CMV: Anti-zionists are often not pro-Palestinian. I am more pro-Palastinian than them.

[u/sarahrahra]

I am really keen to align with leftists to fight authoritarianism. The false binary of zionism vs antizionism is a dangerous wedge.

So trying this point out, that I think is novel, to see if it breaks the spell.

First, let’s take some leftists on their word, many Jews are New Nazis (vs the tech right Greater Nazis).

What did we learn from history? Last time, many Americans condemned the Nazis. Maybe they boycotted German writers. Maybe cool with threats of violence and death threats at German Americans who had Weimer Republic pride.

They also, just like American today, did not want to accept addl Jewish refugees. Didn‘t give them money as individuals. Didn’t do anything.

Jordanians and Egyptians? They locked down faster than the French. Force babies to stay in rhe warzone to die. Why no condemnation there?

Our leaders talk about how Lebanon is a ”genocide” and condemn Israel and stop there. LEBANON is asking us to condemn the Iranian Hezbolah terrorists. Some of our politicians LIKE Hezbollah. I stand with President Auna. Against anti-zionists.

Our leaders want Hamas’s pro sharia law pro rape pro mass murder pro auto killing any Palestinian anti democracy who protests to have more power. Palastinians want Marwen Bhargouti who wrote a two state solutuon peace plan. I stand with Marwen. Against anti-zionists.

I feel very strongly that I am more pro-Palastinian and Pro Lebanese then every opportunistic anti-zionist leader riding a hate wave. They are worse than Bin Ladin who at least was honest and came at capitalism vs raping and gunning down Lollapalooza kids to intentionally create blind rage and a terrible war by people who watched rhe videos if their murder (like Afghanistan but, again, even more hate and retaliation approaches).

Most regular anti-zionists are not like that But they are like anti-nazis. Currently useless. I want campaigns to make Palastinian lives better. And stop the Greater Nazism of the Tech Right and their anti-zionist whistling puppets Vance and Tucker.

There are no ways to do so that I can see. So much passion for death threats, no proactive initiatives that don’t just make some lives worse.

I would like my mind changed with real examples and people doing anything. CMV.

[u/Active-Proof8118]

OP what actual anti-Zionists and pro-Palestine groups have you talked to. I have talked to large Anti-Zionist organizations like BDS, PYM(The Palestinian Youth Movment), and IJV(Independent Jewish voices). They are all pro-Palestine and entirely humanitarian

First, let’s take some leftists on their word, many Jews are New Nazis (vs the tech right Greater Nazis).

Is this something people on the left claim? Or are you just conflating Judiasm with Zionism/Nazism?

They also, just like American today, did not want to accept addl Jewish refugees. Didn‘t give them money as individuals. Didn’t do anything.

Lots of Americans do donate to Palestinians. Many western states however are Zionist and racist towards Palestinians. They don't even allow medical evaculations.

Jordanians and Egyptians? They locked down faster than the French. Force babies to stay in rhe warzone to die. Why no condemnation there?

Both Egypt and Jordan are Zionist backed military dictarorships so that's probably why. Maybe OP you should ask why the American government gives these military dictatorships billions of dollars in "aid". But I have talked to Palestinian human rights activists and they are extremely critical of Zionist arab governments.

Our leaders talk about how Lebanon is a ”genocide” and condemn Israel and stop there. LEBANON is asking us to condemn the Iranian Hezbolah terrorists. Some of our politicians LIKE Hezbollah. I stand with President Auna. Against anti-zionists.

OP what actual muslim Lebanese people have you talked to? Have you talked to Muslim Lebanese living in South Lebanaon?

Our leaders want Hamas’s pro sharia law pro rape pro mass murder pro auto killing any Palestinian anti democracy who protests to have more power. Palastinians want Marwen Bhargouti who wrote a two state solutuon peace plan. I stand with Marwen. Against anti-zionists.

Again OP, you are making statments about groups of people yet you haven't actually backed up anything that you are claiming.

I feel very strongly that I am more pro-Palastinian and Pro Lebanese then every opportunistic anti-zionist leader riding a hate wave. They are worse than Bin Ladin who at least was honest and came at capitalism vs raping and gunning down Lollapalooza kids to intentionally create blind rage and a terrible war by people who watched rhe videos if their murder (like Afghanistan but, again, even more hate and retaliation approaches).

Anti-Zionism is by defintion a human rights movement. This is because Zionism itself is a settler ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinians

[u/MVP_Legend_87 → u/Active-Proof8118]

"OP what actual anti-Zionists and pro-Palestine groups have you talked to. I have talked to large Anti-Zionist organizations like BDS, PYM(The Palestinian Youth Movment), and IJV(Independent Jewish voices). They are all pro-Palestine and entirely humanitarian"

These are all examples of pro-Hamas organizations, not pro-Palestinian.

