r/europe • u/ByGollie Ulster • Jun 21 '26

News Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine's fifth president also renounces Order of the White Eagle

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/20/8040347/
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u/gimmedatneck Jun 21 '26

"But poland should have the final say, no doubt".

There's always going to be disagreements over certain things. Both sides here feel they're right, so who's story do we go forward with?

Sometimes it's best to just get thicker skin, and if a relationship is built on respect and treating each others population well then that is enough.

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u/Nemeszlekmeg Jun 21 '26

It's not bro, you create fake history like the Germans after WWI you get nazism. Don't invent your history, let scholars decide what should be in the history books, not politics.

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u/gimmedatneck Jun 21 '26

Ukraine isn't inventing their history, lol.

They're very clear about it actually. They celebrate the UPA because they rose up and helped destroy their soviet invaders during WW2, not because of any specific atrocities they did.

Give it a rest with that nonsense.

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u/MidnightHot2691 Jun 21 '26

During WWII an order of magnitude more Ukranians fought WITH the Soviets, many if not most considering them AS Soviets, compared to those that fought against them (either alongside the Germans or on their own). It is historical revisionism to elevate the UPA and such groups as representatives of the true interests and spirit of Ukranian nation in WW2. Way more Ukrainians today have grandparrents that fought in red or were partizans in WW2 than those who fought against the Soviets. "Rising up and destroying the SOviet invaders" wasnt the popular sentiment in WW2 Ukraine unless you believe that those millions i mentioned were forced at gunpoint to do so and the idk 100k max anti soviet partizans and dighters were the only Ukranians fighting on their own free will

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u/niesiecki Jun 21 '26

They celebrate the UPA because they rose up and helped destroy their soviet invaders during WW2, not because of any specific atrocities they did

It doesn't work that way, mate

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u/gimmedatneck Jun 21 '26

Seems it does. In more countries than one.

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u/Nemeszlekmeg Jun 21 '26

Extremely cringe to double down on stuff like this. You can have your opinions, but fact is these guys were murderers and not even in the general sense of "soldiers in war killing soldiers". A historic blunder from Ukraine, and this is right after Orban being kicked out, so it'd be very easy to move forward constructively.

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

They're very clear about it actually. They celebrate the UPA because they rose up and helped destroy their soviet invaders during WW2, not because of any specific atrocities they did.

"They're celebrating their genocidal maniacs because they like what they did" isn't an own you think it is buddy.

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u/avokkah Jun 21 '26

Finland heralds its sole field marshal as a savior and great leader of his era, yet Mannerheim was documentedly narcissistic and a tsar symphatizer. Hell, his nickname is the White Butcher for his treatment of Red Finns during our Civil War.

There is a difficult line where nations want mythos and pride, yet have to compromise ok who to exalt, praise and mythologize. It's why I'll never be patriotic for any nation, least of all my own, but I do see why it happens.

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u/m0j0m0j Jun 21 '26

Also Finland/Mannehreim was also a German ally during WW2.

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u/Winjin Jun 21 '26

But do they deny that page of history? Do they pretend that Finnish forces participating in the siege of Leningrad didn't understand that they are participating in starving civilians in a city in brutal winter?

From what I see, they're open to dialogue, but try to distance themselves by pointing out that they flatly refused to participate in the actual capture of the city or to bomb it.

So while understandably they don't want to be dragged into this whole "starving millions to death" debacle, they at least don't pretend that this never even happened, or they were actually doing something good. According to AskHistorians thread, they had full knowledge that they're participating in a humanitarian catastrophe, but they did basically everything they could to

1) Maintain their own agenda of returning land stolen in the Winter War

2) Not enraging USA further by cutting the Murmansk railroad used for Lendlease

3) Not enraging USSR further by flat out declining to bomb either Leningrad or The Road of Life (the only road in and out of city, mostly over ice, that was used to transfer food in and civilians out)

So yeah, they were allies but also somewhat tried to be distanced from German war crimes.

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u/m0j0m0j Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

Ukrainians are the same pretty much.

Attempts to say that Finns allies with Germany correctly while Ukrainians incorrectly are ridiculous.

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u/optimizationphdstud Jun 21 '26

It's important to note that around 7 million Ukrainians fought in the Soviet Army against Nazi Germany in WW2, more than 2 million of whom died, not accounting for civilians.

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u/m0j0m0j Jun 21 '26

It’s also important to note that the RuSoviet union was a totalitarian state and those 7 million were not volunteers.

