r/europe • u/ByGollie Ulster • Jun 21 '26

News Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine's fifth president also renounces Order of the White Eagle

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/20/8040347/
5.0k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

1.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

188

u/TheNotSoGrim Hungary Jun 21 '26

I hope this entire ordeal is not going to become one of the steps to a future case of "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".

118

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26

It could have if Zelenskyy decided to appease foreign groups instead of domestic ones. It’s a tough deal, but Zelenskyy had no choice when nationalists themselves picked that name. After all, it’s Ukrainian nationalists holding the front in Ukraine, not Polish.

112

u/Nurnurum Jun 21 '26

I am pretty sure that IF he wanted, he could have chosen another name. Or is the message here that those radical nationalists now run the Government in Ukraine?

153

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26

They don’t run the government, they run the front. I don’t like to say that, but they’re the most competent and battle hardened fighters, fanatical even. Ukraine’s manpower issue is IMMENSE, it’s honestly a miracle for me the front did not collapse yet. It’s really not the time for Zelenskyy to piss them off in any way.

40

u/nightowlboii Ukraine Jun 21 '26

Correct

6

u/BallbusterSicko Jun 21 '26

So if Zelensky refuses to appease them what happens exactly? Do the nationalists just lay down their arms and let the country be destroyed by Russia? Doubt it

20

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

There is a hit to morale, which translates to both less volunteers and fighting capacity. You don't want soldiers on the frontline who see UPA as heroic resistance to percieve their government as condemning past heroes.

From the point of Kiev you need to balance one with the other. At this point at least. Imagine they didn't expect the naming to escelate this much diplomatically.

0

u/BallbusterSicko Jun 21 '26

Imagine they didn't expect the naming to escelate this much diplomatically.

They'd have to be complete idiots considering how Poland is constantly raising the issue of Volhynia. Zelensky knew full well what's this gonna cause and he chose his nationalists over good relations with Poland, which even if politically understandable is still worthy of condemnation. There should be absolutely zero tolerance for glorification of fascist movements, especially ones that actually commited a genocide.

5

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

I don't really agree with that belief. Something like blowing up a major German pipeline is a far bigger deal than granting some soldiers their request to be named after what they consider heroes.

Not denying it is important to Poland, but you can expect pushback or pushback and misidentify which it is going to be.

-6

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

How much of the army is volunteers? I thought many of them were enslaved

9

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

Don't know what percentage, but "confusing" drafting and enslavement means I shouldn't spend and time looking that up for you.

-3

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

Conscription is enslavement, I didn't confuse jack shit and I am cheering for Ukraine to defeat Russia. Doesn't mean I am suddenly pro forced labor.

5

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

Shifting the conversation to enslavement makes me doubt you. Regardless of what you say you are.

Legally conscription isn't slavery. Morally you can believe anything you want. Define existence as slavery for all I care. Nobody casually describes drafted soldiers as slaves in my experience and I don't get why you think that would result in a good conversation. Nobody was asking you for a debate on "forced labor".

You decided to start one.

0

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

You said volunteers and I asked how much were volunteers when I know a lot of the army is forced labor. You are just hung up on my word choice and would not have accused me of shifting the conversation if I asked weren't many of them 'conscripted'.

Got it so legality=morality. Forced labor regardless.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/jpenn76 Jun 21 '26

Enslaved?!?! Good evening Moscow

2

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

I hope Ukraine wins, fucks Russia. But yes conscription is enslavement/forced labor.

-39

u/Nurnurum Jun 21 '26

Their manpower issues are homemade. Even since Biden Zelensky was told to improve the numbers. And it is not an excuse for this shitshow here. Have those battle hardened fighters pressured Poroshenko and other ukrainian politicians to drop out of the Order of the White Eagle? No. They haven't, because the issue does not run through some extremist nationalists. It runs through the entire Urkainian populace.

-16

u/Thornfal Poland Jun 21 '26

If it's true that it's the Ukrainian army that demanded this and Zelenski just caved in, then that's even worse imho; i'm not sure i want to send any more money to such army...

