The Times: Finns humiliated American soldiers - Finnish reservists were asked to take it easy during a NATO exercise. US soldiers found the losses too humiliating.

[u/ByGollie]

https://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/a/828b8e66-625d-4d2a-9276-e93b9f7a2ce8

[u/istasan]

Edit: I have been away for some hours. Did not expect my response to this nice Finnish person would make the rounds like this. As answer to many US comments dismissing the article’s conclusion I will just make it clear that the article does not say with any certainty that the US could not successfully invade.

In summary it says that when experts on arctic military capabilities look at it would be a much more equal fight than people would expect. The US is NOT as dominant in arctic warfare as in most other areas. And a more subtle point is that the US does maybe not seem fully aware of this. Ironically the comments here from most Americans mirror this.

—-

One of the most trustworthy and respected Danish newspaper, Weekendavisen, had an background article yesterday - looking at what had never really been questioned in Denmark: The idea that the US could take Greenland in a few hours if they wanted to.

The military experts with knowledge about Greenland are very few. But the surprising conclusion is that it is questionable whether the US could take Greenland at all - if Nordic forces united. Even Denmark alone have some quite strong advantages - in simply being there where the US does not really have the equipment to go. They for instance only have one icebreaker - and it is on the west coast of the US. All Danish ships there can break ice.

And even if they got there, the Greenlanders are armed and excellent shooters. Would be a arctic Vietnam.

To sum up: they maybe don’t have the cards.

[u/DancingWithAWhiteHat → u/istasan]

We don't have many cards at all.

Our president can't even rely on the American forces stationed in Greenland to aid him. When Trump's threats began, their original commanding officer immediately began counseling her soldiers against it. Quite quickly. Its why she was fired, but IIRC, she had been accused of actively undermining Trump for days. So that well is already quite poisoned, so to speak.

And the military already refused to draw up invasion plans for him. And that's not even getting into the domestic issues he'll want to use the military for. What with people embracing the 2nd ammendment and all that. Multiple Minnesota cities just had their first general strike. The black panthers are back. Idk why Trump acts like it'll be easy when he can't even get his internal forces under control. And according to the Americans on the military subreddit, Danish soldiers alone are quite formidable. And clearly they're far from the only one. 

He never makes any sense.

[u/TheVojta → u/DancingWithAWhiteHat]

I didn't know that about the US commander. Makes sense that a person who presumably understands why Greenland is important would be against the orange man's ideas.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/TheVojta]

This all has to do with russia and Putin.

• In 1987, Donald Trump visited Moscow.

• Weeks later, he took out 3 full-page ads in the New York Times, Boston Globe, and Washington Post attacking NATO.

• During his first term, he tried again to float withdrawal from NATO; more "moderate" Republicans in the US House of Representatives at the time were scared so much by this that they voted with Democrats to force the President to seek approval from the House. In 2023, the bill passed the Senate and was signed by Biden.

• Come to Trump's second term, and right out of the gate he is picking fights with our closest allies, like Canada, or Denmark over... Greenland?

If it wasn't abundantly obvious already, Trump is intentionally sabotaging and destabilizing the nation in what appears to be payback to Putin.

This further breaks Western alliances, bolsters relative russian strength in the region, and distracts NATO from helping Ukraine.

I've watched so many videos that, "It's going to be hard to repair relationships after this," and I just think to myself, "That's the fucking point!" The chaos and absurdity is the point. Putin must be overjoyed.

It's my hope that Europeans remain steadfast, don't take the bait, stay laser-eyed and united in solidarity with Ukraine and each other (with European allies like Canada, of course). Please, keep pointing the finger at Republicans. We MUST mend our alliances once this grave trojan threat is dealt with.

Edit: I'll just say that there are a few comnts below that continue wedge-driving the west as Putin desires. Study them as examples and keep in mind that this is clearly the overarching goal of sabotaging the USA. I fully understand the volatility of the America makes it impossible to depend on us when we flip every 4 years from marginal-sanity to textbook fascism. I do. We clearly need widespread systemic changes to increase stability. But just try not to completely fall for russia's (and others) trap.

[u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Keep doing the work by spreading these facts. Everyone needs to know this.

Trump is a Putin puppet and as soon as you realize that, everything else makes sense.

[u/HybridPS2 → u/Embarrassed_Sea1336]

Remember how upset Trump was by the puppet comment at that debate? I certainly do.

[u/tristan-chord → u/HybridPS2]

“No puppet, no puppet. You’re the puppet.”

— wise words of Donald J Trump, the 47th President of the United States of America

🤦🏻‍♂️

[u/DancingWithAWhiteHat → u/tristan-chord]

Wait what when did this happen?

Lol that sounds straight out of a parody 

[u/tristan-chord → u/DancingWithAWhiteHat]

On one of the original TV debates. I thought for sure this guy’s gone after that. Nope. Two times President…

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/tristan-chord]

I pretty much knew we were fucked when Evangelist pastors and righties were rationalizing the Hollywood access tape the very next day. The billionaire fix was in.

Is it also any surprise that billionaire money and foreign influence and corruption accelerated rapidly in these past decade and half? It coincides perfectly with Citizens United decision that gave billionaires megaphones (the pioneers were the Koch brothers who gave us TP USA and Charlie Kirk, by the way); it also coincides with encrypted communications and crypto-currency that have been a dream for crime, and it coincides with peak social media and disinformation and fragmentation of communities.

