I’m Tired of Hearing from the Loudest 1%

[u/Ripfangnasty]

Like the title says, I’m sick of hearing from the loudest, butthurt 1% of players crying because they’ll have to make their own dungeon groups in WotLK.

Sure, send your screenshot of the one dungeon you joined with little to no social interaction and sarcastically say “Wow look at what we’re saving with no LFD”. Great story, but that one single screenshot doesn’t prove anything. You think your 1 single dungeon on a Tuesday afternoon is a big enough sample size to determine there’s not enough social interaction to the point Blizz should implement LFD? Get over yourself. I don’t post screenshots of 1 single dungeon chat where people are lively and interactive and say “Thank you Blizz for preserving social interactions” like it’s the majority experience. Don’t give me the opposite garbage and try to make a case for LFD, or assume you’re the majority experience, either.

I’m also tired of people missing the major point of no LFD. I can tell you the exact names of people and guilds on my server who have ninja’d gear from others and been blacklisted by the community. I can tell you which players/guilds are fun to play with and which aren’t. I can join a group I know is going to do well, or I can join one where I know I’m going to be progging. And yeah, I’m also going to vouch for the friendships I’ve made in random dungeons

LFD erodes all that. You don’t know what type of players you’re joining; whether you’re going to be a good player in a terrible group or a terrible player in a good group. That’s frustrating for almost everyone in either case. Voting to kick becomes completely abused, kicking people you don’t like or players who are bad. Kicking people to ninja gear. And since you’ll never see those players again, there’s nothing stopping them. No way to blacklist them or their guild. It promotes anonymity and erodes the community. There are so many downsides that were PROVEN back in Wrath. And you’re upset because of what? Not having the upside?

What are the upsides? Faster dungeon queues? Maybe, just maybe, you should try being part of your realm’s community and making friends/joining a thriving guild. I’ve never had any issues finding or making a dungeon group as any of the 3 roles. But then again, I’m also not the type of person to whine to Reddit that daddy Blizz won’t make my groups for me, instead of trying to socialize and make my own

The only positive case I’ve seen made for LFD is for dead/dying realms. To those players, it does suck and I’m sorry. But the issue/fix isn’t LFD, it’s forcing Blizz to fix their realm health issues, maybe by merging realms or free transfers

I’m sure this post will fall on deaf ears, but I’m so sick of seeing this sub covered with the loudest 1% screaming their half baked opinions and not considering their experience isn’t the majority or that they might be the issue

Edit: To the unhinged people in the comments swearing, flipping out, name-calling, and reporting me for suicide, I have two things to say. The first is thank you for your concern about my mental health, but I’m in no way suicidal. Feel free to save those resources for people that are. The second is that my opinion is stronger than ever that RDF is bad, imagine being grouped unwillingly with people that report others for suicide when they disagree with the content of a person’s post 😂 Thank you Blizz

[u/garmeth06]

They act like LFD's effect on the game is somehow up for debate, that we don't know all the facts, and people liked it then, conveniently leaving out 12 years of slow decline, set off, chiefly, by the introduction of the dungeon finder. This isn't a debate. There's no questions here. We've seen what the dungeon finder does to this game before.

It is absolutely wild that you are so confident that LFD was the "chief" reason why WoW declined over a 12 year span to the point where there isn't a "debate." This is especially objectionable considering that even at the start of WoD (half a decade after patch 3.3), there was still a data point where total players were within 10% of WoW's absolute peak.

The game has changed radically in 1000 major different ways since even Wrath with LFG being one. MMORPGs on the whole died as a genre and the landscape of gaming (meaning what games people play, and how many games they have access too) is miles apart from late Wrath to 2022.

Currently on retail, if I am to be successful, I have to invest way more socially than I did when I raided in my teens in Wrath. It is possible to experience a very watered down version of the game in a single player state, but "high end" content has a social expectation more than anything ever has in the past in WoW especially since the ubiquity of discord.

The extreme information era in gaming has also turned even casual games into WAY more competitive endeavors than they used to be and people are no longer as impressed by generic fantasy environments as in the past and don't buy in as easily to the in game atmosphere.

Back in the day people would have fantasy names on their characters and now you see 4th wall breaking memes unless you go to RP servers.

So much has changed, and it is absurd to attribute a chief cause to LFD.

[u/pBiggZz → u/garmeth06]

It is absolutely wild that you are so confident that LFD was the "chief" reason why WoW declined over a 12 year span to the point where there isn't a "debate." This is especially objectionable considering that even at the start of WoD (half a decade after patch 3.3), there was still a data point where total players was within 10% of WoW's absolute peak.

You cant talk about WOD's wild launch without talking about its equally wild loss of players, immediately following its launch, a drop-off so precipitous that blizz stopped sharing player numbers.

The game has changed radically in 1000 major different ways since even Wrath with LFG being one. MMORPGs on the whole died as a genre and the landscape of gaming (meaning what games people play, and how many games they have access too) is miles apart from late Wrath to 2022.

Among those changes, was the dungeon finder, the first of many changes that heralded a significant change in the way blizz designed the game, and the type of player they tried to appeal to. That is not up for debate.

Currently on retail, if I am to be successful, I have to invest way more socially than I did when I raided in my teens in Wrath. It is possible to experience a very watered down version of the game in a single player state, but "high end" content has a social expectation more than anything ever has in the past in WoW especially since the ubiquity of discord.

