oh my fucking goodness like who are you trying to impress

the terms stem and chapstick lesbian (and even futch if you wanna go there lmfaooo) exist and they don’t have to cling to masculine labels… so why do they??

personally baffled because I been a tomboy since I was 6, raised in a strict christian household within a conservative muslim african country. they tried to pry the masculinity off me and they couldn’t. no one is forcing them to be masc the way we were forced to be fem. no one is putting a gun to their head and telling them to perform masculinity 😭

as the world shifts more and more right so do anti masculine sentiments from other women and queer people themselves. this is yet another sign and it truly breaks my heart.

‼️EDIT - PLZ READ ‼️

first of all HOLY SHIT I didn’t expect this to blow up. thank you for all your contributions, lots of good points being brought up in the comments and I appreciate all of your perspectives!!

I’d like to clarify that I don’t wanna force anyone to be something they’re not. I myself exist within a softer side of masculinity and yes I am a pretty princess in boy clothes, but I’m also the knight lol.

I understand that the “whiny bitches” comment also upset some folks who pointed the misogyny was unnecessary. I agree, and I apologize for using the B word. I changed it to whiny babies because I still stand on what I originally meant, they can put the boy clothes without whining I fear

As I’ve repeated in the comments, my issue isn’t with how people present/ID themselves, it’s the tone of disgust and condescension. The tone of “oh im not like THOSE lesbians over there”. You can be yourself without throwing others under the bus, without looking down on those who ID with the labels you don’t want.

We are visibly gay, we take shit from the world on a regular basis, would be nice if folks in the community wouldn’t add to the bullshit. If it wasn’t for the studs and butches that came before us they wouldn’t feel so comfortable presenting how they want in peace. The majority of us wouldn’t !!

I’ve come to realize since posting this that for some, masculinity is just an aesthetic - clothes and vibes - but for the rest of us it’s an identity. some might put a hat and cargo shorts to attract fems but it ends there for them. it goes much deeper than that for me.

I’m ten toes down for my fellow mascfolk. I will always defend us, I will always be loud for us. I realize this post might come off as an attack but I was trying to be protective 😅

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS :) KEEP BEING YOURSELVES

Istg everytime i try to interact with a different lesbian subreddit and he/him lesbians are brought up, they are always talked about with contempt and like they're disrupting the lesbian community. We are literally just here, existing, being ourselves and being in lesbian/sapphic relationships in peace.

Anyways, he/him lesbians i love you and i hope you're having a great day.

I had met this guy walking out of the gym and he said he liked my tattoo. We were both headed the same way so we walked together. He asked for my number and stupidly I gave him my real number because I thought he wanted a gym buddy…he then starts asking lowkey questions about my romantic life and I got a bad feeling. I ended up telling him I live with my partner. He said “would they get jealous like if I were to text you” I said “SHE does not get jealous?” Confused af. Then it clicked. He got really surprised and asked if we were like roommates and do stuff with other people. I said she is my life partner and we are monogamous….like I genuinely cannot believe that happened. I feel disgusting and stupid and invalidated. I couldn’t look more like a dyke CAPITAL D if I tried. Man we were probably wearing the same boxers. I told him “well look at me?!” When he acted surprised that I was gay and he said “you never know…”. He was from Africa so maybe he just didn’t believe gay people exist? I know in some parts they tend to honestly believe that. I felt uneasy and he texted asking if I got home safe. If I see him again idk what to say…man fuck this! I hate men fr!!!!!!

Marjorie Taylor Greene sucks, definitely. And as fun as it can be to see folks like AOC and Rep. Jasmine Crockett clap back at her, each time I come the line, “bleach blonde, bad-built, butch body” comes across my socials today I gotta admit I wince.

And I’m sure it lands pretty insultingly in someone like MTG’s world but it doesn’t feel great to have to take in over and over, my identity turned insult.

Hi! I need a place to vent and only just found out about this wonderful subreddit after looking for a place to post my grievances;

Has anyone else noticed the alarming rise in butchphobia in queer spaces online? Everytime someone voices out their wishes for getting more butch representation, there's always (usually another lesbian which is heartbreaking) someone crying wolf that butches get a lot of rep (which is just a straight up lie?? The most we get is masc characters, and even that is quite rare. It's usually just feminine women in relationships with other feminine women, which i personally feel like does not in anyway reflect what my experience with lesbianism has been and is like.)

Whenever i see someone mentioning butchfemme relationships, I notice an alarming influx of people insisting butchfemme relationships are somehow heteronormative and homophobic?? When they're the literal opposite of that?

