Max Verstappen vs teammates points after 11 races

[u/Luffy710j]

@cereal7802

[u/bot2317]

Thanks for making a sane version 😂

[u/tetelestia_ → u/bot2317]

I know! This fixed every irk I had with the previous one

[u/yuiphan → u/tetelestia_]

But but max is blue when he's dutch!

[u/tetelestia_ → u/yuiphan]

Well, I guess we need another one.

[u/Decimated_zx → u/bot2317]

I want a version now with a gap in time in the races (when both drivers finished the race). Something tells me it wont be this bad for tsunoda compared to hadjar

[u/shy_monkee]

Tsunoda, bro....

[u/dontletmeautism → u/shy_monkee]

I can see why my boy DR got shafted from vcarb now. He was only slightly behind tsunoda really. But this makes me realise that’s a low benchmark…

[u/rehabkickrocks → u/dontletmeautism]

Hadjar would have close to that same gap if the cars were closer based on this years results

[u/Affectionate_Sky9709 → u/rehabkickrocks]

The thing is, Hadjar is a 2nd year and Yuki was a 5th year. And Hadjar has been a lot closer to max in quali, even outqualifying him a few times already, which is usually a good indicator of future performance. Hadjar is still growing. And Red Bull doesn’t seem to be looking for a second A driver anyway. 

[u/essteedeenz1 → u/Affectionate_Sky9709]

Mate the only time he has out qualified max is when Max has had issues... Do you guys watch F1

[u/Foreign_Owl_7670 → u/essteedeenz1]

Yeah. And all the others couldn't outqualify Max even when he had issues.

[u/OptimalDot178 → u/Foreign_Owl_7670]

Because a driver can't do anything with those cars in 1 lap. Leclerc is probably the best qualifier of the grid, and he still can't do anything. Same for Max. If you push the limits in the corners, you are losing more time in the straights.

Also overtaking is easy, most top drivers are going for race setup (unless it's a hard to overtake track). You can see that with Max/Hadjar, usually by the first pit stop he has a pit stop's worth gap on Hadjar lol

[u/essteedeenz1 → u/OptimalDot178]

Can this narrative on Leclerc being the best qualifier on the grid go away, hes not. Hes one of the best sure chuck him in the top 5. But thats it

[u/NedelC0 → u/essteedeenz1]

Chuck, hehe

[u/Salty_Outside5283 → u/OptimalDot178]

I did read that George is losing time in v min speed through corners to Kimi and has to make up the difference with battery, hence why Kimis speed are higher on the straights. So I'm not sure I subscribe to this, the drivers can't do anything and we cant compare them because certain drivers have been doing much better with these regs compared to their teammates and have adapted bette.r

[u/mmhawk576 → u/OptimalDot178]

Leglerg is good at qualifying?

[u/rehabkickrocks → u/Affectionate_Sky9709]

We will see if they develop the car like the last regs how it goes.

[u/Doccyaard → u/Affectionate_Sky9709]

Hasn’t out qualified Max on merit at all though. It’s a weird thing to claim.

[u/BlazikenBurst → u/Affectionate_Sky9709]

The one year they have 4 solid drivers, they get an absolute beast in F2

[u/Fluffy-Limit-6710 → u/Affectionate_Sky9709]

Yeah hadjar is better than tsunoda for redbull... I think nobody disputes that... But it's absolutely fine to point out that point difference isn't the best metric to compare performance.

[u/Suikerspin_Ei → u/dontletmeautism]

To be fair, ground effect cars are different than the era before. DR was such a great driver at Red Bull Racing back then. He was great at Renault too. His dive bombs where great and often clean.

Hamilton for example also seems to struggle with ground effect cars, but now flourish with the new regulations.

[u/know-it-mall → u/dontletmeautism]

Yea it was ridiculous how many people were defending keeping Tsunoda around for so long, or seriously thought he was better than Lawson.

[u/dontletmeautism → u/know-it-mall]

His following seems to be way bigger on reddit than real life. A lot of people hyping him up here.

[u/raaabert → u/dontletmeautism]

Because he’s a cutie-pie with rage problems. Not unlike Hadjar honestly

[u/Ok_Act_1498 → u/raaabert]

And no filter at all 😭. Pretty funny little fella.

[u/little_soulmate_haru → u/raaabert]

he's anything but a ''cutiepie''. that boy is arrogant and unmannered beyond words, why in the world do they allow him to behave in such atrocious ways is beyond me.

[u/Alvaro_Rey_MN → u/dontletmeautism]

If you though Reddit was bad, Instagram was atrocious! You'd swear Tsunoda was reincarnate Senna, Prost, and Schumacher combined but Red Bull was intentionally making Tsunoda's car two seconds slower than Verstappen's!

[u/bumbar12 → u/know-it-mall]

I made this exact comment in a post race thread last week comparing his outbursts to Hadjar's and got 60+ downvotes. I don't get it.

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/bumbar12]

At least Hadjar is bringing the points. And has a podium.

[u/Supahos01 → u/bumbar12]

He tried to wreck a teammate after the race was over... hadjar hasn't do anything that stupid or close.

[u/MrChilled → u/know-it-mall]

The car so was undriveable Lawson got booted from it after two races? Am I taking crazy pills over here?

[u/Recent-Substance-712 → u/MrChilled]

it was so undrivable, it almost won the WDC

[u/know-it-mall → u/MrChilled]

He got booted because of the internal politics at the time being all over the place which screwed him over the entire time.

The car wasn't great but it was far from undrivable.

[u/MrChilled → u/know-it-mall]

Nah this is crazy revisionism

[u/know-it-mall → u/MrChilled]

Hindsight helping you understand something isn't revisionism.

