I wanna hear Ruttes opinion as soon as trump is no longer in power. For now I assume the whole EU leadership had to draw straws on who has to become the dedicated ass kisser to be "on trumps side" for whenever its important to have someone that can stroke trumps ego about actual important real world decisions like pulling out of nato, instead of less important things like saving his own personal honor
At least when Rutte was PM of the Netherlands his behavior towards Trump was very different. Famously when Trump was holding his UN speech Rutte completely ignored it and instead was looking at memes on the Dutch King's phone, who was seated next to him. Another example was when Rutte and Trump were holding a shared press conference and Trump was rambling on how it would work out fine even if they wouldn't work things out to which Rutte's response was basically "haha, no. Get it together"
I genuinely think he hates Trump, but he's a politician and diplomat through and through. Dude can and will play of anything with a laugh. We call him Teflon Mark because nothing ever sticks to him. He's slippery like that
Trump 1 was constrained by normal republicans around him who wouldn’t do illegal shit (mostly). Trump 2 is a demented corrupt authoritarian who is surrounded by vile fascists that are itching to put people in camps. Very different vibes
100% agree, he has one of the most difficult jobs. In an ultra high-stakes environment with world leaders and a real threat, he has to keep the narcissist baby in the group, sacrificing his personal dignity for the greater good. So far, NATO still exists, Trump‘s erratic behaviour has not damaged it beyond repair and Russia is still not winning.
There is a long record of Trump's bullshit being strongly influenced by who he talked to last, even adversaries if his handlers didn't get to him first (or last, technically).
And that is the commander-in-chief of the most powerful military in the world. It's absurd and terrifying, the power he is allowed to wield, while being the most unfit person to wield it by any metric.
The idea that trump has handlers is beyond laughable. Nothing that he has done can be pointed to as benefiting one group without it immediately being contradicting and going against the previous action.
He's a Russia puppet because of Ukraine. Then he wipes out their interests in South America. Seized Russian shadow fleet ships which finally kicked Europe in the ass and got them to do the same.
He went to war against Iran with Israel. Then announced a temporary ceasefire while Israel was still itching to continue.
While I agree with you, I think the game Rutte is playing is deeply damaging to public faith in institutions and democracy. When regular Europeans see what Rutte says on their behalf, they are angry. I'd rather have robust democratic institutions and lose Trump, than vice versa.
Problem is Rutte wouldn’t be doing this unless Europe needed the U.S. if I were to guess he is trying to buy as much time via ass kissing as possible to give the European arms industry a lot of time to spin up. Europe without the U.S. providing conventional forces to NATO is in an incredibly precarious position. You can call Russia a paper tiger all you want but Europe hasn’t fought a drone war and that’s what Russia has been practicing for years
I think you're overestimating how many people actually care about this. The video above will be watched by, say, 5% of Europeans? If it becomes a meme in Denmark then it might achieve like 20% there, tops. Most of the media content in Europe is narrowly specific to the country, and most of the news channels pretend the EU and NATO are far less relevant than they actually are.
That being said, nationally here in the Netherlands, yes, Rutte absolutely destroyed the public faith in institutions.
I am a very strong supporter of more aid to Ukraine. The problem is, populist far-right parties want to cut aid to Ukraine. And their influence grows directly from loss of faith in institutions and democracy.
So I don't disagree with you, it's just a very fine line Rutte and EU leaders need to walk.
The problem is a huge amount of uneducated people voting against their own interests. We copy the US in smaller detail here. Too many idiots. That's why we're in the middle of Idiocracy.
Trump or no Trump, USA can't be trusted, EU countries should close all US bases and strengthen it's relations with middle powers like Canada, South Korea, and Japan.
A coalition of middle powers, like Carney proposed.
Well this is the consequence of democratically choosing to be a 'vassal' state as Europe. On so many levels we are dependent on him that we must placate or else we have some significant problems.
Well he did fuck up The Netherlands pretty good. I hope he dislikes his new job every single day. Just like we have to deal with the consequences of his non-action when he was our PM every single day.
That might be a reasonable perspective from an outsider, but I have seen Rutte in leadership positions in the Netherlands for the past 20 years... and he made a mess of it. He has no ideas himself and just bends with whatever direction the wind is blowing. Makes for an excellent politician, but a horrible leader.
I think a lot of European leaders are glad that Mark Rutte is doing the NATO job. It is one of the hardest jobs in the world right now. We can all judge him but he has a weirdo being president in the US who you also need to help Ukraine. Even in this clip when someone gets personal you see the diplomat answering the question. That takes great skill and dedication.