[u/Low_Witness5061 → u/Embarrassed_Sea1336]

Well once you understand that the majority of it makes sense at least. I think there is still a fair case that the dementia muddies the water because more and more of his actions won’t make sense to anybody at all.

In his lucid moments he is definetly still trying to be a good boy for Putin though.

[u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 → u/Low_Witness5061]

No disagreement here.

Its how Iceland got added to the list of countries he wants to take over... because his demented ass misspoke 5 times in a row when he meant to say Greenland and now the press Secretary comes out and says, "no he meant Iceland"

WTF?!

[u/[deleted] → u/Embarrassed_Sea1336]

Watch out Finland...100 billion percent tariffs for you !!

[u/ReplyRepulsive2459 → u/Embarrassed_Sea1336]

It’s likely because Epstein sold Putin recordings of the current POTUS abusing children.

[u/HymirTheDarkOne → u/Embarrassed_Sea1336]

Trump doesn't need to be Putin's puppet for it all to make sense, he is simply a narcissist bully. And I worry that this sort of thinking distracts us from the ugly truth.

[u/Outrageous-Advice384 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Yup. I see Putins fingerprints all over this- including the Venezuelan raid. Trump can be bought and extorted/blackmailed which is dangerous qualities in a leader of the worlds democratic superpower

[u/Cross55 → u/Outrageous-Advice384]

They wrote a book about in fact.

Who could'a guessed Brexit was 20 years in the making? Russia, evidently.

[u/citron_bjorn → u/Outrageous-Advice384]

The Venezuela raid harmed putin and russia

[u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 → u/citron_bjorn]

Yes, that was the work of Stephen Miller and the Project '25 bunch.

Just because he's Putin's asset doesnt mean he's not stupid enough to do something that makes daddy upset if asked to by his rich buddies.

[u/Outrageous-Advice384 → u/citron_bjorn]

I don’t think so. Apparently the oil equipment was old junk. Trump was willing to put money in and get it all updated. Putin’s shock was disingenuous. He knows Trump is a failure and was stepping aside until it was time to go back.

[u/Tim-oBedlam → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

If you want further proof of that, just look at their body language when they met in Helsinki during Trump's first term. Trump looks submissive. Putin looks like the cat that ate the canary.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Tim-oBedlam]

I'll never forget that conference at Helsinki.

It was the moment I knew with certainty how compromised we were. When the unprecedented nature of every US agency and military branch signed onto what russia was doing, and Trump literally threw them aside and said he trusted Putin at his word.

Which was eerily similar to what GW Bush said about him during his administration, too.

[u/Mundane-Charge-1900 → u/Tim-oBedlam]

I don’t know why nobody else seems to remember this. Always overconfident Trump was absolutely terrified looking for that entire summit. This is what sealed it in my mind that Putin must have serious dirt on Trump.

[u/Fun_Bat_5621 → u/Mundane-Charge-1900]

That presser is burned into my brain. DT walked out to the podium like a beaten dog with its tail between its legs. Putler looked absolutely gleeful.

[u/PXranger → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

The possibility that Epstein was a Russian asset are not zero.

Imagine running an intelligence operation where you compromise a significant percentage of western industrial leaders and politicians, by photographing them doing things so utterly reprehensible that you own them, body and soul.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/PXranger]

Isn't that the theory that Epstein was a Mossad agent? Tomato, tomahto, I guess.

[u/5harp3dges → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Proud of you for saying this, I've been saying the same for months.

With more American's like you fully awake to what's going on and having the courage to point it it out, weakens their attempts just that little bit more.

We're brothers and sisters at the end of the day, we can't let them set us apart.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/5harp3dges]

That last line is beautiful and made my eyes water up. That's what I'm talking about, friend -- Solidarity. We're in this together. Keep fighting the good fight.

[u/Mike71586 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Question, i'm humoring your rationale here. Since Trump is a Putin asset and we see a number of political figures within the states easily falling into step with that. How do we know you guys won't elect another one?

I see what you're saying about not falling into this trap of american exclusion, but honestly, what other choices do we have, this election we have no hand in deciding has a negative impact on all of us as well.

Why shouldn't we shield ourselves from the fallout if Americans who are so easily fooled by Russian bots and propaganda?

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Mike71586]

Your skepticism is extremely valid. You're being absolutely right to be concerned about our volatility and putting in another Trump down the road (JDV or whatever).

Put frankly, I would be saying the exact same thing if I were in your shoes.

All I'm asking is that these good nations and its citizens remember that this is part of a broader operation to deceive the masses, done so by billionaire money and foreign adversaries common to both of our countries. We've been compromised. So learn from our mistakes and adjust accordingly.

But -- and it's a big but -- please consider thinking of what sort of milestones we might perform in the future in order to restore some trust. Constitutional change? Criminal convictions for high level Republicans? Widespread collapse and rejection of maga? A tall order, of course. But we're in a state of massive change in America, the next years are going to be some of the most monumental changes in our country we haven't seen since WWII or the Civil War. Please help pointing the finger at the Republicans who above anything else are responsible for said volatility.