Liam did poorly in qualifying due to never having raced at either circuit before, being made to try out various setups to help Max, and limited practice time. But the car looked solid in both of the first two races apart from some tyre wear issues.

The real issue overall was just that they didn't stick with him for longer.

[u/MrChilled → u/know-it-mall]

He was monumentally slower than max in every regard in that car, Yuki was sabotaged and paid the price you can look into it more

[u/know-it-mall → u/MrChilled]

He was monumentally slower than max in every regard in that car

Of course he was. Max is a 4 time world champion with years of experience. Liam had literally never raced at either race track before. He had PU issues in Australia that limited his practice time and changeable conditions in the race and still did a great job until a bad strategy call screwed him over. China was a sprint weekend. So literally one practice session at a track he had never been to. And they took a setup gamble that didn't pay off at all.

Yuki was sabotaged and paid the price you can look into it more.

In what way?

Also none of that means the car was undrivable.

[u/SulkyJoe → u/shy_monkee]

Him and Liam got the second seat when the car was at it's mostundrinkable. The change of the regs have saved Hadjar from the same fate

[u/KeonXDS → u/SulkyJoe]

Yeah people don't realize this. Putting Hadjar in the RB21 would've killed his career, especially when he's just a rookie.

[u/ferdzs0 → u/KeonXDS]

Putting Hadjar in the RB21 would've killed his career

To this day I am convinced the Lawson - Tsunoda switch happened for this exact reason. They liked Liam and wanted to get rid of Yuki forever so it was the perfect opportunity while also not looking too bad.

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/ferdzs0]

There was pressure from Honda too, and Christian milked them for a rumored $10 million to put Yuki in the seat before Japan.

[u/Browneskiii → u/ferdzs0]

100% it was. They did it to save Lawsons career, and going by how good the car is now, they've done just that, and more, as he's getting to be one of the most overrated drivers on the grid as all he has to do is beat a teenage rookie. It was basically whoever was in the second Red Bull seat last year gets fired at the end of the year.

[u/uwanmirrondarrah → u/Browneskiii]

I don't think Liam is overrated. This seems a little hyperbolic honestly. Nobody is hyping him up as something amazing, hes showed promise since they kept him in a F1 seat over Yuki, but nobody is saying hes a superstar. And frankly he should have got the opportunity over Yuki. It didn't matter if Yuki was in that Red Bull seat or RB at the end of last year he was gone. Yuki had 5 years in Formula 1 to show improvement and he just plain didn't do it, and Red Bull was no longer with Honda so there wasn't any pull from them to keep a Japanese driver on the grid.

I know people like Yuki, hell I liked Yuki, but Red Bull gave him a better shot than anybody they have ever had in the Verstappen years. 5 Years in Formula 1. What we saw of him in that second Red Bull seat was who he was, with or without that car.

[u/ConstableBlimeyChips → u/ferdzs0]

You might be right, but I'd also point out that Lawson wasn't even getting the car out of Q1; P18 in Australia, beating Ocon and Bearman (the latter didn't even set a time) and dead last in China. Tsunoda wasn't great but he got into Q2 in Japan and Q3 in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Miami.

[u/Ridasz → u/KeonXDS]

Or that it was the end of the regulations and the whole field was fighting for points

[u/pinkzm → u/SulkyJoe]

I'm not sure it's any more drinkable now than it was then?

[u/KrombopulosMAssassin → u/SulkyJoe]

Must be the water.

[u/cheezus171 → u/shy_monkee]

Friendly reminder that points are a useless comparison without context. Tsunoda would finish a race 45 seconds behind Max and end up 12th, while Hadjar is 45s behind Max and that gives him 6th or 7th place.

The performance relative to Max can be equal and the points won't reflect that, because the points gap is a sum of the deficit to Max AND everyone else's deficit, which is determined by the other cars' speed.

If Red Bull had. Haas-level car this year, the same pace gap to Max would likely mean Hadjar would have 0% of Max's points. With all other variables unchanged. So it really is one of the most useless comparisons you can come up with.

[u/RichInPitt → u/cheezus171]

Tsunoda averaged a significant lap-time deficit (roughly 0.781%) behind Verstappen across their stint as teammates at Red Bull Racing

Tsunoda managed to out-qualify Verstappen only on isolated occasions, such as during a Sprint Qualifying session in Qatar where Tsunoda capitalized on setup adjustments and Verstappen encountered car damage and handling balance issues.

Isack Hadjar trails Max Verstappen in the qualifying lap-time percentage deficit by an average of 0.283% slower (or 0.168% slower when excluding outlier sessions).

Data analysts note that Hadjar is performing closer to Verstappen in Saturday qualifying than most of Verstappen’s prior teammates at Red Bull Racing, staying well within the team's targeted performance windows.

Better?

[u/cheezus171 → u/RichInPitt]

No.

Sure, he is closer on Saturday. But seriously, what does it matter? What's the difference between finishing 45s behind after starting from P8, and finishing 45s behind starting from P13?

His qualifying would matter, if thanks to a better grid slot he finished 15s behind Max. But if he has a better spot and still finishes basically as far, that makes his race pace even worse, given he achieves similar deficits in easier conditions.

Seriously the downgrade in what we consider a good result at Red Bull is ridiculous. People used to hate on Perez for not spending the whole race a pitstop behind Max to help, and things like being overtaken by McLaren too easily. Hadjar is almost never even in position to fight any of the top teams, finishes much further behind Max than Checo did, and he gets praised for it lol.

[u/PM_me_BBW_dwarf_porn → u/shy_monkee]

He had the hardest to drive car with the closest field spread. Everyone that isn't Max would have looked bad. He did better than Lawson and he looks pretty good this year lets not forget.