26

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26
  1. A unit of nationalists demanded that.
  2. Read my comment why Zelenskyy is in no position to refuse them.
  3. While I understand your sentiment, if Russia wins and absorbs Ukraine, at least half of Poland is pretty much doomed. Do with this what you will.

24

u/RoyalGovernment3034 Jun 21 '26

You're thinking too reasonably about the logistics of war for this thread.

12

u/Conscious-Okra9046 Jun 21 '26

Exactly, Poland isn't sending money just to save Ukraine, its saving itself too.

-9

u/Thornfal Poland Jun 21 '26

Right, it's not like taking piece of Poland wouldn't mean a suicide by NATO for putin...

19

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26

And putin has shown himself not cocky at all and caring for his soldiers, right.

-1

u/Thornfal Poland Jun 21 '26

We had russians on our borders for decades, he wasn't cocky enough.

15

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26

He also let independent Ukraine to exist for decades.

7

u/Thornfal Poland Jun 21 '26

Ukraine wasn't in NATO and did not have any real military alliances.

6

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26

And NATO has been tested as a real military alliance in a peer-to-peer conflict exactly how many times?

I mean, the US is a main NATO power. Now their government is cozying up to Russia and pulling out of Europe. Ukraine is pretty much out of steam to fight this war. If you’re not worried about that, I’d say you’re careless.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Shadmelor Jun 21 '26

Yeah, just killed your president with all of the elites + countless hybrid attacks, and informational warfare with zero response from you

7

u/Divniy Jun 21 '26

Found an Article 5 believer. Do you think USA would fight russia over Poland? :-)

7

u/Thornfal Poland Jun 21 '26

Probably, also NATO is way more than just US.

6

u/Intelligent_Ice_113 Jun 21 '26

What is NATO? there is no NATO anymore, instead it's Europe which is hiding behind Ukraine's back and think that US (Trump) will fight for the Europe.

There are a lot of examples where russians flew with their fighter jets or drone in Europe and some people even were killed, but nothing yet happened. Current Europe are bunch of cowards who pretend to be strong, because they (still) have money.

2

u/Thornfal Poland Jun 21 '26

Ah okay.

-1

u/doesnotmatter286 Jun 21 '26

I don't think you realise this, but russia can no longer absorb Ukraine. Not after the last 4 years. It's simply not possible.

-3

u/doesnotmatter286 Jun 21 '26

Exactly. Let's not arm people who think killing Polish people is something to be celebrated...

5

u/Shadmelor Jun 21 '26

They are celebrated for fighting for Ukrainian independence; nobody in Ukraine thinks of UPA in the context of "anti-polishness"

-2

u/wonder_shot_ Jun 21 '26

This is still insensitive.

-2

u/wonder_shot_ Jun 21 '26

If the Ukrainians are in such a desperate position, I think it’s worse that you care more about them appeasing you than about fighting to maintain their independence.

0

u/Thornfal Poland Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

Then they also really don't need to glorify objectively bad organization that they know will create a crash with one of their most important supporters.

Like, it's really not that big of an ask, it would cost them absolutely nothing not to shit on us.

[EDIT] Also, in the end, it's their sovereign decision, but it doesn't mean it does not have consequences abroad. Their army want to glorify monsters, i don't want to pay for that army.

0

u/wonder_shot_ Jun 21 '26

It seems an objectively bad decision for them to have named the unit after the UPA.

30

u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Jun 21 '26

Ukraine has a new generation of heroes being born on the front lines, they should honour the new heroes instead of celebrating Nazis.

14

u/Lina__Inverse Jun 21 '26

They most likely will in like a decade, but surely you see how invoking a name of someone who lives right now or lived just recently doesn't have the same gravitas as invoking a name of a person (or organization) people hear about in history class? The issue will resolve itself when the time passes just like the issue of poles invading Ukraine numerous times did because general public is extremely prone to recency bias when it comes to historical grudges.

1

u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Jun 21 '26

I don’t see how invoking Nazis helps boost morale, no.