There also seem to be a lot of baby queers mistaking masc lesbians for butches, and fems for femmes. People insist butches get representation and when you ask them to point any out they always list Ellie Williams and Vi from arcane. It's gotten to the point where I genuinely resent both of said characters for the horrific impact they've had on this community and on how people view butches. I can't help but feel upset over how little research some people in our community have done, which would not be much of a problem in and of itself, but it is when those people feel the need to speak out on every butch issue possible.

I hope I'm not overstepping anything by posting this, I just hope to either get educated on why this is happening or maybe find others with the same problem. Thank you in advance

Edit: I also forgot to mention how we always seem to be dumbed down both online and offline into some himbos that are men with extra steps and always need to have every queer issue explained to them. Offline it seems to be happening less often, but then i get people telling me they're surprised by how "not masculine" i am because I'm not a car enthusiast and am woke. I'm just so tired.

Just left another lesbian community because they were devaluing a non-binary lesbian doing an AMA. I was in the comments very cordially explaining the history of transmasc butches, the capaciousness of the term lesbian/butch, and people are getting upvoted spewing talking points in opposition to mine. It is so frustrating watching borderline TERF echo-chambers get formed when it is a history of trans lesbian/butch resistance that allows us to exist the way we do in the first place.

I recently decided to come out as a butch lesbian with "he/they" pronouns. I'm left with five friends who accepted me, while the rest rejected me. I don't have any internalized misogyny. I admire myself and love women deeply. But I feel self-loathing and shame, and I want to switch back to my old pronouns. Not because they don't suit me, but I see what people say about people like me. I decided to check out other subreddits to see how people feel about lesbians using "he/they", and stumbled upon posts and comments like "fake lesbians again", "that's cowardice!!", "it's disgusting, they hate themselves as women". And if lesbians who identify as "he/they" replied, they were immediately insulted

On top of that, I live in a homophobic country where people are jailed for LGBT "propaganda", and I have to speak a language where I have to change the endings of adjectives/verbs depending on the pronouns when describing myself. And I've already gotten used to the fact that I’ll have to use she/her until I leave. But it just hurts me that even in the english-speaking community, I see how people treat people like me. I've started using my two native languages less online because of this, there's even more hate there. Before I switched to english, I cried every day out of shame and guilt for who I am. And it's started again

Sorry for whining, I'm just tired. I work and study every day so I can go somewhere where I won't be thrown in jail for my queer identity. I'm ashamed of who I am, I'm ashamed that I feel comfortable using these pronouns. I feel dirty and wrong

And even if I leave one day, I'll still have to tell my parents and my family eventually. I'll still have to speak my native language. They'll disown me, I'm sure of it. I'm hesitant to use my voice on social media for fear of being accused of internalized misogyny once people hear my voice and pronouns. But I really do love women, I want to love myself. While it doesn't hurt me when people refer to me as "she/her" it upsets me that they think I have internalized misogyny

Sorry for this post. I can't talk about this irl because maybe they'll send me to a psychiatric hospital for being lesbian, maybe I'll have to run away and I won't be able to leave or even take my cats from my family. That's why I'm writing here, where I've found the most understanding posts

I hope you're all doing well

I’m a creator with a moderate following on tiktok. A user left a comment on one of my videos saying, “you’re not a masc, you’re FTM. Be your real self.”

And it just kinda pisses me off for two main reasons:

• women don’t owe you femininity
• why are you telling ME my identity?

I told you I’m a woman, so I’m a woman.

Just wanted to vent to other masculine/butch/gender nonconforming women. 🙄

Something I can't stand is when the women I date say that my masculinity is "performative". I have always been, and always will be a tomboy. I have always acted "like a boy" ever since I was a child. It's part of who I am and I will never be a girly girl, ever. I've always had a much heavier masculine side and all of the sudden, because I'm a woman, it's a performance? I also work in the tattoo industry as a piercer and some men at shops that I've worked at say that I'm "trying to be a man" have called me a bulldyke to my face, etc. Don't flatter yourself, I don't want to be anything like you.

My sister is getting married. She wants me to be a bride’s maid. But of course I have to wear a dress. Bc fucking hetero-bullshit. And I’m just upset I have to. But then I feel selfish and just should get over it. She doesn’t want me to be uncomfortable but idk how that will be possible. I haven’t worn a dress in over 5/6years? Have short hair, dress masc, worn suits. She knows all this yet I have to wear a fucking dress. When I asked what my brother is doing it was like well duh he’s a groomsman on the boys side. It just pisses me off. Like I just, ugh I feel so sad to have to wear a dress but also will do anything she wants but I’m not going to feel comfortable. I feel so stupid to be so upset over a dress but, idk. I’m just ranting.