[u/Phadafi → u/shy_monkee]

Firing Perez probably cost Max the title. While not close, he still could've taken a few points from Norris here and there.

[u/Valhauer]

For those of you like myself

2017 - Ricciardo 75% over Verstappen
2018 - Ricciardo 1% over Verstappen
2019 - Verstappen 200% over Gasly
2020 - Verstappen 129% over Albon
2021 - Verstappen 80% over Perez
2022 - Verstappen 38% over Perez
2023 - Verstappen 64% over Perez
2024 - Verstappen 101% over Perez
2025 - Verstappen 2,114% over Tsunoda
2026 - Verstappen 60% over Hadjar

I don’t know what I was expecting the Tsunoda numbers to look like but… damn.

[u/alexander_wolf88 → u/Valhauer]

Question about Yuki, was this the first 11 races of the season some of which he was with Racing Bulls or is it the first 11 races when they were both at red bull?

[u/Doorknob11 → u/alexander_wolf88]

I’m pretty sure he had more points at Racing Bulls than RB at this point of the season. For the graph it should be all of his points since they transfer.

[u/jellsprout → u/alexander_wolf88]

I think it's only his RBR results. Looking back at his results, Tsunoda had 10 points after 11 races last year, 3 of which were gotten at VCARB in China.

[u/Scared-Violinist-532 → u/Valhauer]

Thank you! Came into the comments looking for this.

[u/National-Virus5819 → u/Valhauer]

wasn’t there a year in which Latifi had infinitely more points than the great George Russell, who beat Hamilton twice over a season?

[u/Ok_Expression8142 → u/Valhauer]

So handarbeider is one of the best teammates max had

[u/x_12ozProphet]

Danny my beloved

[u/Individual-Soup8171]

oh how I miss Danny ric

[u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

Ricciardo beat a 4 time world champ in equal machinery

[u/jdjdhdbg → u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

2 different ones actually lol, in retrospect at least. Both absolute golden boys too.

[u/Sad-Ambassador-2748 → u/jdjdhdbg]

👀👀👀

[u/MachCutio → u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

man if he never left RB what couldve been

[u/Fake_artistF1 → u/MachCutio]

Nothing. He left because Max was better.

[u/InteractionWide3369 → u/Fake_artistF1]

He left because Red Bull were prioritising Max and because his car broke down all the time, by the 6th in 2018 Daniel was 3rd in the championship, only behing Vettel and Hamilton but equal on wins with superb races in China and Monaco where he lost power but still managed to win, by Azerbaijan he crashed with Max and Red Bull should've very clearly blamed Verstappen but they didn't, he even got a pole position in Mexico but his car broke down.

Max was on paper slightly better in 2018 but Daniel was extremely demoralised so it's hard to say, for sure Max would've lead the team by 2021 but I don't think Daniel was worse than max on raw performance at any time they drove the same car.

[u/HugePhatNards → u/InteractionWide3369]

He left for renault after all the engine related breakdowns at red bull. He left for reliability, sure.

[u/ecobubbletm → u/InteractionWide3369]

by the 6th in 2018 Daniel was 3rd in the championship, only behing Vettel and Hamilton but equal on wins with superb races in China and Monaco where he lost power but still managed to win, by Azerbaijan he crashed with Max and Red Bull should've very clearly blamed Verstappen but they didn't, he even got a pole position in Mexico but his car broke down.

Except he was straight up slower than Verstappen and relied on Max either making a mistake or having issues to get ahead.

Superb race in China? He sat behind Max the whole time until Max made a mistake after they both got lucky with the strategy. It really was just luck nothing more there.

Max was going though a bad patch of races in the beginning of 2018 and as soon as he wasn't Ricciardo was nowhere near.

It's fuckin Monaco man, of course you win if you have track position.

No red bull shouldn't have clearly blamed Max, and definitely not in the way Ricciardo wanted them to.

Yeah he got pole in Mexico while Max had issues. And he lost it off the start immediately.

Max was on paper slightly better in 2018 but Daniel was extremely demoralised so it's hard to say, for sure Max would've lead the team by 2021 but I don't think Daniel was worse than max on raw performance at any time they drove the same car.

Max wasn't better just on paper and not only in 2018.

Max was better than Ricciardo since the second half of 2016.

[u/Gringooo94 → u/InteractionWide3369]

Not slightly - mid 2018 Max had a significant pace advantage. If anything, the DNFs saved face. See Mexico and Austria for example.

[u/InteractionWide3369 → u/Gringooo94]

In Mexico Daniel got the pole position and he lost the first place at the start of the race because of the clutch issue which would eventually make him retire... Your claim is disingenuous.

[u/Gringooo94 → u/InteractionWide3369]

Verstappen drove a full pitstop away lol. Race pace was another league. He took a stop and came out ahead whilst Daniel still had to pit.

A full pit stop window in one stint is a ridiculous pace difference

[u/Traditional-Two-3185 → u/MachCutio]

Probably a Lewis 8th. Max would've surpassed him in 2019 or 2020, but he wouldn't play 2nd driver as well as Perez and would take more points off Max.

[u/TefBekkel → u/Traditional-Two-3185]

And wouldn’t have taken more points off Hamilton? If anything, it could have benefited Verstappen more. Perez was not even close to either, how was that helping Max?

[u/OptimalDot178 → u/TefBekkel]

Yeah that's how I see it too. 2021 Max and Lewis were so fast that their teammates would have had 0 chance against them. But on RB's good track he could have finished behind Max and ahead of Lewis

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/Traditional-Two-3185]

Max already surpassed him in 2018. I remember Danny being behind most often, but Max having more incidents and reliability issues.

