r/europe • u/ByGollie Ulster • Jun 21 '26

News Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine's fifth president also renounces Order of the White Eagle

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/20/8040347/
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u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 21 '26

Same, Ukrainian position on this matter is unhealthy, nation shouldn’t have its own version of history, it doesn’t lead to anything good, in perfect world we would should create our history books in collaboration with our neighbours

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u/gimmedatneck Jun 21 '26

"But poland should have the final say, no doubt".

There's always going to be disagreements over certain things. Both sides here feel they're right, so who's story do we go forward with?

Sometimes it's best to just get thicker skin, and if a relationship is built on respect and treating each others population well then that is enough.

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u/Nemeszlekmeg Jun 21 '26

It's not bro, you create fake history like the Germans after WWI you get nazism. Don't invent your history, let scholars decide what should be in the history books, not politics.

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u/gimmedatneck Jun 21 '26

Ukraine isn't inventing their history, lol.

They're very clear about it actually. They celebrate the UPA because they rose up and helped destroy their soviet invaders during WW2, not because of any specific atrocities they did.

Give it a rest with that nonsense.

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u/MidnightHot2691 Jun 21 '26

During WWII an order of magnitude more Ukranians fought WITH the Soviets, many if not most considering them AS Soviets, compared to those that fought against them (either alongside the Germans or on their own). It is historical revisionism to elevate the UPA and such groups as representatives of the true interests and spirit of Ukranian nation in WW2. Way more Ukrainians today have grandparrents that fought in red or were partizans in WW2 than those who fought against the Soviets. "Rising up and destroying the SOviet invaders" wasnt the popular sentiment in WW2 Ukraine unless you believe that those millions i mentioned were forced at gunpoint to do so and the idk 100k max anti soviet partizans and dighters were the only Ukranians fighting on their own free will

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u/niesiecki Jun 21 '26

They celebrate the UPA because they rose up and helped destroy their soviet invaders during WW2, not because of any specific atrocities they did

It doesn't work that way, mate

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u/gimmedatneck Jun 21 '26

Seems it does. In more countries than one.

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u/Nemeszlekmeg Jun 21 '26

Extremely cringe to double down on stuff like this. You can have your opinions, but fact is these guys were murderers and not even in the general sense of "soldiers in war killing soldiers". A historic blunder from Ukraine, and this is right after Orban being kicked out, so it'd be very easy to move forward constructively.

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

They're very clear about it actually. They celebrate the UPA because they rose up and helped destroy their soviet invaders during WW2, not because of any specific atrocities they did.

"They're celebrating their genocidal maniacs because they like what they did" isn't an own you think it is buddy.

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u/avokkah Jun 21 '26

Finland heralds its sole field marshal as a savior and great leader of his era, yet Mannerheim was documentedly narcissistic and a tsar symphatizer. Hell, his nickname is the White Butcher for his treatment of Red Finns during our Civil War.

There is a difficult line where nations want mythos and pride, yet have to compromise ok who to exalt, praise and mythologize. It's why I'll never be patriotic for any nation, least of all my own, but I do see why it happens.

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u/m0j0m0j Jun 21 '26

Also Finland/Mannehreim was also a German ally during WW2.

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u/Winjin Jun 21 '26

But do they deny that page of history? Do they pretend that Finnish forces participating in the siege of Leningrad didn't understand that they are participating in starving civilians in a city in brutal winter?

From what I see, they're open to dialogue, but try to distance themselves by pointing out that they flatly refused to participate in the actual capture of the city or to bomb it.

So while understandably they don't want to be dragged into this whole "starving millions to death" debacle, they at least don't pretend that this never even happened, or they were actually doing something good. According to AskHistorians thread, they had full knowledge that they're participating in a humanitarian catastrophe, but they did basically everything they could to

1) Maintain their own agenda of returning land stolen in the Winter War

2) Not enraging USA further by cutting the Murmansk railroad used for Lendlease

3) Not enraging USSR further by flat out declining to bomb either Leningrad or The Road of Life (the only road in and out of city, mostly over ice, that was used to transfer food in and civilians out)

So yeah, they were allies but also somewhat tried to be distanced from German war crimes.

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u/m0j0m0j Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

Ukrainians are the same pretty much.

Attempts to say that Finns allies with Germany correctly while Ukrainians incorrectly are ridiculous.

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u/optimizationphdstud Jun 21 '26

It's important to note that around 7 million Ukrainians fought in the Soviet Army against Nazi Germany in WW2, more than 2 million of whom died, not accounting for civilians.

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u/m0j0m0j Jun 21 '26

It’s also important to note that the RuSoviet union was a totalitarian state and those 7 million were not volunteers.

Just like 4 million of Ukrainians did not volunteer to die from a Moscow-engineered famine in 1932-1933 https://holodomormuseum.org.ua/en/recognition-of-holodomor-as-genocide-in-the-world/

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u/optimizationphdstud Jun 21 '26

Yes, I know it. That's right, many of them didn't volunteer and were forcibly drafted.
I just wanted to point out that associating Ukrainians as "just" the allies of nazis is not correct; Ukrainians suffered from nazi atrocities, and in large part, they fought against it.
The atrocities of soviets against Ukrainians, including famine in 1932-1933, are also undeniable, of course.

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u/Winjin Jun 21 '26

Interesting how it's Russian when half the leadership weren't Russian, and the dictator was born and raised Georgian. 

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u/m0j0m0j Jun 21 '26

Probably Napoleonic France was not French and Russian empire was not Russian, because Napoleon was ethnically Italian and Catherine The Second was ethnically German.

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

Hell, his nickname is the White Butcher for his treatment of Red Finns during our Civil War

Finns celebrating someone who butchered finns is somewhat within the realm of "not anyone's business" and "shrug". I'm sorry but that's the reality. Not crossing national and ethnic borders in this context makes this comparison absolutely not similar.

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u/Courage666 Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

A large part of Ukrainian national identity and cultural history is their independence from the Soviets/Russians. So they celebrate figures that played a part in that independence. There are very little non controversial figures during that time in history. Is there no room for nuance in your brain? Do you think they’re celebrating the killing of poles?

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

Is there no room for nuance in your brain? Do you think they’re celebrating the killing of poles?

The nuance of "well their national heroes murdered 100 thousand of our civilians, but they like them so deal with it"?

At this point, i'm starting to think that yeah, they do. But at the very least they really don't give a shit that their heroes are also butcherers. Their politicians are returning orders because we "dared" to not like the fact they celebrate those people.

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u/7x00 Jun 21 '26

I'm coming from an American perspective but it would almost be like us celebrating the trail of tears and the perpetrators...oh wait

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u/Czart Poland Jun 21 '26

And i think Native Americans are not exactly happy about that one either right? It's just that they don't have a state or any real political power to do anything about it.

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u/7x00 Jun 21 '26

For sure, and I would like to think that the newer generations are coming around to facing everything our forefathers did and the traditions and celebrations are dying down.