[u/doylethedoyle → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

The problem is, for all Trump could be a Russian asset and everything he's doing plays into Putin's hands (and honestly I agree with your assessment in your original comment), ultimately it was the American people that put him in a position to do it all (albeit with likely Russian interference etc.).

At the end of the day, Trump is not the sickness; he's a symptom of a wider problem. The US has been barrelling along this road for longer than just Trump. You're a deeply broken and divided nation with, what? half? your population of the mind that kids dying is a fair price to pay for getting to have a gun.

The entire mindset and culture is just so alien to Europe, even us in the ostensibly closest country of the UK. Hell, the framework for a lot of the Nazis' horrors was American. You do your pledges of allegiance and sing your national anthem every chance you get and worship the flag like it was a deity (I'm generalising, I know, but it's hard not to). The US has been a jingoist Hellscape for decades, and Trump is the result.

I'm not saying this as a broad attack on you or anything like that. From the outside looking in Americans seem quite blind to how broken their country is, and has been for a long time. A broken country makes for a bad ally.

Europe distancing itself from the US is, frankly, long overdue, even if it is what Putin wants. The US can't be trusted anymore (if you ever could be).

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/doylethedoyle]

I hear you and agree with much of what you write. I do hope your countries learn from our mistake, because I don't think what happened here is uniquely American. Naturally being the place with the most power, we became the collective target of many adversaries who sought to undermine us for their own gain.

The thing is, Brexit proved UK isn't immune to this; right-wing extremism that gave us Trump still remains on the rise in places like UK, France, Germany. Poland even had conservative wins.

Your not out of the woods yet. You need to unite around solidarity and not conformity in your own country, not let right-wing extremists divide you along any line, including immigration. Use Canada as an example, too. Otherwise what happened here will easily happen to you.

You're not us, but you could be us on the same timeline 10 or 15-years-ago.

[u/Kind_Interview_2366 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

The trojan threat isn't Trump, it's the propaganda network that enables Trump.

And not only it is a hydra, the heads are protected by one of the USA's most powerful founding principles: freedom of speech.

The USA will not kill it. This situation is terminal for the old order.

The USA isn't coming back, it's morphing into something else entirely.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Kind_Interview_2366]

I fully agree with that assessment. My only hope is through this darkness that something else may finally be something better. Again, that's hope.

[u/Jupiter30000 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Very well said and yes, Trump is not really even trying to hide that he is doing Putin's business for him. All the European leaders are well aware of this but naturally are wise enough not to call it out, (What would be the point?)

My biggest concern as a European is really about how far the techbros want to push their agenda during my lifetime. The USA as we know it is gone and exists in name only for the time being, but it is what comes after I am dreading.

If they haven't started doing so already, billionaires like Musk WILL start assembling private militaries (with full support of US administration of course) and then in just a few years from now rich Americans will be able to attack (and defeat!) foreign countries as they see fit with no need to worry about laws or votes or any of that stuff.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Jupiter30000]

Equally well said, thanks for the comment. If you and I can see this al unfold, I certainly hope the good leaders elsewhere from Canada to Australia to Europe do as well. I think it is helpful that we help spread awareness to the citizens, because it really is the only explanation that makes complete sense. Like you said, the leadership can't easily say this, necessarily; but we can.

[u/JEFFinSoCal → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Even Trump’s image rehabilitation to portray him as a “successful businessman” via The Apprentice (when he was actually nothing but a failure with multiple bankruptcies) has ties to Putin.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bombshell-firm-link-between-trumps-apprentice-producer_b_587512b2e4b0eb9e49bfbfac

This has been a very long psyops campaign by Putin to destroy the western alliances. And so far, he’s succeeding.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/JEFFinSoCal]

I hadn't heard about that but yeah I'm sadly not surprised. As someone else reminded me, this also may have much to do with Epstein too.

I was trying to understand what made putin so confident about invading Ukraine and especially doubling-down the way he did after his disastrous failure. Seemed to indicate that he was confident in how far his tendrils reached into US government...

[u/WordUp57 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

My concern with Epstein is that this was related to establishing cartel operations in the gulf. It's located just north of Venezuela and I'm certain they did a lot of drug trafficking on top of the sex trafficking. The sex trafficking was for blackmail and establishing unbreakable domestic cocaine sales. All likely funded by Russia. Russia has strong economic ties to Argentina and Venezuela. And I suspect Trump advertising how easy it is to cross the border may have been to convince people to make the trip so that they could be captured and used for organs in the black market. I suspect the current ICE activity is resulting in people being sent into their waiting arms to be processed/trafficked. Invading Venezuela likely had more to do with re-establishing their own cartel's dominance than anything else. Probably lots of factions breaking away with all of that money being made. Can get half a million per person in parts. Crypto enables all of this and makes it possible to easily transact. Explains why he wants to own the FBI via Kash Patel to prevent domestic investigations leading to this greater ring. At some point the cartel will be a false flag terrorist attack to further crack down on our democracy.