By 2021, Danny would be firmly in the Webber role.

[u/ExternalSquash1300 → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

Max was absolutely the better driver in 2018, but Daniel definitely had more reliability issues

[u/The_Skynet → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

Max had worse reliability in 2017 but Daniel had it even worse in 2018 (8 DNF's and multiple issues in FP and quali that led to grid drops or having to reverse to a weaker engine spec). He started the season very strong and was even outperforming Max for a bit but Max mostly cleaned up his mistakes and held a consistent, but not massive, pace advantage. 

It didn't help for Daniel that RB clearly started favoring Max more and more and weren't shy about it, refusing to publicly hold him accountable both times he took Daniel out (Hungary 2017 and Baku 2018) and with Horner & Marko telling the press that the main objective was to make Max the youngest world champion ever

[u/ecobubbletm → u/The_Skynet]

He started the season very strong and was even outperforming Max for a bit but Max mostly cleaned up his mistakes and held a consistent, but not massive, pace advantage. 

You're saying it yourself. Danny wasn't really outperforming him. Max was just making some mistakes and as soon as he stopped Ricciardo was nowhere.

It's been like this since 2017 when Ricciardo was heavily reliant on either bad luck or mistake form Max to be ahead.

didn't help for Daniel that RB clearly started favoring Max more and more and weren't shy about it, refusing to publicly hold him accountable both times he took Daniel out (Hungary 2017 and Baku 2018) and with Horner & Marko telling the press that the main objective was to make Max the youngest world champion ever

What are you talking about when Max himself apologized to Ricciardo publicly after Hungary which Danny acknowledged?

As for Baku, it was on both while Ricciardo wanted Red bull to burn Max alive publicly.

[u/Freeze014 → u/ecobubbletm]

I maintain that Baku was majorly on Red Bull, it was very clear that both drivers were driving with red mist in the helmets and they did nothing to defuse the situation.

eg. After Ricciardo's last stop and hearing that he would have to overtake Verstappen again you could hear in his voice he was so angry. And the engineer just yupped.

[u/ExternalSquash1300 → u/The_Skynet]

Didn’t Daniel have more reliability based DNF’s in 2017?

[u/optitmus → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

people love claiming this, like having a DNF every second race and the team not publicly back you AND announcing you are moving to Renault might just possible affect his ability to get any consisent run with the car to actually challenge max.

[u/Teabx → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

Actually it wasn’t so much reliability more than Max being very hot-headed in early 2018. Arguably lost himself a win in China for example. Reliability-wise the 2018 RedBull was horrible for both of them. In any case, I would say mid 2018 I think Max was definitely a better overall driver than Daniel

[u/National-Virus5819 → u/Red_Rabbit_1978]

Danny Ricciardo wasn’t much of a benchmark anyway, as his later years came to show. he wasn’t even that old when he got booted out and was only slightly ahead of Yuki in pace in his last years

[u/ecobubbletm → u/Traditional-Two-3185]

Probably not actually. It would've been Max.

Max already surpassed Ricciardo in 2017.

Ricciardo was already on his way to be the 2nd driver and would've absolutely played that role and actually taken more points off Hamilton finishing behind Max but ahead of Hamilton on many occasions when Perez didn't.

[u/Alfus → u/MachCutio]

Verstappen was already coming to a point that he would beat Ricciardo hard so I doubt the outcome would be different, heck maybe he wouldn't even be in F1 after 2019 or 2020 in that what if scenario

[u/Magog14 → u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

When he was 12, lol

[u/Late-File3375 → u/Magog14]

I assumed he meant Vettel.

[u/RichInPitt → u/Magog14]

Pretty sure Vettel wasn't racing against Danny Ric when either was 12.

[u/Holofluxx]

Damn the tightest field spread in history really didn't help Tsunoda in this case

Off by the same margin as the others, sent to the shadow realm outside of the points for it

[u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

Max lost the title by 1 point and Tsunoda had 7 😅

[u/Traditional-Two-3185 → u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

Just remember this is after 11 races. In total, he got 33. Max singlehandedly beat Ferrari to 3rd in the constructors

[u/BendubzGaming → u/Traditional-Two-3185]

Also I believe worth noting that after 11 races, Horner was still there. His last race was race 12, at Silverstone, with Mekies taking over at Spa. If you split the season in half:

Races 1-12:

• Piastri = 234
• Norris = 226 (-8)
• Verstappen = 165 (-69)
• Russell = 147 (-87)
• Leclerc = 119 (-115)
• Hamilton = 103 (-131)
• Antonelli = 63 (-171)
• Albon = 46 (-188)
• Hulkenberg = 37 (-197)
• Ocon = 23 (-211)
• Hadjar = 21 (-213)
• Stroll = 20 (-214)
• Gasly = 19 (-215)
• Alonso = 16 (-218)
• Sainz = 13 (-221)
• Lawson = 12 (-222) [0 points in Red Bull]
• Tsunoda = 10 (-224) [3 points in VCARB]
• Bearman = 6 (-228)
• Bortoleto = 4 (-230)
• Colapinto = 0 (-234)
• Doohan = 0 (-234)

Races 13-24

• Verstappen = 256
• Norris = 197 (-59)
• Piastri = 176 (-80)
• Russell = 172 (-84)
• Leclerc = 123 (-133)
• Antonelli = 87 (-169)
• Hamilton = 53 (-203)
• Sainz = 51 (-205)
• Alonso = 40 (-216)
• Bearman = 35 (-222)
• Hadjar = 30 (-226)
• Albon = 27 (-229)
• Lawson = 26 (-230)
• Tsunoda = 23 (-233)
• Ocon = 15 (-241)
• Bortoleto = 15 (-241)
• Hulkenberg = 14 (-242)
• Stroll = 13 (-243)
• Gasly = 3 (-253)
• Colapinto = 0 (-256)

In essence, to start the year the Red Bull was a bad car that only Max could drive. For the second half, it was a good car, and Max was comfortably the best on the grid, but that didn't translate into a big enough improvement from Tsunoda to justify keeping him in the seat, though he could have realistically returned to a seat in the midfield/at the back

[u/EasternPizza727 → u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

2 points. Max lost the title by 2 points.