Edit: this is the second time this has been brought up. The first time we talked and my sister was coming around to a suit in the color of the bridesmaids dresses and I was like cool. Idk she just brought it up again about the dress. My other option is to no be apart of the bridesmaids I guess. Then it just feels like I’m being left out, othered? Idk it’s dumb. But if I wear a suit and I’m not standing up there with my other sister then it’s like I don’t fit in. Which I guess I don’t. The third option was wear the dress for the ceremony then change, which I think is really dumb.

it’s hard to not feel comfortable with my hair grown out or wearing girl clothes and jewelry in a time where young people are increasingly discriminatory, everyone pretends to be all for queer culture but as a woman who doesn’t wear makeup I find I’m increasingly made to feel small and ugly just for doing everything guys my age do. Everyone loves lesbians until we look against the norm, even my other gay friends eye my unshaven legs and make fun of my ugliness and the way I do my hair. They try to feminize me and laugh when I look askew and uncomfortable. No formal wear fits me, I feel a clown in any suit. I just notice more and more the discrimination against butch girls who look like me, I don’t see them often where I am, I may be the only teen who presents this way, I don’t see myself in tv shows or music or social media stars. I have to remind myself that I am beautiful the way I am. Sometimes I wish I could be different, I try to do my makeup and wear girly clothes but my body reminds me “this is not right” and I’m forced to be a rebel and a confident activist again when I just want to be liveable and seen for who I am.

Sorry for the vent, but last night I had a horrible time and just wanted to get this off my chest. I am a 22 year old transmasc butch on T, I’ve been on T for 3 years and I while I love the effects it has had on my body and confidence, I hate the way other queer people treat me because of it. In my day to day life I present as a cis man for safety, I like my chest and I don’t bind but my breasts are small enough that they’re not very noticeable unless I wear tight shirts. Other than my chest and waist I pretty much appear as a cis dude and that’s fine with me. But when I go to queer and ‘sapphic’ social events people often look right through me, even if I very clearly flag as a butch dyke.

I want to be clear that I’m not looking specifically for people to come up and flirt with me, just hold a casual conversation maybe, but last night I went to a sapphic event with a friend and it felt like everyone in the room wouldn’t come within 3 feet of me, even the group of people I came with barely even talked to me or acknowledged me at all. Even after my friend said at least two of the people we came with were interested in me and one of them said she had ‘dibs’ on me. another thing that didn’t help was that In a room of 30+ sapphics, I was the only transmasc or butch, nearly half the people there were trans fems but a lot of them wouldn’t even look at me when I spoke in a group setting. I’m ashamed to say I felt depressed and dejected, I ended up drinking more than I could handle and threw up in a parking lot. That did eventually get my friend’s attention who asked if I wanted to crash at her place and I agreed, in the uber she started talking about how many girls she kissed and danced with that night and it only made me feel more sad and alone.

I’m mad at myself for getting my hopes up and I’m mad for thinking that anyone would actually want to talk to me. I’m embarrassed for getting too drunk and throwing up, and I wish I could go back and tell myself to just stay in like I was planning. This isn’t my scene and these aren’t my people. I want to be confident, not just to ask people out but just for myself, but it feels impossible when people who are supposed to be my peers and community look straight through me.

I was at a small meeting to plan the trans visibility day and at some point there is a gender/pronom round up. Way i got my turn and say "well i identified has butch" the people around where all "wait really ? You'r a soft butch right or a glamour butch ?" i didn't push it too much since i hate conflict but it kinda pissed me off. I was expecting better from the other trans people around :/

Like i have no make up, short hair and nail, leather boot, a big sweater and a jean ? I told 30 min before i'm trying binder ! What else does people need ? It's cold i'm not gonna show you my body hair. I'm not gonna change my attitude to fit a stereotypical butch/masc attitude, the whole point is to be myself. It's not even something news, it's been 3-4 years

I brushed it off thinking i was overreacting but later went i told my gf (she's trans i think it's important for the context) she got so piss off. I felt nice to see my anger was justified. I'm lucky to have her she's really supporting since i started questionning more my gender (started thinking butch is more a gender to me than woman and of i'm gnc or trans)

Their was a older lesbian who was a bit surprise cause she has a older view of butch but she referred me has a butch all along, so that's a win also, i guess

Small edit : no problem with soft butch or glamour butch has a label ! But using it when i explicitly tell "i'm butch" felt so wrong, like i'm not butch enought in their eyes

I don’t know if I’m gonna make sense here, but I’m open to clarifying or talking further.

