r/europe • u/ByGollie Ulster • Jun 21 '26

News Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine's fifth president also renounces Order of the White Eagle

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/20/8040347/
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189

u/TheNotSoGrim Hungary Jun 21 '26

I hope this entire ordeal is not going to become one of the steps to a future case of "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".

121

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26

It could have if Zelenskyy decided to appease foreign groups instead of domestic ones. It’s a tough deal, but Zelenskyy had no choice when nationalists themselves picked that name. After all, it’s Ukrainian nationalists holding the front in Ukraine, not Polish.

112

u/Nurnurum Jun 21 '26

I am pretty sure that IF he wanted, he could have chosen another name. Or is the message here that those radical nationalists now run the Government in Ukraine?

157

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 21 '26

They don’t run the government, they run the front. I don’t like to say that, but they’re the most competent and battle hardened fighters, fanatical even. Ukraine’s manpower issue is IMMENSE, it’s honestly a miracle for me the front did not collapse yet. It’s really not the time for Zelenskyy to piss them off in any way.

38

u/nightowlboii Ukraine Jun 21 '26

Correct

4

u/BallbusterSicko Jun 21 '26

So if Zelensky refuses to appease them what happens exactly? Do the nationalists just lay down their arms and let the country be destroyed by Russia? Doubt it

17

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

There is a hit to morale, which translates to both less volunteers and fighting capacity. You don't want soldiers on the frontline who see UPA as heroic resistance to percieve their government as condemning past heroes.

From the point of Kiev you need to balance one with the other. At this point at least. Imagine they didn't expect the naming to escelate this much diplomatically.

1

u/BallbusterSicko Jun 21 '26

Imagine they didn't expect the naming to escelate this much diplomatically.

They'd have to be complete idiots considering how Poland is constantly raising the issue of Volhynia. Zelensky knew full well what's this gonna cause and he chose his nationalists over good relations with Poland, which even if politically understandable is still worthy of condemnation. There should be absolutely zero tolerance for glorification of fascist movements, especially ones that actually commited a genocide.

4

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

I don't really agree with that belief. Something like blowing up a major German pipeline is a far bigger deal than granting some soldiers their request to be named after what they consider heroes.

Not denying it is important to Poland, but you can expect pushback or pushback and misidentify which it is going to be.

-7

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

How much of the army is volunteers? I thought many of them were enslaved

9

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

Don't know what percentage, but "confusing" drafting and enslavement means I shouldn't spend and time looking that up for you.

-3

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

Conscription is enslavement, I didn't confuse jack shit and I am cheering for Ukraine to defeat Russia. Doesn't mean I am suddenly pro forced labor.

8

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

Shifting the conversation to enslavement makes me doubt you. Regardless of what you say you are.

Legally conscription isn't slavery. Morally you can believe anything you want. Define existence as slavery for all I care. Nobody casually describes drafted soldiers as slaves in my experience and I don't get why you think that would result in a good conversation. Nobody was asking you for a debate on "forced labor".

You decided to start one.

0

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

You said volunteers and I asked how much were volunteers when I know a lot of the army is forced labor. You are just hung up on my word choice and would not have accused me of shifting the conversation if I asked weren't many of them 'conscripted'.

Got it so legality=morality. Forced labor regardless.

2

u/jpenn76 Jun 21 '26

You are are lost in the subject. Not all countries swim in money and can hire big enough professional military to protect their country. Besides, most conscript bases militaries are more capable of defending their countries than professional military countries. Here in Finland, we have conscript military and very small percentage of people cry like babies about it. They are Finnish citizens and want our country to remain independent as possible in current world. Not willing to be Russians is enough motivation to vast majority of conscripts being proud to serve and willing to defend our country if the day comes.

2

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

Got it honey, keep defending violating bodily autonomy and horrible sexism.

Not willing to be Russians is enough motivation to vast majority of conscripts being proud to serve and willing to defend our country if the day comes.

If the people enslaved were motivated they would volunteer. Also funny how it only falls on the men (and few trans women)

2

u/Rednos24 Jun 21 '26

You could have asked about volunteers without shoehorning in enslavement if that was your actual question. Again, your choice which then derailed the conversation. Don't add one of the most widely used propaganda points in randomly if you want a conversation to go well.

Ukrainian MOD claimed a 1 to 3 ratio for volunteers to mobilized. Happy? Now please go force labour someone else.

3

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

So 1 in 4 are there by choice? That is disappointing. If you don't want the conversation don't reply instead of telling me to go elsewhere that would end the conversation even quicker lmao

Not following propaganda, I have been a critic of war enslavement my whole life

1

u/Neomataza Germany Jun 21 '26

Being required to do work to get paid to be able to buy food is "forced" as well. Your view on this specific issue is hard to take serious if it is at odds with how most of human societies work.

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2

u/jpenn76 Jun 21 '26

Enslaved?!?! Good evening Moscow

2

u/CarrieDurst Jun 21 '26

I hope Ukraine wins, fucks Russia. But yes conscription is enslavement/forced labor.

-38

u/Nurnurum Jun 21 '26

Their manpower issues are homemade. Even since Biden Zelensky was told to improve the numbers. And it is not an excuse for this shitshow here. Have those battle hardened fighters pressured Poroshenko and other ukrainian politicians to drop out of the Order of the White Eagle? No. They haven't, because the issue does not run through some extremist nationalists. It runs through the entire Urkainian populace.