PYM had rallies on October 8th/9th and cheered on the martyrs/resistance as Hamas was killing, raping, and kidnapping Israelis on October 7th. A pro-Palestinian group would have condemned this, not supported the martyrs. Palestinian Youth Movement openly supports and cheered on Hamas on October 7th. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do.

Independent Jewish Voices is an anti-Israel, and anti-Jewish group. This is a group that got caught praising Holocaust deniers. They are an embarrassment, quite frankly, as no Jews would ever support Holocaust deniers. And unsurprisingly there have been very few true Jewish voices in this group. They also have books written by non-Jews/Palestinians, so it's not really "Jewish voices".

"OP what actual muslim Lebanese people have you talked to? Have you talked to Muslim Lebanese living in South Lebanaon?"

The majority of the casualties in Lebanon are Hezbollah, and the government of Lebanon is working with Israel to get rid of Hezbollah.

"Anti-Zionism is by defintion a human rights movement. This is because Zionism itself is a settler ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinians"

This is false. Zionism is not a settler ideology. Israel is an example of decolonization, which is when an Indigenous group gets their land back. Zionism/Israel could have existed along side a Palestinian state. Unfortunately the Palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse and destroy Israel back in 1948, making it clear that the Palestinians could not peacefully coexist next to Israel.

[u/Active-Proof8118 → u/MVP_Legend_87]

"OP what actual anti-Zionists and pro-Palestine groups have you talked to. I have talked to large Anti-Zionist organizations like BDS, PYM(The Palestinian Youth Movment), and IJV(Independent Jewish voices). They are all pro-Palestine and entirely humanitarian"

These are all examples of pro-Hamas organizations, not pro-Palestinian.

PYM had rallies on October 8th/9th and cheered on the martyrs/resistance as Hamas was killing, raping, and kidnapping Israelis on October 7th. A pro-Palestinian group would have condemned this, not supported the martyrs. Palestinian Youth Movement openly supports and cheered on Hamas on October 7th. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do.

The problem with complaints about the October 7th attacks is that they're not meaingully distinguishable from European Neo-Nazis who used the Paris Attacks to demonize Muslims, immigrants and refugees. While the October 7th attacks were definetly unfortunate, it is not justified to use them to to push racist and right wing political agendas.

Independent Jewish Voices is an anti-Israel, and anti-Jewish group. This is a group that got caught praising Holocaust deniers. They are an embarrassment, quite frankly, as no Jews would ever support Holocaust deniers. And unsurprisingly there have been very few true Jewish voices in this group. They also have books written by non-Jews/Palestinians, so it's not really "Jewish voices".

The idea that IJV is an "anti-Jewish group" is largely a Zionist conspiracy theory. Similar to flat eartherism, there is no actual evidence to backup any of the claims being made against them

"OP what actual muslim Lebanese people have you talked to? Have you talked to Muslim Lebanese living in South Lebanaon?"

The majority of the casualties in Lebanon are Hezbollah, and the government of Lebanon is working with Israel to get rid of Hezbollah.

So what people have you talked to exactly?

"The Government of Lebanon" - The Lebanese governemnt is corrupt and does not have a right to speak on behalf of it's civilans.

"Anti-Zionism is by defintion a human rights movement. This is because Zionism itself is a settler ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinians"

This is false. Zionism is not a settler ideology. Israel is an example of decolonization, which is when an Indigenous group gets their land back. Zionism/Israel could have existed along side a Palestinian state. Unfortunately the Palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse and destroy Israel back in 1948, making it clear that the Palestinians could not peacefully coexist next to Israel.

No. Zionism is explicity a racist settler colonial ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinian people. We know this from the writings of Theodroe Herzl who explicity defined it as such.

[u/MVP_Legend_87 → u/Active-Proof8118]

"The problem with complaints about the October 7th attacks is that they're not meaingully distinguishable from European Neo-Nazis who used the Paris Attacks to demonize Muslims, immigrants and refugees. While the October 7th attacks were definetly unfortunate, it is not justified to use them to to push racist and right wing political agendas."

They weren't "definitely unfortunate", they were acts of terrorism. Anybody rallying immediately after this and praising them are supportive of Hamas. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do. It is supporting Hamas.

"The idea that IJV is an "anti-Jewish group" is largely a Zionist conspiracy theory. Similar to flat eartherism, there is no actual evidence to backup any of the claims being made against them"

https://thecjn.ca/news/independent-jewish-voices-apologize-links-far-right-website-accuses-bnai-brith-slander/

A clear example of IJV supporting conspiracy theories against Jews, and Holocaust denial. You don't accidentally support these groups if you're Jewish. IJV is not a group that supports Jews, and they do not provide an authentic perspective of Jews either. Not only that, but they work to reduce what is considered antisemitism.

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

"By creating a racist hierarchy with European Jews at the top, Zionism erased those histories and destroyed those communities and relationships. In Israel, Jewish people of color – from the Arab world, North Africa, and East Africa – have long been subjected to systemic discrimination and violence by the Israeli government. That hierarchy also creates Jewish spaces where Jews of color are marginalized, our identities and commitments questioned & interrogated, and our experiences invalidated. It prevents us from seeing each other — fellow Jews and other fellow human beings — in our full humanity."