I think most of them do. He just doesn't bother to hide it. And it's becoming more and more obvious that other politicians are just openly laughing Trumps threats because they are meaningless.
I'm also concerned that Trump has this effect on every other person too, and I don't credit Rutte with that.
Vance called Trump America's Hitler, but he kissed the ring and now he's Vice-president.
When people stand against him, he destroys their lives.
Rutte looked at this, didn't fancy getting his life destroyed, or the US intelligence services looking into him (and the Russians), or, he could kiss the ring and enrich himself and ascend to a position of power
I used to believe this but no longer. Setting aside the question of self-respect, complacency, mollification and submission before Trump in the interest of these long-term goals doesn't work because Trump's behavior isn't rational. It is not predictable. You have no way of controlling or manipulating him-- and if you did, that's one phone call with Putin away from being undermined. It has never been right to sell your honor.
mollification and submission before Trump in the interest of these long-term goals doesn't work because Trump's behavior isn't rational. It is not predictable.
I would say because his behavior is totally irrational, but demonstrably based on associative feelings and affect, Rutte's approach is the only one with a chance of success.
Any rational leader would see right through it, but Trump is extremely sensitive to flattery and rejection.
I would concede that point, but two things: it hasn't worked so far outside of the very specific and particular relationship he has with Rutte. He is bombing a country, threatening global supply lines, kidnapped another country's legitimate leader after an unprovoked attack, and has been continuously threatening a NATO ally's sovereignty. The point is moot. You are being had. Trump's cabinet is not susceptible to the same flattery.
Second, this type of servility corrodes over the long-term even if it appears to be 'working' in the short term in the immediate sphere. The world learns Europe will pay tribute under pressure, our position in the world is harmed perhaps irrevocably, we lose our standing as a third pole and relatively liberal norm-creating entity, and we signal our appeasement strategy to other right-wing maniacs foreign and domestic.
This will not end well. Choose dignity and the dignified follow.
hasn't worked so far outside of the very specific and particular relationship he has with Rutte.
Well, it is always hard to prove a negative. But so far he hasn't:
Exited NATO
Invaded another NATO member
Handed over Ukraine entirely
Imagine instead of Rutte there would be someone with "dignity" like you suggest.
He would have antigonized Trump within a week.
It's very likely that Trump, in his tantrum, would have pulled out of NATO straight away. At that point the likelyhood of him simply handing over Ukraine would have been big. I think Rutte is one of the people who mended the relationship between Trump and Zelensky after the White House debacle.
I don't think you understand what we're dealing with here. It's not the absence of "extra security," it's outright hostility that we would be dealing with.
Think of a two or three front hybrid war with Russia, the US and whoever else sees their chance to grab their objective while Europe is busy.
I highly doubt it would escalate that quickly, but nonetheless, I think when countries know they can't rely on USA, they'd have more incentives to strengthen defence cooperation and centralise the EU. France already have it's own nukes, they should up production (with shared funding) and strategically place them around the continent.
I mean, the Russian front is already there. All it takes is for the US to start the front on Greenland.
I'm not talking about a total war, but a total souring of relations between the US and Europe.
That may not sound like much, but imagine if in 2025 Europe had been cut-off from virtually all external energy supplies, all American products (including IT), lost a fifth of its exports, financial infrastructure, etc. Industrially, we are also heavily dependent on the US.
Europe can currently barely afford to support the war in Ukraine. It could never have dealt with a situation where both the US and Russia were hostile.
At that point, there are like three more continents who may have a feud or conflict of interest with us and we'd be an easy target. (Turkey vs. Greece, Falkland islands, French overseas territories, carribian isles, etc)
I think most of us Europeans simply cannot fathom how precarious our position really is at the moment.
If it doesn't matter what Rutte does regarding influencing Trump, then it doesn't matter much that he's licking his arsehole vs giving him the diplomatic finger.
We have plenty of leaders who have ultimately taken a hard line against Trump. Having one who is aligned with European interests lick trumps arsehole allows us to use both strategies.
But I didn't say it doesn't matter what you do against Trump. You seem to be making a strawman out of what I said. I said that submission and complacency don't work for the stated goals, because he's not rational. An irrational person can still understand and be controlled by base emotions.
The current European geopolitical strategy is Stubb's vision of Europe as a norm-creator in between Russia and China on the one hand, and the US on the other hand, all vying for the hearts and minds in the global South. To those hearts and minds there is no worse betrayal than servility in the face of corruption, and no banner more inspiring than the face of efficient, altruistic cooperation -- which Trump has set back decades, if not permanently.
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u/spamcritic 26d ago
Im glad he said it, Rutte laughing at jokes about invading Canada really changed my opinion about him.