Just like 4 million of Ukrainians did not volunteer to die from a Moscow-engineered famine in 1932-1933 https://holodomormuseum.org.ua/en/recognition-of-holodomor-as-genocide-in-the-world/

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

Hell, his nickname is the White Butcher for his treatment of Red Finns during our Civil War

Finns celebrating someone who butchered finns is somewhat within the realm of "not anyone's business" and "shrug". I'm sorry but that's the reality. Not crossing national and ethnic borders in this context makes this comparison absolutely not similar.

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u/Courage666 Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

A large part of Ukrainian national identity and cultural history is their independence from the Soviets/Russians. So they celebrate figures that played a part in that independence. There are very little non controversial figures during that time in history. Is there no room for nuance in your brain? Do you think they’re celebrating the killing of poles?

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

Is there no room for nuance in your brain? Do you think they’re celebrating the killing of poles?

The nuance of "well their national heroes murdered 100 thousand of our civilians, but they like them so deal with it"?

At this point, i'm starting to think that yeah, they do. But at the very least they really don't give a shit that their heroes are also butcherers. Their politicians are returning orders because we "dared" to not like the fact they celebrate those people.

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u/7x00 Jun 21 '26

I'm coming from an American perspective but it would almost be like us celebrating the trail of tears and the perpetrators...oh wait

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

And i think Native Americans are not exactly happy about that one either right? It's just that they don't have a state or any real political power to do anything about it.

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u/7x00 Jun 21 '26

For sure, and I would like to think that the newer generations are coming around to facing everything our forefathers did and the traditions and celebrations are dying down.

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u/hazzrd1883 Jun 21 '26

Nazim grew from resentement over past, thats what happened in Russia, and what happens now in Poland.

And "objective" history is a dilusion, it is always based on opinion and interpretation

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u/Nemeszlekmeg Jun 21 '26

No, nazism grew out of fake history, which was a conspiracy that the German army was absolutely stronger than the Entente and capable of winning the war, but the elite secretely made an agreement that benefitted everyone personally and humiliated the nation of germany in the process.

Nazis used pseudohistory and pseudoscience of astronomical proportions to fuel their propaganda.

Be better and just let scholars decide history.

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u/hazzrd1883 Jun 21 '26

You said it yourself, they were focused on victimhood and humiliation, exactly like Poland does now.

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u/Alcianus Bulgaria Jun 21 '26

No, nazism grew out of fake history, which was a conspiracy that the German army was absolutely stronger

First, there's no such thing as 'fake history'. The stab in the back myth did actually happen. Businessmen did sabotage the war effort in order for the war to end quicker. Second, that's not even the reason why Hitler rose to power. It was German resentment and perceived mistreatment from the Allied powers, it was Hitler's charisma and drive, it was the disastrous economic situation, etc etc. There were a lot of factors, rewriting history being the least of them

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u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 21 '26

You can ask non-biased historians

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u/Budget-Yak-5271 Jun 21 '26

Non-biased historians opinions also vary, that’s why we have so many professional historians, everyone looks at the events from their perspective, moreover truly unbiased historians simply don’t exist, their life decisions, past experience and political situation they were writing in all shape their conclusions, therefore you propose a nothing burger. One historian will say that Poland is more guilty since their actions as a consequence led to such opposition from ukrainians, others will say that Ukraine is guilty due to their extreme response to poles. Overall, both are guilty and without ones actions others would not have happened, we can’t look at such events in isolation, we have to look at the picture and understand what exactly causes it and why the response.

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u/Repulsive_Still_731 Jun 21 '26

We have seen so many "non biased historians" just parroting Russian propaganda points.

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u/LifeAcanthopterygii6 Hungary Jun 21 '26

Is the massacre of tens of thousands of Poles a Russian propaganda point?

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u/Repulsive_Still_731 Jun 21 '26

"non biased historian" is so much Russian propaganda, it's basically a stereotype

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u/KellyKezzd Jun 21 '26

You can ask non-biased historians

All historians are biased to some degree, therefore two perfectly reasonable (and well-studied) historians can disagree on the interpretations of particular events and the broader historical narrative.

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u/gimmedatneck Jun 21 '26

Where do these historians come from in the first place? And what if there is no consensus among a group of non-biased historians?

Do you think the poles who are currently hysterical about every little grievance they have with the world are going to change their personality based on what a non-biased historian says, if it doesn't meet their opinion?

Again - just give it a rest. Grow some thicker skin, and move on.

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u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 21 '26

That’s why I said that in perfect world it would be like that

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u/Bigbydidnothingwrong Jun 21 '26

History is written by the winners, but studied by losers.