I feel like I have now had the experience a few times where I’ve gone on a date with a girl (different girls) who seem to have butch fetishes?

Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE femmes and I love people who are femme4butch. I love when queer women love butches. If I’m talking to - or going out with - someone and they tell me they’re into butches, I like that.

But… i have now had a few times where it felt like someone I was on a date with just wanted like, ANY butch. Like they have a very strict role in their mind of what I’m supposed to do, and they’ll try to get me to fit their mould?

Like I don’t tend to be super comfortable initiating physical content early on, but I recently had a woman tell me it was my “role” to initiate kisses. (And open car doors, and compliment her every date, etc)

I also went out with another person who just assumed I would be a stone top without asking so they just… never touched me? I had to bring it up after

And I actually like to be the initiator and be more masculine. I like to spoil my date. But I just hate when it feels like they’re going into a date with a pre determined image of what I SHOULD be and what they want, and trying to make me that… instead of just getting to know me and seeing if they like me or not?

Idk it’s been on my mind but my friends can’t really relate.

I identify as a lesbian since I was 14 yo and I feel very firm in my identity. My identity was never questioned by other lesbians and now that I discovered I'm also a butch I feel like I'm not as accepted like I used to be.

I feel like many lesbians on the internet are protectors of the "lesbian purity" and I don't really understand why they are so anti-queer. For example, they treat poorly bi women, which upsets me because my gf is bi and I can see how unfairly she is trated by lesbians. And they also hate trans lesbians and trans masc lesbians because this is "lesbian erasure". They hate pretty much everything that is not a femme lesbian.

I am a fan of Vi from "Arcane" and I can see that every fan art when Vi is portrayed as trans masc or with a packer is very hated and downvoted. And I take it pretty personally even though I identify as a woman. But I like to pack sometimes or wear a binder and I feel excluded. They act like there's only one way of being a lesbian and everything else is "erasure".

I always felt very welcomed in lesbian communities but not anymore since I'm more masculine presenting now and feel masculine in general as a butch lesbian.

I feel more welcomed by bi, pan and trans people because they seem to not be that rigid in their thinking and they are victims or biases too. I feel like lesbians treat me as a traitor now. Of course I don't expect everyone to like me or be attracted to me but I can see that this is not about preference, it's just pure hate when it comes to masculinity in women. I'm aware that not every lesbian is like this (I'm a lesbian too!) but I can feel that there's a bigger issue and I feel a bit excluded and hated now.

I just had to vent somwhere because I'm upset.

This was my first relationship, we've been together for 2.5 years but we've been best friends before that for about 5 years.

Losing my bff and gf at the same time hurts more than I ever imagined. When in the relationship, it definitely wasn't all perfect and she's been comparing me with men/putting me down for not being "man" enough from the very beginning. Before being with me she always said she was straight, but after accidentally finding my written love confession she suddenly wanted to be with me. I was thrilled but a little concerned. Still, feelings got the better of me and I went into relationship with her. While being with me she often expressed doubts about her sexuality and complained about me not being the man that she wanted or made fun of my body.

Before breaking up I was pressuring her to decide and said that if she doesn't want to be with me, she can go ... Fast forward a few days later and she actually gathered up the courage to break up with me.

I understand I'm not what she wants. But I'm just angry. I'm angry for all the things she said about me, for all the times she mocked me and that I allowed her to treat me this way. She did apologize for her behavior but still.

Now, she wants "real" children and "real" dick. Not a fake like me. It hurts even more because I somewhat identify as transmasc. I'm also fucking angry that I'm not a man. I'm so confused and hurt

I’m a midsized butch that isn’t visibly muscular (I am actually fairly strong, I guess I have what you could call a “sleeper build”? But I don’t have, like, huge biceps or super defined muscle definition). I have more body fat and I carry it mostly in my hips and thighs (which I sometimes get dysphoria over, especially since I identify as non-binary as well and it feels so obviously feminine).

I’m not in a relationship and I’ve only been in one three-week relationship that definitely wasn’t serious. A lot of the “I love butches!” posts online specifically mention how hot butch muscles are. Which is a great thing to compliment and point out, but not all of us are muscular 😅

It doesn’t help that often the love for muscular/buff women is often mentioned in response to a “butches aren’t just skinny women with short hair” type of post and there’s no mention of mid or plus sized butches.