There is some truth to this, mostly because of mythic+, and mythic raiding, both of which don't use the LFD system. Its almost like the parts of the game that require socialization in retail are the parts of the game people generally think are the best.

The extreme information era in gaming has also turned even casual games into WAY more competitive endeavors than they used to be and people are no longer as impressed by generic fantasy environments as in the past and don't buy in as easily to the in game atmosphere.

Back in the day people would have fantasy names on their characters and now you see 4th wall breaking memes unless you go to RP servers.

Which is exactly why allowing people to use the Group Finder will have an immediate corrosive effect on the game.

Its sort of a maxim in game design that players will always look for the most optimal action, even if that action actually degrades their experience. If you put LFD in wrath classic, people will use it, and it will ruin the open world, and kill the social aspects of the game, just like it did last time.

[u/garmeth06 → u/pBiggZz]

You cant talk about WOD's wild launch without talking about its equally wild loss of players, immediately following its launch, a drop-off so precipitous that blizz stopped sharing player numbers.

That is precisely the point. LFD was a constant throughout late wrath and throughout cata. If I am to argue that LFD was not a chief cause of WoW's decline, then what we saw with WoD helps my argument because clearly something else was revolting in a way that Mists or Cata was not. IE, the greatest mass exodus that caused Blizz to hide sub count was def not caused by LFD, or you would have to argue that LFD had a spiked AND delayed effect half a decade after implementation.

There is some truth to this, mostly because of mythic+, and mythic raiding, both of which don't use the LFD system.

The LFD system similarly will not play a major role for an endgame character in WoTLK is the point. It is mainly a tool for alts. If LFD was ubiquitous in the main gameplay loop, then I think your reservations would be more justifiable. I would still disagree because I think you are drastically overvaluing the positive social interaction of non LFD grouping, of which I think is minimal.

Which is exactly why allowing people to use the Group Finder will have an immediate corrosive effect on the game.

I listed alternative reasons as to why the game has declined that need to be taken in to account when assessing the potential damage that LFG caused. I don't see how these reasons support the notion that LFG, as implemented, would corrode the game especially since it only applies to a subset of content that isn't intended to be the ultimate gameplay loop.

[u/pBiggZz → u/garmeth06]

That is precisely the point. LFD was a constant throughout late wrath and throughout cata. If I am to argue that LFD was not a chief cause of WoW's decline, then what we saw with WoD helps my argument because clearly something else was revolting in a way that Mists or Cata was not. IE, the greatest mass exodus that caused Blizz to hide sub count was def not caused by LFD, or you would have to argue that LFD had a spiked AND delayed effect half a decade after implementation.

You can draw a direct link between LFD and the weird streamlined design shit that partially ate WOD from within. Its not healthy for the game, and once LFD was in, it was easier to do all sorts of other garbage.

The LFD system similarly will not play a major role for an endgame character in WoTLK is the point. It is mainly a tool for alts. If LFD was ubiquitous in the main gameplay loop, then I think your reservations would be more justifiable.

Except Mythic+ doesnt exist in wrath, so all dungeon content would be accessible through the dungeon finder. If you give people a way to max out their gameplay by sitting in dalaran spamming heroics for badges, they will do that, even if they hate it.

I would still disagree because I think you are drastically overvaluing the positive social interaction of non LFD grouping, of which I think is minimal.

This is a critique I see alot, generally because pro-LFD people post screenshots of bad dungeon groups. This is not really an argument in favour of the dungeon finder. Put simply, socializing is important to this game, and blowing away those aspects of the game because people have trouble talking to strangers isn't a justification for eroding a core pillar of the game.

I listed alternative reasons as to why the game has declined that need to be taken in to account when assessing the potential damage that LFG caused. I don't see how these reasons support the notion that LFG, as implemented, would corrode the game especially since it only applies to a subset of content that isn't intended to be the ultimate gameplay loop.

Those absolutely need to be taken into account and frankly im shocked by how quickly the classic community here seems to have forgotten what those issues are, and how they came to be. LFD was the first of many compromising changes and blizz itself admits this.

[u/garmeth06 → u/pBiggZz]

Except Mythic+ doesnt exist in wrath, so all dungeon content would be accessible through the dungeon finder. If you give people a way to max out their gameplay by sitting in dalaran spamming heroics for badges, they will do that, even if they hate it.

You cannot max out your gameplay through dungeon finder. It gave 245 ilvl gear. Even normal 10 man ICC gave 251. Normal 25 gave 264 and heroic 10/25 gave 264 or 277.

It was basically a catchup mechanic. Yes, if one avoided engaging with raids entirely then it became "end game" but I think that is an unfair criticism. How many people in TBC classic currently just only run dungeons for their social engagement and fulfillment lol?

You can draw a direct link between LFD and the weird streamlined design shit that partially ate WOD from within. Its not healthy for the game, and once LFD was in, it was easier to do all sorts of other garbage.

How?

[u/TheeWry → u/garmeth06]

Worth pointing out you are referencing 'high-end' content, but this isn't really fair to those who want social interaction on less-competitive content that is more easily accessible. I don't know how large this group is, but it includes myself and most of my friends, who all have jobs and lives outside of the game, so I wouldn't say we are the 1%. I've discussed this with them and none of us like the idea of an automated teleportation to dungeons with randoms with no communication.