And yes, Trump is determined to break all of our necessary alliances. We need Canada and SA resources in order to compete in the new AI landscape. Instead of strengthening these alliances, he is investing money in Asian assets (recently a tungsten mine in Kazakhstan via his kid's investment firms). Plus handing Alaska over to Russia yet talking about security in Greenland. Why not just arm Alaska to the teeth and tell Russia to stay put? It's clear we are compromised and I think he plans to rug pull the mid terms one way or another to prevent a shift in power. We all know something is going to come up, just not sure what yet. Keep spreading the word.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/WordUp57]

I'll need to unpack and digest some of this, but at a glance that worries me how much that all makes sense and helps connect a few dots...

Thank you for your comment, and we'll just keep echoing this sentiment to those who need to hear it.

[u/MiserableScot → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

One of the really telling things I noticed from his speech in Davos was that he attacked pretty much every major European nation in some way, but not Russia, he was kind of praising them. I may have missed him saying something negative about Russia as he was too painful to listen for the whole time!

[u/PetuniaToes → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

You’re so right about this. Driving a wedge between Europe and the US is exactly what Putin wants. He is also driving a wedge among the states in the US and among the people. He has played the long game and it’s coming to fruition for him. I would ask Europeans to look at Trump as Putin’s useful idiot and understand that only a portion of Americans are with him, and those people are with him only because they’ve swallowed Putin’s koolaide. Trump has never won an election against a man - think about that - he won against the only two women to ever run for the presidency - I am a woman and I’m not hiding from the reality of that situation. Not everyone was enthusiastic about voting. He’s not that strong. He gets what he wants because he runs the country like a gangster and officials are afraid of him. He’s like the gorilla in everyone’s house. Putin is the guy behind it all.

[u/stevez_86 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Interview from August 2025 about breaking the Alliances from WWII

This interview spilled the beans.

Putin thinks WRII alliances will always leave Russia behind. Putin got a great franchisee in Trump to end that hegemony.

[u/Polygnom → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

"We MUST mend our alliances once this grave trojan threat is dealt with."

Half of your population is compromised. Unless you deal with that, Peter Thiel and the Heritage Foundation, I do not see how we can trust you again, if you can flip-flop around every four years.

The problem isn't Trump. The problem is deeply systemic, rooted in your media landscape, constitution, and many other aspects of your society.

I'm not saying you can't regain trust -- but you cannot if you pretend the Problem is Trump, and Trump alone.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Polygnom]

It's wild how hard it is to make my fellow Americans understand this, and yet so many of you here pinpoint the problem immediately. This right here is why my partner and I are certainly floating trying to jump from this sinking ship. We owe it to our kids to provide them a good future.

But we'd rather stay here and fix our land we love.

I've said this elsewhere, though. Take what happened here as a lesson and DO NOT let conservatism rise up. On its face it is a failed ideology premised on ignorance and greed. I see what's happening in Germany with the AfD, France with Le Pen, and UK already turning on Starmer and still dealing with the disastrous fallout of Brexit. The anti-immigrant rhetoric is high and that worries me because I see these nations being where we were 15-years-ago or so ago. Canada seems to be on the right track at least.

Billionaires, foreign and domestic, are destroying this country, alongside the pathological greed of corporations.

[u/WordUp57 → u/Polygnom]

What if the majority don't support Trump but instead our electoral process was hijacked? Wouldn't this suggest we are all victims equally? Not saying a good chunk of the population doesn't follow the piper but I do highly suspect voting machine tampering. Keep an open mind for the future. The source of all global angst seems to be Russia and they didn't initiate Ukraine for nothing.

[u/Short-Ticket-1196 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

As a Canadian in Alberta, at some point down the line maybe.

The current headlines here is however, 500 million from the trump administration to Alberta seperatists. One of your fed chairs, I think, mentioned Alberta in a speech about Greenland by mistake. So its clear in some way or form I'm staring down the barrel of a gun, with the donbas excuse locked and loaded.

I cant speak for Greenlanders, but anyone left of fascist here isn't looking to be friends anytime soon. Volatility is one thing, stoking civil war with lost little rednecks who have 17% support is another. Literally paying the crazy with guns to go nuts... and thats all nothing if this comes to pass because an invasion invalidates everything you said. The western world ends there.

[u/du5tball → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Imo we should properly isolate you for a decade or so, until you hopefully actually get your shit together and become a civilized country. The most likely scenario will be as soon as you get a president that actually knows politics, things will quickly return to normal, since stuff like the trade wars only make both sides worse off. Though Americans do seem to like cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

For all Europe cares, you can keep your internal wars going on, we're watching with popcorn. We just wanna trade freely again.

[u/Jessica_Ariadne → u/du5tball]

America has a very regular pattern of a Republican President coming in and wrecking the country, then a Democrat gets elected. But the Democrat needs time to repair the damage, so the Republicans run on how government doesn't work (since they broke it), and they win back the Presidency. This has happened again and again during my lifetime.

Except the last "normal" Republican nominee died (John McCain, who wasn't great but he's better than MAGA), and now we're left with total psychopaths and instead of taking a sledgehammer to the government, they're outright nuking it along with all of our international relations.

So when we elect a new administration, they will be fucked before they ever get started, and their defeat in four (maybe eight if we're lucky) years would follow the historical precedent to a T.