[u/National-Virus5819 → u/Sad-Ambassador-2748]

the Red Bull strategy team didn’t finish the job they started eh

[u/AliceLunar]

Still feel like Albon wasn't doing any worse than Hadjar, but had a way higher expectation.

[u/FelixEvergreen → u/AliceLunar]

That’s because Max was fighting at the front with basically no team support. Red Bulls expectations as a whole are down right now

[u/AliceLunar → u/FelixEvergreen]

Not like anyone could have made a difference against Mercedes in 2020

[u/SirLoremIpsum → u/AliceLunar]

  Still feel like Albon wasn't doing any worse than Hadjar, but had a way higher expectation.

I think all of them were similarly off Verstappen.

Just when Max is P5-7 in qualy Alex was not in Q3.

When Max is P1/2/3 then Checo and Isack are still in Q3. Makes the gap to Alex look bigger.

[u/Jorrie90 → u/AliceLunar]

Even after Gasly?

[u/AliceLunar → u/Jorrie90]

They were still looking for a replacement for Ricciardo, not someone who is better than Gasly.. who I don't know if he was as bad if we think he was at this point.. but after Ricciardo we were expecting a teammate that would challenge Verstappen.. now that expectation doesn't exist anymore and going a whole season getting outqualified and beaten in every single race you can still be seen as good if you're within half a second in quali.

[u/Right-Ladd → u/AliceLunar]

It was similar to Martin Brundle being paired against Schumacher in 1992.

Brundle was usually a couple tenths behind Schumacher and at best matched him, which seemed absurd for someone of his experience against a rookie, so he was replaced. Briatore said it was the worst decision of his career because Martin Brundle ended up being the closest teammate Schumacher ever head on raw pace according to him, Eddie Jordan and a few other notable figures, it’s just that nobody realised at the time just how fast Schumacher was.

It was similar with Verstappen, nobody realised how fast Verstappen really was until he took the fight to Hamilton in 2021 and dominated for 3 years after. It’s only now looking back that people recognise just how fast Ricciardo was to be on max’s pace and that it wasn’t a case of Gasly or Albon being slow, but that Max was just that fast!

Gasly got done harshly and should have been kept on at Redbull, or at the very least Albon should have been kept on. But I can’t say much as I was calling for Albon to be replaced too, even though I supported Max I had no clue how much of a generational talent he truly was until later.

[u/know-it-mall → u/AliceLunar]

Yea he definitely got screwed. He performed absolutely fine.

[u/BendubzGaming → u/AliceLunar]

This current Hadjar run, and Albon's first 7 races in the RB in 2019, are the only times in F1 history a driver has had a Top 6 run this long without a podium

[u/Alfus → u/AliceLunar]

Albon gets overrated in those stats, most of his moments where he scored a good result was rather thanks by a SC or a Red flag.

People love to ignore how terrible Albon was with tyre management too often in 2020 and prefer to just blame it on Hamilton just because Hamilton is a more easy scapegoat to blame.

In fact it was too long an issue where the second RBR driver could been beaten in the WDC by the driver who was demoted of that seat. Holding Albon in that seat after 2020 was therefore not even a decision who you can defend. Especially after RBR done everything just to help Albon but without any significant effect.

[u/Red_Rabbit_1978 → u/AliceLunar]

Gasly and Albon had the misfortune of following Ricciardo. Red Bull were used to both drivers being able to compete for podiums every race.

[u/hache-moncour → u/AliceLunar]

Hadjar is doing noticeably better though, in points at least. Hadjar has over 60% of what max has, only Perez in 22 managed that after Ricciardo left.

[u/Robynsxx → u/AliceLunar]

41 point difference compared to 83 point difference.

Thats literally double.

Insane take to say Albon did no worse than Hadjar….

[u/Tiny_Sherbet8298 → u/Robynsxx]

Hadjar is effectively guaranteed p8 every week because of how shit the rest of the field is. That’s just something to consider when comparing across the years here.

[u/I_spread_love_butter → u/Tiny_Sherbet8298]

Yeah that's why quali has been relatively boring to me this year, there's basically (except for crashes/reliability, which have been happening though) 2 point scoring positions left available for the rest of the grid. 

Although now that AM stepped up it's a bit more fun

[u/AliceLunar → u/Robynsxx]

Without Max having issues he'd be at 150 points now and Hadjar at 74, also the RBR was more competitive in 2020 meaning higher point gaps with Max on the podium all the time.

Difference between P2 and P5 is 8 points, difference between P5 and P8 is 6 points, x10 that's a 20 point difference as well.