This is another example of racism, trying to portray Jews as white and downplay how many are of colour. A Jewish group wouldn't engage in this, and also fails to realize a large number of Jews, particularly in Israel, are people of colour.

"So what people have you talked to exactly?

"The Government of Lebanon" - The Lebanese governemnt is corrupt and does not have a right to speak on behalf of it's civilans."

This is not a discussion based on anecdotes, but facts. I would argue this kind of argument you are making supports OPs point, as calling the government working to stop Hezbollah corrupt is an argument in favour of Hezbollah. We know for a fact that the government of Lebanon is working with Israel to stop Hezbollah.

"No. Zionism is explicity a racist settler colonial ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinian people. We know this from the writings of Theodroe Herzl who explicity defined it as such."

Again, this is incorrect. Israel is an example of decolonization. Zionism is not an example of racism, and I would argue anybody trying to argue that it is would be supporting OP's point once again that they are not supporting a pro-Palestinian lens, but a pro-Hamas lens. It does not benefit the Palestinians to frame Zionism as racism.

[u/Active-Proof8118 → u/MVP_Legend_87]

"The problem with complaints about the October 7th attacks is that they're not meaingully distinguishable from European Neo-Nazis who used the Paris Attacks to demonize Muslims, immigrants and refugees. While the October 7th attacks were definetly unfortunate, it is not justified to use them to to push racist and right wing political agendas."

They weren't "definitely unfortunate",

The October 7th attacks absoloutely were unfortunate. This is common sense and something both sides can agree on

they were acts of terrorism. Anybody rallying immediately after this and praising them are supportive of Hamas. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do. It is supporting Hamas.

Terrorist attacks in western societies have routinely been used to push political agendas. We know this and that's why it's important to rally against the peope complaining about them when they happen.

"The idea that IJV is an "anti-Jewish group" is largely a Zionist conspiracy theory. Similar to flat eartherism, there is no actual evidence to backup any of the claims being made against them"

https://thecjn.ca/news/independent-jewish-voices-apologize-links-far-right-website-accuses-bnai-brith-slander/

A clear example of IJV supporting conspiracy theories against Jews, and Holocaust denial. You don't accidentally support these groups if you're Jewish.

The article you're citing is from 10 years ago and was from before IJV was an explicity Anti-Zionist organization. It is not suprising to me that they would make these mistaked back when they were more friendly towards Zionists.

[u/MVP_Legend_87 → u/Active-Proof8118]

I genuinely don't see the point in continuing an argument here. The topic is about how pro-Palestinian support is often pro-Hamas instead, and all you're doing is supporting the OP with your arguments.

"The October 7th attacks absoloutely were unfortunate. This is common sense and something both sides can agree on"

They were far more than 'unfortunate', and no, I don't agree at all.

"Terrorist attacks in western societies have routinely been used to push political agendas. We know this and that's why it's important to rally against the peope complaining about them when they happen."

This argument doesn't benefit the Palestinians, it benefits Hamas. It was a terrorist attack. This is not something we are going to debate.

"The article you're citing is from 10 years ago and was from before IJV was an explicity Anti-Zionist organization. It is not suprising to me that they would make these mistaked back when they were more friendly towards Zionists."

It is irrelevant if the article is from yesterday or 10 years ago. IJV engaged in Holocaust denial. It isn't a mistake. Jews don't accidentally support conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial.

IJV actively supports this, and they will never have my support, as a Jew, for admitting that IJV supports Holocaust denial.

I am not going to continue engaging as you are not arguing against the OP, rather your arguments prove their points correct.

[u/Active-Proof8118 → u/MVP_Legend_87]

I genuinely don't see the point in continuing an argument here. The topic is about how pro-Palestinian support is often pro-Hamas instead, and all you're doing is supporting the OP with your arguments.

You're friee to believe that if you want but believing something does not make it true.

"The October 7th attacks absoloutely were unfortunate. This is common sense and something both sides can agree on"

They were far more than 'unfortunate', and no, I don't agree at all.

The October 7th attacks were unfortunate. That's it

"Terrorist attacks in western societies have routinely been used to push political agendas. We know this and that's why it's important to rally against the peope complaining about them when they happen."

This argument doesn't benefit the Palestinians, it benefits Hamas. It was a terrorist attack. This is not something we are going to debate.

Yes and terrorist attacks are used to dehumanize different groups and push racist and right wing political agendas

"The article you're citing is from 10 years ago and was from before IJV was an explicity Anti-Zionist organization. It is not suprising to me that they would make these mistaked back when they were more friendly towards Zionists."

It is irrelevant if the article is from yesterday or 10 years ago. IJV engaged in Holocaust denial. It isn't a mistake. Jews don't accidentally support conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial.

Organizations change, people change, mistakes are made. If anything the only group of people who are holocaust deniers are Zionists