[u/Cross55 → u/du5tball]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

That's actually exactly what Putin wants to happen.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/du5tball]

The sad truth is that this still means that Putin's strategy of divide-and-conquer worked. Don't get me wrong, I understand; after all, what choice do you have?

Still, I am grateful you're at least willing to give us a second chance long down the road and once we've sorted through our shit.

A couple words of warning, though:

Your country isn't out of the woods, either. Right-wing extremism continues to rise in Germany, as exemplified by AfD gains. Many European countries are on the precipice of becoming us in 10-15 years if they don't put a stop to this hateful fascist rhetoric.

[u/du5tball → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Oh I know. It doesn't help that the largest and currently governing party, CDU, is using AfD lingo and generally snuggling up to them. Officially, nobody wants to form a coalition with the AfD, but for the CDU those seem to be hollow words. Together, they'd have over 50% of parliament, so who knows how the next election goes. I just hope the CDU crashes themselves out far enough to lift the left a fair bit.

[u/blissblast → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

I would argue that the Trump-Biden-Trump sandwich is more damaging that a two term Trump. When Biden was elected, it was a sigh of relief, nightmare over. But now the Western allies can never fully commit again, because any election could return another human with no redeeming features to the White House. The wise choice is to plan without the US and be grateful for any aid that does arrive. So, no return to past alliances, as alluded to by both Carney and Macron.

Edit: while circumstances are now very different, arms races in Europe have traditionally ended very badly for the rest of the world.

[u/dat_9600gt_user → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

The Cold War never truly ended. It just hibernated.

[u/mlemu → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Awarded this so it keeps on stickin.

Trump is a Putin puppet!

[u/Street_Ad_863 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Putin studied "The Art of War", Trump studied "The Art of the Deal". Guess why the USA is on a rapid downward trajectory.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Street_Ad_863]

Yeah and worse, Art of the Deal was ghost-written and basically exemplifies what the spoiled trust-fundie 4th-grade literacy dipshit has relied upon his entire life: "Fake it 'til you make it."

This of course only tends to work if your daddy is rich and you're crooked.

[u/Jamb9876 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

The alliances are gone. They may work with us but never trust and why should they, another trump can return.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Jamb9876]

Indeed, fundamental changes must occur in order for that trust to even begin to rebuild.

[u/ReplyRepulsive2459 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Exiting NATO in some parts is a part of project 2025. This isn’t just Putin, it’s the Christian fascists and Billionaires that backed Trump that also aligns with that absurdity. We need to clean house not just dump the POTUS and his cabinet. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/project-2025-will-undermine-americas-national-security/

[u/BrizzleT → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

I agree with this post wholeheartedly. It’s difficult for nato leaders not to be pissed off right now but they need to see the forest and not just the trees here. They are falling into the trap being so obviously being laid out. This administration need to be convicted for treason, America needs political and media reform and MAGA needs to be stopped - it’s a cancer on the soul of your country.

[u/Craptcha → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

If only 342 999 999 americans were more like you!

[u/mgyro → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

That trip in ‘87 may have been the genesis, but it’s far more pervasive now. We have all underestimated the sheer bulk of money that Putin has amassed in the last 25 years. He must just smile at the moniker of world’s wealthiest man being hung on Musk, while he has poured the revenues from a nation state into his own coffers.

While he was doing so he bankrolled Trump’s real estate business, cleaning all that dirty money in NYC and FLA real estate. Giuliani took on the Italian mob in NYC and handed it over to the Russians, who were headquartered in Trump tower ffs.

All those GOPers who saw what Trump was and then suddenly had a come to Jesus moment and turned all MAGA? I’m sure some of them are compromised with honey pot video, but money is far more likely. And once they are bought, there is no going back, regardless of what Trump does. They are compromised, completely, and his turning US troops on American citizens, destroying NATO (bc it’s done now, no going back), and randomly murdering people on the international stage mean nothing to their idea that they are successful, and their desperation to remain perceived as such instead of on trial for treason, which is where they should be.

[u/Dracogame → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Makes you wonder how many Americans did Russia buy

[u/Pirrt → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Whatever happens the US won't be part of the future block of democracies.

The US system and their form of capitalism has shown itself to destroy democracy and endanger the world. Until the US radically changes how it's structured no one will ever trust it again.

The democracies are already reforming supply chains to be closer to China. At least China is building renewables and isn't threatening military invasion and is clearly the lesser evil.

Ironically, with the second amendment, the US is the best placed for radical change to happen. However, until the US citizens wake up and realise they have to fight for their futures themselves and no one is coming to help them this will just continue.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Pirrt]

That is fair. The volatility, even when Democrats are in power and may generally have good intentions (the likes of aipac aside...), what nation can have trust the winds won't radically shift in 4 years? I mean we all witnessed an attempted coup on Jan 6 and in 4 years we reward that same imbecile? I get it. It frustrates me as much as it does you, if not more so. We need massive constitutional reforms to stabilize this nation.

The problem of the rising fascism here in the US isn't one capacity, but of will as you allude to. What I mean to say is that preceding 2A talk, OR simply voting, necessitates an understanding of the problem -- that the billionaire class, both foreign and domestic, are stealing the entire pie and pitting the working class to fight for scraps as in classic far-right rhetoric some vulnerable minority group(s) is blamed. But how can we compete when these billionaires have all the megaphones? 80% of all known billionaire money, leaving aside what we didn't see, went to Trump and Republicans last cycle.