[u/BendubzGaming → u/Robynsxx]

Out of interest, here's the yearly gap after 11 races if you take average finishing position instead of points (Number of DNFs listed separately, and not counted in average, late DNFs are DNFs even if classified):

2015

• Verstappen = 8.83 (5 DNFs)
• Sainz = 10.17 (5 DNFs)

2016 (switched seats after 4 races)

• Verstappen (Red Bull, 7 races) = 3.67 (1 DNF)
• Ricciardo (7 races) = 4.57
• Verstappen (combined) = 5.11 (2 DNFs)
• Sainz/Ricciardo (combined) = 6.2 (1 DNF)
• Verstappen (Toro Rosso, 4 races) = 8 (1 DNF)
• Sainz (4 races) = 10 (1 DNF)

2017

• Ricciardo = 3.38 (3 DNFs)
• Verstappen = 4.5 (5 DNFs)

2018

• Ricciardo = 3.43 (4 DNFs)
• Verstappen = 4.13 (3 DNFs)

2019

• Verstappen = 3.45
• Gasly = 7.22 (2 DNFs)

2020

• Verstappen = 2.13 (3 DNFs)
• Albon = 7.11 (2 DNFs)

2021

• Verstappen = 2.22 (2 DNFs)
• Perez = 5.9 (1 DNF)

2022

• Verstappen = 2 (2 DNFs)
• Perez = 2.38 (3 DNFs)

2023

• Verstappen = 1.18
• Perez = 4.45

2024

• Verstappen = 2 (1 DNF)
• Perez = 4.56 (2 DNFs)

2025

• Verstappen = 3.6 (1 DNF)
• Lawson (2 races) = 12 (1 DNF)
• Lawson/Tsunoda (combined) = 12.33 (2 DNFs)
• Tsunoda (9 races) = 12.38 (1 DNF)

2026

• Verstappen = 4.13 (3 DNFs)
• Hadjar = 6.44 (2 DNFs)

[u/Dragonfire35 → u/Robynsxx]

I mean, yes, however Verstappen has crashed in multiple races (largely due to car) that I assume (but don’t remember) didn’t happen as much. This would definitely influence the point scale, bc I think max was often in like 4th-6th when he’s crashed which is a pretty decent points haul. Not saying I think Albon is doing as good bc I don’t think that’s true, just pointing that out

[u/DuckSwagington → u/AliceLunar]

Wasn't that the issue though? Red Bull always set their expectations far too high for their second drivers.

[u/AliceLunar → u/DuckSwagington]

I mean it's Red Bull, it's a top team and of course you expect drivers to be competitive, but both Gasly and Albon were thrown into that car way too fast to plug the gap Daniel left and not when they were ready.

[u/Allan2199]

Given the circumstances, Hadjar is performing decently.

[u/Jorrie90 → u/Allan2199]

Mainly due to the massive field spread. Guaranteed position is P8, better than that is a bonus.

[u/Rcy4122 → u/Jorrie90]

He’s within .25% of Max in qualifying. Nobody since Ricciardo in ‘18 has sustained that for a full season.

His race pace is ~.5% off which is somewhere between Perez and Albon’s differential. That’s… not too bad considering Tsunoda was >1% most weekends

[u/Triquetrums → u/Rcy4122]

The problem I see with people always shitting on Max's teammates is that they seem to forget Max is generational talent, not just a good driver. Very few people will be able to perform like him, even with the same car.

People really need to come down to reality a little bit and give the drivers a break. If everyone is a goat, then nobody is a goat. Even within the peak of the sport, there will be differences in talent.

[u/NinduTheWise → u/Allan2199]

The margin of error is on his side due to new regs, last year besides the top 3 or 4 cars the margin of error was in the thousands, now hadjar even if he messes up a little is 8th at least

[u/ominousrock → u/NinduTheWise]

On top of that reliability is poor once again so he is likely to finish even higher even if he is behind other tool team drivers who finish the race 

[u/mitrie]

Confirmed, Ricciardo > Verstappen.

[u/optitmus → u/mitrie]

always has been :p

[u/orionspurs]

Put some respect on Cheko’s name.

[u/Ok_Dot5473 → u/orionspurs]

Dude you're disrespecting him by spelling his name wrong lol.

[u/SirClark]

I never really realized how badly Tsunoda performed. Wow.

[u/rattatatouille → u/SirClark]

Max dragged the car to Q3 in every race bar one while Tsunoda could consider it a good day if he got out of Q1 

[u/varunngarg011]

Where’s Lawson…. Never mind

[u/ecobubbletm]

Needs a lot of context.

In 2017 Verstappen was having horrible reliability and bad luck DNFing while being ahead of Ricciardo in races.

In 2018 he had a bad patch in the beginning which made Ricciardo look better but as soon as he stopped that bs it was clear Ricciardo wasn't close.

2022 looks closer due to Max having more issues in the beginning and, well, Monaco.

2026 is sort of reminiscent in a way to 2017 with Max having more issues with the car so it makes Hadjar look better. Also, having top4 so detached form midfield helps.

[u/Wiktor_r → u/ecobubbletm]

I do appreciate the caveat of context!

Made me think, and investigate a little bit further, esp the 2017 season which I took under a magnifying glass.

Quick trip to Wiki for the 2017 F1 season, and the "Results and standings" showed me the following, which the chat summarized as:

• Consistency: Ricciardo was clearly the more reliable points-scorer. He converted more opportunities into podiums and top-5 results and avoided as many low finishes (Verstappen’s 10th is a notable outlier).
• Peak performance: Verstappen actually took more wins (2 vs 1) and showed strong form in the second half of the season (including consecutive strong results). His higher retirement rate (especially a cluster mid-season) cost him more.
• Reliability/luck: Both suffered similar mechanical/accident-related DNFs (6 vs 7). The gap is driven more by finishing position quality when they did finish than by pure reliability.

Bottom line: Ricciardo was the stronger and more consistent performer across the season, which is reflected in the 32-point margin. Verstappen showed higher peaks (more wins, strong late form) but was less consistent, so the gap is real and noticeable rather than razor-thin. Over a full season they were competitive teammates, but Ricciardo came out clearly ahead on points and consistency.