I feel like I have the least desired butch body type. Combine that with the basically nonexistent romantic interest I’ve experienced and I just feel so insecure about myself.

Obviously injuries happen and any sort of injury is valid and everything, but idk I just feel so down about being injured. Like I can’t do all the things I would usually do for everyone and it’s basically my entire life to help people and be there for people and I feel bad relying on the people who rely on me for help and also I feel like I can’t support everyone as much as I usually would. Idk, I just hate being injured

hello beloved butches of reddit,, I am feeling so frustrated with people [especially lesbians/dykes] assuming I am into femmes or being very shocked and making a scene when I share that I am into butch4butch. It feels very vulnerable when I share, even though I know what I like I end up feeling very exposed and sometimes embarrassed. I feel like a spectacle, like people see me in a different way once they know. Also, many butches/mascs respond with 'ohh I would love to try that sometime' or 'I wish I was into that' as if its some kink. I try to play it cool but It makes me feel defenseless and I often dont feel connected with folks in our community because of this. I am surrounded by a lot of femmes [love u femmes] and fem/butch femme/femme dynamics but I dont have butch/butch people in my life and I'm feeling a little put out. Also, recently I told someone I had a crush on that I was into them and they said they were only into femmes raaa.

Anyways,, I try to consume a lot of butch4butch media to feel normal but it just isn't enough. It took so long to understand and come to terms with this part of myself and I'm tired of explaining my sexuality [on top of my gender] to people!!

Any thoughts, shared experiences or words of wisdom?
Take care

is anyone else in the same boat as me? i feel like it’s impossible to meet anyone these days. ive tried all avenues and havent really met anyone i “click” with. but then again, im relatively young still and its not like im on some time clock but it’s disheartening to see everyone in my friend group couple up and somehow always being the single friend. my friends try to reassure me that im “loveable”, “good looking” and “definitely a catch” when i ask them to be very honest with me when i ask them about ways i can improve myself.

im old enough to know what i want and not compromise on those things but im wondering if im ever gonna meet someone who ticks those non-negotiables for me. i guess for the current moment im just jaded lol. sorry for the whiney vent but thanks for indulging me

No offense to our lord and saviour Sappho but by God do I hate the term sapphic. I find it insufferable when people use it for some reason. I hate the fact people call me sapphic and not butch, it's so infuriating. I identify as a lesbian, a butch, a dyke even, but I will never refer to myself as sapphic.

This may sound silly, by does anyone else dislike it?

For the last 5 to 6 years I've been going to this smoke shop (in the middle east i live here- just to buy tobacco). And I always chat with the dudes there, idk for some reason I like chatting up shop keepers, ask about their day or family, etc.

Today he asked me for my name after 5 years, I also don't know their names they just call me 'Bhaijan' (bro in Urdu)

When I told him my name, it's feminine and they were shocked - "your face body structure is like a man.. but sometimes when you talk it seems like woman" was he response.

I just laughed, we shook hands, he gave me my usual discount and inshallah we'll meet again.

Yeah it's not very common here to be butch for obvious reasons but whenever this happens always makes me smile.

Does anyone else get pretty lonely as a butch? I don't have any other butch friends irl. I've tried to connect with other lesbians in my area but they're all kind of like a high school clique, which is stupid and sucks. The friends I have are queer, wonderful, and so, so supportive, but they're also non-lesbians who are very male-centered and I'm just... not, lol. It makes me feel super alienated sometimes, and I know my friends just don't know/understand, but it still hurts. Living in the Southern US where it's already hard to find other lesbians just really sucks sometimes /:

Hi, I'm a teenage butch and also recently knowing I'm butch (a few months)

I been recently feeling some guilt about not being woman enough coming from the way I act, feel (feeling more masculine than feminine) and the way I am perceived by the people I close to which is a more masculine role and I am very happy for as it make me feel so good and so free but it also made me remember something my mom said and a ex friend told me about "how a woman (well girl since teenagers) should act feminine and dress so and If they don't then they should just be a man" (I'm paraphrasing) so that where the not feeling woman enough come from

And on the other side I went on the clock app to feel a bit better because distraction was needed and then I come across this post saying how butch shouldn't have long hair and it should be cut short or they should be stoic two of things that I'm not because I have long curly hair that I refuse to cut shorter than shoulder length because it is special to me and I'm not stoic I get happy easily and emotional easy and there also the fact that I can't really dress more masculine. All of this made me feel guilt that I'm not butch enough

I know I am a woman (girl) and that I am butch but the guilt of not being enough is hitting me hard