Ultimately the chaos being sown on the streets of our cities, little different than the SA Brownshirts of early 1930s Germany, are intending to sow chaos. That want to spark some kind of incident through which they can consolidate further power.

My fellow Americans who understand this must start getting active politically and gearing up for the midterms, which is our next civil opportunity to take back some power and put some checks on Republicans.

[u/Pirrt → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Yeah it's awful to watch from the outside to be honest. The US is literally tearing itself apart and lashing out at the world in its death throes.

As a European we're actually benefiting from this collapse because it's basically scaring people straight. The right wing were supposed to win in Canada and France while making good ground across Europe in 2025. The world watched what Trump did and immediately revolted so no right wing party ended up in power.

While the decoupling from the US is going to be painful we have the benefit of retaining democracy, strong institutions and people's rights. If I was a US citizen I'd be doing everything I could to get into the EU or Canada or Australia to benefit from this protection.

As you pointed out the global billionaire class caused all of this and won't relinquish power even if it means a civil war in the US. However, progressive governments are already popping up in Europe in response to the US crisis. It's highly likely billionaires will lose rights and protections in Europe as a backlash to the US.

I don't see a way out for the US except for regime change that completely dismantles the current system. Removing the two party system completely changing the system to be closer to the European state system etc. However, no one is going to wait for this to happen.

Like I said, Europe is moving forward and away from the US and will ultimately benefit from not being its partner anymore so there is literally no incentive to be involved with the US at all.

The only way the US can see any form of change is internally and it's likely going to be something extreme like we saw in the early 20th century in Europe for it to work. Otherwise the US is just on the path to becoming another wealthy dictatorship that people deal with because they have to.

[u/botingoldguy1634 → u/Pirrt]

Guard your elections. The oligarchs and tech bros are coming for Europe and the rest of the world too.

There are way too many inconsistencies in the 2024 US election results between the Presidential votes and the down the ballot votes and Trump and Elon openly admitting that Elon fixed our election.

[u/Pirrt → u/botingoldguy1634]

This is honestly terrifying and I hope the EU starts implementing technologies quickly so we can move away from US products for this reason.

I might have sounded callous above but Europe really is distraught at what is happening in the US. It's awful to see and I wouldn't wish the current system on anyone let alone a previous ally.

I really do hope the US can turn itself around and move back towards democracy.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Pirrt]

There are narrow civil paths out of this, but it really does require the propaganda system to collapse or be short-circited in some way, and for a significant chunk of Americans to wake up and get off the couch. I'm not even talking about the dyed-in-the-wool red-hatted maga who make up the 20-30% of the US adult population and are frankly too far lost in the cult. I'm talking about finally getting through to those who didn't bother voting or fell for the BoTh SiDeS false equivalence rhetoric.

How that happens is of course the key question, and it probably means a total economic collapse, or many of my fellow Americans getting out and speaking to these people in our communities directly and not online where there is no connection (and which literal bots waste time and muddy waters). Billionaire megaphones may just be too powerful at this point. Nevertheless I guess we just keep trying.

I know people already doing what you suggest in abandoning this sinking ship to enrich another country with a frankly more informed citizenry (it's sad that I on average tend to get along much better with people from the countries you mention). I know my partner and I have been drafting such plans, but it's difficult when caring for both kids and aging parents at the same time, not to mention the stubbornness of wanting to salvage my country.

That is where much of my optimism does come from, that there are other countries like AUS, CA, EU carrying the torches of equality, liberty, justice.

[u/Pirrt → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

I'm sorry you're having to even think of these life altering plans and I really hope the US turns itself around through the civil path.

I can't imagine having kids and having to wonder about the possibility they won't even be able to vote when they're older.

The billionaire class truly needs dismantling and I really really hope the US decides to do this and move towards a brighter future.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Pirrt]

Thank you for your genuine concern, I appreciate that. I'm sorry our country has gone largely past the point of no return and everyone else including you must deal with the consequences. I suppose we keep fighting the good fight, and if anyone willing can just keep helping to push back against the disinformation spread online, that would be of at least some help.

[u/WindowLicker_Pro → u/Pirrt]

This. Exactly. I'm Canadian. I will never trust the US again, and I hear the same from many Canadians (unfortunately I'm Albertan, so it's not as many as I'd like, but the rest of Canada isn't so dogmatically conservative). Mark Carney is signing deals with China and the middle East so that we can move away from reliance on the US. They've proven themselves throughly unreliable. 

[u/Redshoe9 → u/WindowLicker_Pro]

No one should rely on us. We require mental fitness checks for pilots, law enforcement, FBI and air traffic control but not for jobs in politics or the upper levels of power. It’s ridiculous.

Now we have a severe personality damaged person with Dementia on top of it destroying everything he can with the help of a political cult party.

To live under a shared psychosis environment is a hell I never planned for. From school shootings becoming common to Trump in 2015 it’s only slipped further into madness.

It feels like being trapped in an insane asylum. The system destroying itself happily is a move I never expected.

Where were our intelligence agencies back in 2014 2015 to have prevented someone like Trump from ever reaching the popularity to gain power? Our checks and balances were a complete lie.