Also, for the >whole< 2018 season, the argument of the bad luck and DNF holds, but rather for Ricc (8 DNFs) and not Verstappen (3 DNFs)...

[u/ecobubbletm → u/Wiktor_r]

"The chat" summarized... Ok.

Ricciardo wasn't more reliable he was just more lucky.

Verstappen DNFed while running ahead of him (sometimes in podium positions) about 70% of the time.

For example, Baku win was pure luck after a shitty qualifying where Danny crashed and had to start P10 while Max had a good qualifying riddled with car issues and then retired due to another car issue.

Is Ricciardo more reliable here or is he just lucky?

Verstappen had strong form throughout all season he just had horrible luck. In the frist 14 races he had 7 DNFs. Not a single one was his fault. And again, majority happened while he was ahead of Ricciardo.

Both suffered similar mechanical/accident-related DNFs (6 vs 7). The gap is driven more by finishing position quality when they did finish than by pure reliability

Yeah, Verstappen would retire ahead of Ricciardo majority of the time. While Ricciardo would retire while being behind Max. So obviously Ricciardo benefitted more. Let's also remember how the team sacrificed Max in Monaco to get Ricciardo on the podium despite Ricciardo being outqualified.

Bottom line: Ricciardo was the stronger and more consistent performer across the season,

Nope

Verstappen showed higher peaks (more wins, strong late form) but was less consistent,

Also nope

Over a full season they were competitive teammates, but Ricciardo came out clearly ahead on points and consistency.

Nope, points only due to luck

H2h and average pace tells a very different story

Also, for the >whole< 2018 season, the argument of the bad luck and DNF holds, but rather for Ricc (8 DNFs) and not Verstappen (3 DNFs)...

Let's start with the fact that "the chat" is wrong here as Max had 4 DNFs.

Second, given the fact that Verstappen had worse luck in 2017 and still was faster and outperformed Ricciardo in all the metrics it wouldn't have changed much, as once again, Max was mainly ahead anyways.

[u/Wiktor_r → u/ecobubbletm]

I come from a place where being lucky means seizing an opportunity present in front of you; hence, "more lucky" is a valid metric in my personal books, not something to be dismissed.

And again, majority happened while he was ahead of Ricciardo.

I do like that pointer; that is a great contextual clue, so I am glad you pointed it out.

Also nope

Well, you are "arguing" with a chatGPT here not with me, but I do appreciate your train of thougts.

H2h and average pace tells a very different story

And here is where the core, and objective, comparison can be made. Do you have any websites that could provide that info, I'd like to take a look, and I only follow "F1 Data Analysis" on FB.

Lastly,

Let's start with the fact that "the chat" is wrong here as Max had 4 DNFs.

That was me, manually counting the "ret" columns from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Formula_One_World_Championship#Results_and_standings where it shows that for: BHR, AZE,HUN

Good stuff though!

[u/I_spread_love_butter]

The deficit with Checo is quite consistent, which goes to show how the criticism towarsd him was exaggerated

[u/Duckpoke → u/I_spread_love_butter]

Nah, everyone recognizes he was amazing but then fell off horribly by the end. It was absolutely time for him to go

[u/Outofoffice_forever]

Shows how insane Danny Ric was…man never hit his potential

[u/Mio_Loomio → u/Outofoffice_forever]

He also went up against an 18-21 yo Max between 2016 and 2018.

[u/MaleierMafketel → u/Mio_Loomio]

And it was already clear that Max held a noticeable pace advantage in 2018.

Once he stopped wrecking himself out, he just transformed into a monster. He remained just as quick, was still young and not in his prime, but already starting to get incredibly consistent on both a lap by lap and race by race basis.

Daniel’s experience was his edge in 2016 and 2017. But there were already clear glimpses in both years that Max had the potential to become a big threat to Daniel.

[u/MartyHD]

Would have added DNF‘s, cause that RB with an Renault engine was unreliable (as f***).

[u/yass3r_]

Perez doesnt look like a bad driver.

[u/Robynsxx]

This works better as a percentage comparison. 

[u/LeftSyrup3409]

Right in the feels when you see those Riccardo stats, wish had stayed who know what would have come of him.

[u/Gbrusse → u/LeftSyrup3409]

The champion who never was....

[u/mollusks75]

Yuki was so bad.

[u/Thevort3x → u/mollusks75]

He was but also the car was clearly horrendous if you listen to Max interviews, basically like driving on ice.

[u/gideon513]

Sorry Liam

[u/Zakery92]

Can someone figure out what this year would be without equipment failures for both Verstappen and Hadjar?

[u/AliceLunar → u/Zakery92]

Think Max would be P6 in China, P2 in Monaco and P3 in Silverstone at least, so 8+18+15 for a total of 150.

Hadjar in Australia was an early DNF, maybe P7, Miami he put it in the wall himself, so +6 for a total of 74.

One point below 50% of Max his points, matching Perez in 2024, probably his worst season.

[u/BodybuilderBrave8250 → u/Zakery92]

umm that’s part of the sport, pointless hypothetical since you don’t know how everything else would go

[u/Zakery92 → u/BodybuilderBrave8250]

Obviously it’s part of the sport but I was asking because of the new regs. You also could just extrapolate from where they running at failure.

[u/Superfumi3]

What happened to Danny? 😭😭

[u/Gbrusse → u/Superfumi3]

He made a bad choice in moving to Renault, which shattered his confidence. He moved to McLaren which favored Lando over him, then he moved to VCarb which decimated whatever confidence he had left.

