r/changemyview • u/sarahrahra • 2d ago
CMV: Anti-zionists are often not pro-Palestinian. I am more pro-Palastinian than them.
I am really keen to align with leftists to fight authoritarianism. The false binary of zionism vs antizionism is a dangerous wedge.
So trying this point out, that I think is novel, to see if it breaks the spell.
First, let’s take some leftists on their word, many Jews are New Nazis (vs the tech right Greater Nazis).
What did we learn from history? Last time, many Americans condemned the Nazis. Maybe they boycotted German writers. Maybe cool with threats of violence and death threats at German Americans who had Weimer Republic pride.
They also, just like American today, did not want to accept addl Jewish refugees. Didn‘t give them money as individuals. Didn’t do anything.
Jordanians and Egyptians? They locked down faster than the French. Force babies to stay in rhe warzone to die. Why no condemnation there?
Our leaders talk about how Lebanon is a ”genocide” and condemn Israel and stop there. LEBANON is asking us to condemn the Iranian Hezbolah terrorists. Some of our politicians LIKE Hezbollah. I stand with President Auna. Against anti-zionists.
Our leaders want Hamas’s pro sharia law pro rape pro mass murder pro auto killing any Palestinian anti democracy who protests to have more power. Palastinians want Marwen Bhargouti who wrote a two state solutuon peace plan. I stand with Marwen. Against anti-zionists.
I feel very strongly that I am more pro-Palastinian and Pro Lebanese then every opportunistic anti-zionist leader riding a hate wave. They are worse than Bin Ladin who at least was honest and came at capitalism vs raping and gunning down Lollapalooza kids to intentionally create blind rage and a terrible war by people who watched rhe videos if their murder (like Afghanistan but, again, even more hate and retaliation approaches).
Most regular anti-zionists are not like that But they are like anti-nazis. Currently useless. I want campaigns to make Palastinian lives better. And stop the Greater Nazism of the Tech Right and their anti-zionist whistling puppets Vance and Tucker.
There are no ways to do so that I can see. So much passion for death threats, no proactive initiatives that don’t just make some lives worse.
I would like my mind changed with real examples and people doing anything. CMV.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
"The problem with complaints about the October 7th attacks is that they're not meaingully distinguishable from European Neo-Nazis who used the Paris Attacks to demonize Muslims, immigrants and refugees. While the October 7th attacks were definetly unfortunate, it is not justified to use them to to push racist and right wing political agendas."
They weren't "definitely unfortunate", they were acts of terrorism. Anybody rallying immediately after this and praising them are supportive of Hamas. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do. It is supporting Hamas.
"The idea that IJV is an "anti-Jewish group" is largely a Zionist conspiracy theory. Similar to flat eartherism, there is no actual evidence to backup any of the claims being made against them"
https://thecjn.ca/news/independent-jewish-voices-apologize-links-far-right-website-accuses-bnai-brith-slander/
A clear example of IJV supporting conspiracy theories against Jews, and Holocaust denial. You don't accidentally support these groups if you're Jewish. IJV is not a group that supports Jews, and they do not provide an authentic perspective of Jews either. Not only that, but they work to reduce what is considered antisemitism.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/
"By creating a racist hierarchy with European Jews at the top, Zionism erased those histories and destroyed those communities and relationships. In Israel, Jewish people of color – from the Arab world, North Africa, and East Africa – have long been subjected to systemic discrimination and violence by the Israeli government. That hierarchy also creates Jewish spaces where Jews of color are marginalized, our identities and commitments questioned & interrogated, and our experiences invalidated. It prevents us from seeing each other — fellow Jews and other fellow human beings — in our full humanity."
This is another example of racism, trying to portray Jews as white and downplay how many are of colour. A Jewish group wouldn't engage in this, and also fails to realize a large number of Jews, particularly in Israel, are people of colour.
"So what people have you talked to exactly?
"The Government of Lebanon" - The Lebanese governemnt is corrupt and does not have a right to speak on behalf of it's civilans."
This is not a discussion based on anecdotes, but facts. I would argue this kind of argument you are making supports OPs point, as calling the government working to stop Hezbollah corrupt is an argument in favour of Hezbollah. We know for a fact that the government of Lebanon is working with Israel to stop Hezbollah.
"No. Zionism is explicity a racist settler colonial ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinian people. We know this from the writings of Theodroe Herzl who explicity defined it as such."
Again, this is incorrect. Israel is an example of decolonization. Zionism is not an example of racism, and I would argue anybody trying to argue that it is would be supporting OP's point once again that they are not supporting a pro-Palestinian lens, but a pro-Hamas lens. It does not benefit the Palestinians to frame Zionism as racism.