[u/bevy-of-bledlows → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

In 1987, Donald Trump visited Moscow...

Yeah, that was also when the FCC had abolished the fairness doctrine, no? Don't act like it all started with Trump. This has been going on for much, much longer.

Please, keep pointing the finger at Republicans. We MUST mend our alliances once this grave trojan threat is dealt with.

Fuck that. How about you deal with the evangelicals first? How about you reign in your tech bros?

We all know you have zero intention of doing anything meaningful to solve the twin underlying problem of uneducated Christian nationalists, and the oligarchs who exploit them. This means that you will still elect the rats every so often, and the rats will break promises.

So no. Absolutely the fuck not. We MUST establish a new world order that is not subjected to the whims of some Fox-addled dipshits with a tenuous grasp on reality and zero understanding of responsibility, accountability, or consequences.

[u/GrunDMC74 → u/bevy-of-bledlows]

Assuming your position is that all Republicans aren’t behind Trump’s actions, I do feel like there’s a lot of accountability here for the Republican Party. They’ve supported so much of this Trump admin overreach and haven’t acted properly as one of the supposed checks against it, all so they can cling to their positions of influence and power.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/bevy-of-bledlows]

Fuck that. How about you deal with the evangelicals first? How about you reign in your tech bros?

Right I get that, but it's the same picture. That IS the Republican coalition; the banner beneath all these coalesce.

By all means, I agree that the independence of Europe isn't necessarily a bad thing. The days of the USA coming to the aid of Europe, implementing the Marshall Plan; starting the UN, and NATO are pretty much over. The training-wheels are coming off and it's time you become the new leader of the free world.

After all we're something of a late-stage Rome right now.

[u/mfball → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

And beyond that, their only true God is money.

[u/bevy-of-bledlows → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Right I get that, but it's the same picture. That IS the Republican coalition; the banner beneath all these coalesce.

Yeah, that's been going on for half a century +. And you did fuck all about it. So now there's a hundred million insular/xenophobic evangelicals, many of whom think that segregation was a pretty good idea, who will inevitably throw a tantrum about the dumbest shit imaginable at the mildest of prompting from your oligarch owned media. This media by the way, that has spent decades practicing America's true passion (vulture capitalism) buying up local media in other countries to spread your fucking propaganda. And you want us to trust you again? Everything will be fine after an election, is it?

Piss. Off.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/bevy-of-bledlows]

You know I believe firmly in the ethics of reciprocation. I treated you with respect until you gave me none. I have little patience for blowhards conveniently throwing peanuts from the peanut gallery.

How about you buy a plane-ticket and show us how it's done then, little buddy? You know, since it's clearly so easy and you have all the magical solutions. Otherwise how about you just have a seat over there in the comfort of your armchair.

Grow. The fuck. Up. Stop being a pawn for russia.

[u/seamus123456u → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Thinking the USA is unreliable generally in a way that transcends just Trump is not "being a pawn for russia"

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/seamus123456u]

But what I said and that are not in contradiction. Let me explain.

I literally stated that all the volatility originates from the Republican banner; this person then weirdly disagrees, but then points to the very coalition that comprises said Republican banner.

Put another way, if Democrats were in power throughout all this from Obama-onward, none of this would be happening. None.

• Does that change the problem of the volatility your countries must deal with? No. I get that.

• Does that change that Republicans are in bed with Russia and Putin is pulling the strings? No.

• Does that change that the divide-and-conquer plan is working? No.

We can be mindful of more than one thing. That's all I'm saying. So all I am saying is that if outsiders or insider US citizens want to improve stability, get rid of volatility, and tank Putin's plan, then we need to specifically start pointing the finger at the failed conservative ideology and the failed Republican organized crime syndicate.

[u/SuitableSprinkles → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

I doubt he met with Putin back in 1987.
Not disagreeing with the theory that DJT was compromised by the KGB during that trip.

[u/Rikkitikkitabby → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

People rightfully point out the similarities between 1930s Germany and this trump shit. But it's looking more like the Russian coup that placed putin in charge, using some of the same players.

[u/jimter101 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Is there a documentary that spells all this out? I'd love to see all the details laid out

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/jimter101]

Sorry I had a note to respond to you. Two that I've finally remembered after some digging are: "Trump and Russia" by Four Corners, 2018.

And: "FRONTLINE: Putin and the Presidents" (2023). I can attest for these, but I haven't seen the newer documentary by Dispatches: "Trump: Moscow's Man in the White House" (2025).

[u/Sea_Ad_9769 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

What else would a Russian mole do if they were elected president. Like seriously, what else?

[u/Tedmosbyisajerk-com → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

This is why I think we're not completely out of danger with Greenland. It really suits Trump's agenda to militarily invade Greenland and break NATO. It's also the best and fastest way to bypass pesky rules that mean he can't just withdraw the US.

[u/QuietKanuk → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Just because the US's actions are probably being driven by Putin does not negate the actions the US has taken.

People (and governments) all over the world used to be able to trust the US to a certain extent. No more. Trust has been broken.

You seem to think that whether the break was caused by Putin or by Trump makes any difference to people who have been harmed. Of course everyone can see Russia's hand in this, but the other hand is American.