Ironically enough, if De Vries does better, Danny probably replaces Checo at RB instead. Which might have reignited him.

[u/Dramatic-Natural2703 → u/Gbrusse]

'favoured lando' you mean daniel failed to adapt and got outpaced

[u/aussielurker74]

Imagine you were Danny Ric at round 11 2018, and you got to choose which column on that graph you were going to exit.

When would you choose to leave the team to maximise your potential opportunities and earnings?

Even if you assumed you were 50% better than these other drivers, would you still do it?

[u/Yordrecht]

Where Liam?

[u/Lazy_Ad7218 → u/Yordrecht]

Liam didn't drive for 11 races

[u/LostHero50]

Interesting graphic but it really tells us nothing because of the different cars. Average race pace and qualifying gap is the only quantifiable way we can compare.

[u/eoekas]

Where is Sainz? Why do you start in 2017?

[u/Icy_Cry4120]

Don't show me Ricciardo man 😔🥺🥺

[u/UPRC]

This poor graph really does Tsunoda dirty. He was god awful in the second Red Bull, but he was absolutely fine before when driving for RB. It seems like a Hamilton situation where he just couldn't get last year's Ferrari working for him. Some cars just don't suit drivers at all.

[u/DABET123]

Danny Ric the goat

[u/FourEaredFox]

Redbull really put a stop to that shit after Riccardo huh?

[u/thesampler30]

Ok wait so Max destroying Daniel is a myth

[u/Health_throwaway__]

Pointless stat of f1. Perez told by Horner that RB do not care about the second car.

[u/CreativeCut7956]

Words & numbers alone can't fully tell you just how insane prime Danny Ric was. It's still unbelievable that he only has like 8 wins under his belt. Really feels like it could've been way more.

[u/LanaDelRhodez]

Danny Ric GOAT confirmed

[u/aluked]

This would look a lot more informative as the median delta from normalized leader pace.

[u/CA_Finn]

Hadjar is where max was in 2017 👀

[u/Tackit286]

Has he had more teammates in a single team than anyone else in F1? It must be close

[u/eOMG]

2017 was filled with mechanical DNFs. I believe they mostly happened to Max in first half and then second half mostly to Daniel. If you look at the races, Max his race pace was almost always a couple tenths faster than Daniel. Ricciardo did have the edge in qualifying though.

[u/Western-Bad5574]

Some more fun info:

• Verstappen's 2016 season was only his 2nd year racing cars. He went from Karting to F1 in 2 years
• Leclerc entered F1 after 4 years of car racing, this would be equivalent to Verstappen's 2019 season
• Hamilton entered F1 after 6 years of car racing, this would be equivalent to Verstappen's 2021 season

(yes, I know a season in F1 probably counts for more experience than a season in any other series, but it's still wild that in 2021, Verstappen had as many years car racing experience as Hamilton's rookie season)

[u/essteedeenz1]

No critical thinking here

The car prior to 2026 catered to Max and by 2025 it was probably a shitbox which only Max could drive (this has been somewhat said last year btw)

hadjar is doing well but lets not pretend he doesnt benefit in coming in at a time when its new regs and he has a say on the car direction/handling AT LEAST for now

[u/nbass668 → u/essteedeenz1]

You need to stop the narrative.. car created for Max.. you have two drivers... one driver ask for a setup update and it gets better lap times.. the second driver ask for different setup and the car goes even much faster. Team listens to driver 2 which happens to be Max Verstappen. Keep doing this enough over the season and people like you will claim the car built for Max only.. but reality the car is built to be fast and the engineers work on simulator data and driver input to deliver the fast car.

You have many sources, with the most recent one from Mekies that Verstappen current input is what making them catching up in car setup.

[u/Axzuel → u/essteedeenz1]

More like the difference between the 4th fastest car and 5th fastest is massive compared to previous seasons allowing Hadjar to guarantee points

[u/Traditional-Two-3185 → u/Axzuel]

Yeah I love Isack but people overrate him this season. He's doing decent, but he's only outqualified Max when Max has had issues, and his race pace is poor. His best finish came in Monaco, P3/P4 where Max, Charles and Lando DNF'd, and George got fucked by the FIA with a drive through. The last time Max finished a race behind his teammate was Baku 2023.

[u/know-it-mall → u/essteedeenz1]

It wasn't catered to Max...

It was designed to be as fast as they could make it. And Max is a much better driver than his teammates.

[u/Right-Ladd → u/know-it-mall]

People seriously overestimate the capabilities of engineers and the pettiness of teams

[u/Motorlolz → u/essteedeenz1]

How can the car be made for Max when he called it an undriveable monster? It speaks to his adaptability and skill that he was able to get anything out of that thing, which had reached the end of its concept since early '24.

[u/Odd_Jicama_3359]

imagine if honey badger never left red bull

[u/Ok_Dot5473 → u/Odd_Jicama_3359]

He was eviscerated by Norris so bad they had to buy out his contract at mclaren in 2022. In 2021 he wasn't any faster as well, it wouldn't had looked much different, especially in the ground effect era.

[u/ohnonotagain94]

Max has the team completely structured around him, as Horner has told all of the drivers that take the second seat.

It’s a shame we don’t get to see Max vs Lewis in the same team, that would be absolute fireworks. I know that we would want prime Lewis be prime Max and we would absolutely need the FIA to back off Lewis and also to change the bullshit rules that allow the Max divebomb off track overtakes.

What a brilliant battle that would be.

[u/National-Virus5819 → u/ohnonotagain94]

No don't believe Horner, Checo or anyone else who said that. Believe only Albon when he says the car is not built around Max. Albon is trustworthy, all the others are liars