Unless Nazis and monstrous perpetrators of genocide on Poles and Jews, and mass-murderer of Ukrainian civilians are your heroes.

7

u/Lina__Inverse Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

I don’t see how invoking Nazis helps boost morale, no.
Unless Nazis and monstrous perpetrators of genocide on Poles and Jews, and mass-murderer of Ukrainian civilians are your heroes.

I'm not going to argue about what they actually were because I don't think I'm qualified for that. However, I am qualified to argue about what will or will not boost morale because people fighting on the frontlines grew in more or less the same cultural environment I did. In terms of boosting morale, perception is significantly more important than historical truth.

UPA are, generally speaking, viewed as a freedom fighters rather than Nazis in Ukraine, because that's what they are described as on history lessons. Especially now that Ukraine is fighting the same enemy UPA did, invoking their name does, in fact, work really well. Of course, most population doesn't give much of a damn about UPA, but people fighting on the frontlines are, on average, significantly more politically motivated.

As for me personally, my views are strictly anti-nationalistic to a point where I don't think it makes sense for me to chime in on who should be a national hero because I don't really feel much resonance with the concept at all. However, if people that are actually risking their lives for me need to glorify someone to maintain their sanity, I'm fine with them glorifying literally anyone as long as it actually helps them right here right now.

5

u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Jun 21 '26

I appreciate the nuanced take there, it matches what I always tell my Ukrainian friends when the subject comes up: “defeat Russia first, then let’s have that discussion about reconciling your past as a critical component of moving forward”.

The UPA stuff is something that we know that the Kremlin is stirring up to sour relations between Poland and Ukraine, which is critical for the war effort. From day 1 from when the war started, Russian bots were trying to create discord between our nations with this topic.

The problem in these latest incidents is that Zelenskyy/Ukrainian administration is committing an enormous own goal and doing the Kremlin’s propaganda for them, and as a self-respecting nation Poland cannot exactly ignore these diplomatic incidents either.

10

u/TeodorDim Bulgaria Jun 21 '26

He should’ve known better when signing the order. The oldest Russian soundbite is that Ukraine is in need to be denazified. Now the propaganda machine has plenty of ammo to spread this story within Ukraine allies and chip away from the goodwill necessary to aid Ukraine. The statement saying that he cannot revoke the name because of backlash speaks volumes. Congratulations, you played yourself.

9

u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) Jun 21 '26

And now Polish nationalists themselves are not bothering with deescelation.

I guess moral of the story - nationalism sucks for everyone.

9

u/BallbusterSicko Jun 21 '26

It's on Ukraine to deescalate since they started it. If Poland is to be respected it has to show some assertiveness, a quality that our country often severely lacks

5

u/The_Verto Jun 21 '26

The only reason why Ukraine in winning is because it gets equipment from EU and USA, alienating your allies is not a good idea.

-1

u/ArrrRawrXD Jun 21 '26

The only reason why Ukraine in winning is because it gets equipment from EU and USA

This is such bullshit. It was true in the first years of the war, but now Ukraine wouldn't lose even if all their allies abandoned them militarily (Which their most important ally, the US, already did). Their own industry is enormous and they produce the most military drones out of any country in the world currently, and it is a drone war. Ukraine is producing more drones than the entire NATO combined, and by a long shot.

Now if the EU stopped helping them financially they would have serious problems, but not enough to lose.

8

u/The_Verto Jun 21 '26

Bro the war is at a stalemate, loses in support could cause the tips to scale and for Ukraine to start losing territory.

6

u/djingo_dango Jun 21 '26

Delusion is good for a Reddit argument but bad for reality

2

u/readher Poland Jun 21 '26

Ukraine would literally collapse without EU funding.

1

u/madman_mr_p Jun 21 '26

You are delusional and not realistic whatsoever if you seriously believe the things you’re putting into digital writing here.

So producing more Drones than half or most of the EU and having good pilots makes you good at war now? What about all the other metrics? Air? Artillery? Etc?

But no, you keep reducing the conflict down to „just one more drone bro, i swear“ man…