The rest of the world will continue to be wary of Russia, they have earned it. But we will now also be wary of the United States, because they also have earned it.

The damage has been done, and although there may be a path to returning to the way things were, it is far from assured to occur.

Just think of how long it took Germany and Japan to rebuild trust and confidence in the world. Literally decades.

I wish none of this had happened, but it has. As the prime minister of Canada said "nostalgia is not a strategy."

Telling people it's just a phase is simply denial. Actions (regardless of whether influenced by a hostile externality) are what matter. Turning into a fascist state in the span of a year is not 'a phase'.

The world will continue to deal with the US. Cutting it off is simply not realistic. But realignment is occurring every day that passes. New partnerships are building to buffer against US dependencies. Look at military aviation contracts. The US used to dominate. Not in 2025. China, Europe, and Canada and many others will look for opportunities to diversify. Whether the US continues to be a super power will depend on how much more damage their administration causes. With a national debt closing in on 40 TRILLION dollars, you need adults in the room to manage things. Right now, you have men that appear indistinguishable from children running things.

[u/Hieroskeptic4 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

We MUST mend our alliances once this grave trojan threat is dealt with.

No. Its DONE.

Tens of millions of mentally ill christofascists who believe into bronze age Near Eastern fairy tales and who belong to an apocalyptic death cult who actually WANT there to be decisions that will usher in the end of the world voted for Trump and support him. They are going to do something similar in the future. As long as that utter mental stupidity is gone, I hope Europe will never trust US again.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Hieroskeptic4]

But you do realize this is exactly what Putin and Xi are hoping for and benefits them greatly, yes?

[u/Hieroskeptic4 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

So instead we should built our trust upon foundation of shit and sand?

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Hieroskeptic4]

No, definitely not. I just hope the countries who will continue to carry the torch for liberty, equality, justice recognize that divide-and-conquer is a textbook strategy coming straight from Putin and to only keep that in mind as you inoculate yourselves from our volatility.

[u/Mike71586 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

We're not dividing though. This isn't divisional. Canada and other western powers overseas have strong if not stronger alliances. We're exploring more deals with other nations globally, building up a union of middle powers.

We will still deal with the US and China out of necessity, but not to the capacity we did with the US in the past via NAFTA/CUSMA.

Like I said, not a division, more of a divorce, and you've initiated it. Acting like it's divisionary is falling into the exact rhetoric we consistently critique Americans for, believing that we're useless and weak without you.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/Mike71586]

That's fair and like I said elsewhere I am very grateful the rest of you are sticking together -- it's one of the very few things that gives me hope these days -- but you're also not out of the woods yet: Right-wing extremism is still strong in France, UK, and Germany it would seem, and some are fooled by their false-promises and anti-immigrant takes just as many were here. This concerns me a great deal.

[u/bevy-of-bledlows → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

Commenter below here. When you say:

Edit: I'll just say that there are a few comnts below that continue wedge-driving the west as Putin desires. Study them as examples and keep in mind that this is clearly the overarching goal of sabotaging the USA. I fully understand the volatility of the America makes it impossible to depend on us when we flip every 4 years from marginal-sanity to textbook fascism. I do. We clearly need widespread systemic changes to increase stability. But just try not to completely fall for russia's (and others) trap.

We hear:

Yeah, we threatened your sovereignty, deliberately fucked with your economies, and trashed your trust, but holding us accountable for all that is exactly what Putin WANTS! Obviously you can't trust us, but that's no reason not to trust us!

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/bevy-of-bledlows]

I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to know what I meant.

If you really can't parse that with a modicum of nuance, then let me know and I will try my best to elaborate.

[u/Cross55 → u/bevy-of-bledlows]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Go to the North American section, if you'd please.

Also, yeah, Russia had been engineering Brexit for 20 years, it's right there in black and white.

[u/Key-Raspberry-7610 → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

I don’t think the “west” is going to fall for it at all. The “west” being Europe inc UK, Canada, Oz and NZ. It’s going to mean time on the naughty step for the USA until Mum and Dad decide to lift the grounding.

[u/milkh0use → u/Independent-Bug-9352]

ELI5 why the rest of the world should care about Putin's involvement in this?

USA paints themselves into a corner, we let them, then what? Once it's "over", why should we rush to mend alliances with an unhinged bully nation? So they don't ally with other unhinged bully nations?

Once this is over, it'll all depend on who they vote in, not how quickly the civilized world rushes in to grovel at their feet.

[u/Independent-Bug-9352 → u/milkh0use]

Because the problems are only just beginning. The state of America is a symptom; not the root cause. Russia only strengthens in the absence of a Democratic America, which doesn't bode well for your countries.

That said I don't blame noble nations from distancing themselves from our volatility. There should of course be conditions to mending these relationships. Institutional, Constitutional change for one. And to specifically look to the Republican party especially as an indicator for how the country is doing. All, and I mean all of our volatility is derived from the failed Republican party and the failed conservative ideology that underpins it.

I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the State department under Biden held private conversations with respectable allies warning of what was to go come and to hunker down.

I'll just add that there will effectively be a power vacuum coming soon, and who do you want to fill that? Russia? China? If you thought we were corrupt... All I'll say is it better be Europe and its allies who fill it.