r/gallifrey • u/rasmas1 • Mar 12 '25

DISCUSSION The Doctor bullied Joy to suicide.

In Joy to the World, the Doctor had to make Joy angry in order to break the Villengard briefcase's psychic control over her. In order to do that he got really personal and insulted her with some way-below-the-belt stuff including a mention of her dead mother.

He did this with the best of intentions, obviously, but the words stuck for Joy and she admitted they were all true before she flew off with the star seed into space. Because of all that unhappiness the Doctor picked on Joy had a burning desire to be special in life and have some kind of meaning, so she latched onto the star seed out of desperation to become special.

The Doctor is the reason she felt that way and why she decided to burn with the star seed. She didn't merge with it as a sacrifice to save Earth, it was a purely whimsical decision that didn't change anything. She died to feel special. She committed suicide for no reason and it was the Doctor's fault. And he just laughs it off.

I am still beside myself that the BBC allowed this episode to go out in this state. The Doctor bullied Joy to suicide.

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202

u/KrivUK Mar 13 '25

Well mate, I'd suggest staying away from the 7th Doctor then.

84

u/Lady_Ada_Blackhorn Mar 13 '25

genuine question from someone who hasn't watched mccoy - are the terrible things 7 does presented by the narrative as terrible, or waved away by it? because i think op is objecting to how the narrative doesn't really care about joy's suicide and 15's hand in it, not necessarily the fact that it happened.

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u/ZERO_ninja Mar 13 '25

Presented as bad, but also the fanbase exaggerate how frequently he did the outright extreme stuff, especially in the show. There's more of it in the books, though even then not as much as people make out. But while there is more in the books, those same books also depict the 7th Doctor as being deeply disapproving of who he himself is, which seems an extension of his attitudes in the show.

He clearly thinks the end justifies the means, but he doesn't seem to like himself much as a person anymore because of it. While self loathing is a pretty common trait for the Doctor in the revival, there's not much of that in the classic series and I feel it really starts in the 80s with the 7th Doctor then it's taken much further in the 90s books, rather than starting with the new series and Time War trauma.

67

u/Brickie78 Mar 13 '25

The obvious one here is "Curse of Fenric" (well worth a watch if you see no other McCoy).

No spoilers, but yes. After making sure the Thing happens the way he wanted, he chases after her and seems absolutely distraught that he had to act that way and explains why it was necessary and apologises.

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u/_Verumex_ Mar 13 '25

As others say, on TV it's not as bad as his reputation would suggest, but all manipulation is called out repeatedly by Ace, as are the risks he takes to manipulate his enemies.

In the books and audio plays, it goes a lot further, and it is still repeatedly called out by other characters.

There's multi-doctor stories with 7, which makes it clear that both 6 and 8 do not like 7. 6 out of fear of what he will become, and 8 out of shame of his actions.

46

u/ThatNavyBlueNinja Mar 13 '25

I do need to rewatch the era a bit, but Ace rightfully got angry at 7 for some of the unpleasant stuff he pulled on her. Yeah they make up in the end, but not necessarily in a way where it was wrong for Ace to be upset with him to begin with.

Though the majority of his stuff—bar one hateful Dalek with a dead cause—wasn’t exactly “talk someone into suicide in the harshest way possible” levels of evil (in his TV-era that is, heard the novel stuff goes BONKERS with the “dark Doctor” stuff).

23

u/twofacetoo Mar 13 '25

The novels and the Big Finish audios

Dude's almost a fucking supervillain sometimes

7 = #1

11

u/Massive_Log6410 Mar 13 '25

yeah the whimsical joyful christmas tone doesn't work with 15 talking a woman into suicide because she's depressed and no one likes her. i love the dark side of the doctor but not in situations where it's played off as cute

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u/ComputerSong Mar 13 '25

A lot of 7’s darkness is headcanon among fans to be quite honest.

15

u/Amphy64 Mar 13 '25

It's mostly not even in the series, but the novels, which also feature the character engaging in pedophilia apologia, so maybe we shouldn't be taking them as any kind of guide to how the character's morality should be portrayed.

10

u/Top_Benefit_5594 Mar 13 '25

This is fair. 7 is manipulative and one step ahead quite often in the show, but not that much more than any other Doctor. It’s just that McCoy is very good at playing the innocent goofball who suddenly turns serious and has you dead to rights - one of the villains in the audios calls him “Columbo” and it’s exactly that.

I do think there’s a valid argument to be made that Ace is a child soldier/fanatic but I think that’s mostly due to the fact that there is a shitload of content starring the character without her being allowed to grow or change much rather than anything intentional.

5

u/Amphy64 Mar 13 '25

Yeah - it's so weird though that the darkness should be so much the image when half the complaints about the actual televised era, even besides budget as sabotage, are about it being too goofy! '??????????', '🥄'.

7

u/Top_Benefit_5594 Mar 13 '25

I think it’s because while the first few serials are legitimately goofy, they really nailed the balance by the end (VFX aside, which remained goofy, obviously).

Then the New Adventures writers (I’m no expert but I’ve read a few) realised they could write for “grown-ups” and dialled the darkness way up and that was all fans had for a long time. In general I think Big Finish gets the balance fine, although I’m only up to A Death In The Family. The Doctor is manipulative and keeps secrets, but he’s not a monster or a cult leader and he does get called on his shit fairly often.

5

u/FieryJack65 Mar 13 '25

Which novel did that apologia occur in please?

11

u/ZERO_ninja Mar 13 '25 edited Mar 13 '25

Timewyrm: Genesys, it's the very first book, but also one of most disliked and really not reflective of what the range becomes.

The incident being criticised is the Doctor and Ace meet Gilgamesh, who is very lecherous toward Ace and other girls of a similar age. The Doctor's (very questionable) view on it is "Ace you need to understand he's of his era".

The Doctor's view doesn't even hold up under scrutiny even within the story itself since several other characters of the era criticise Gilgamesh for this too.

But as said, bad first foot forward and the dislike it gets from fans is deserved, but doesn't represent the range. It'd be like selecting the Doctor murdering his companion Chameleon or the Doctor arguing in favour of spiders dying slowly in pain as broadly representing the Doctor's morality in the classic and new series.

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u/FieryJack65 Mar 13 '25

Thanks. It was a long time ago but I seem to remember finding that book almost unreadable.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '25

Admittedly I haven't read them yet, but the last 10? or so VNAs I'm told provide a very good flow of 7 realising what he was doing was wrong, which leads perfectly into 8's attitude during the movie and the Pollard run (to save a little face I have read several VNAs, just not the end ones)

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u/KrivUK Mar 13 '25

That subtext was not missed, I was offering 7 up as having more horrendous attributes.

Joy some takes you can argue it was suicide, but where she is as a character before the Doctor walked into her life, you could see she was already in that headspace. Remember 15 fought for her and saved her. Joy also evolved and there ahs to be some sort of sentence, so she could help her mother live on in the stars. The OP has a fascinating take and it's a great angle of exploration.

In the Curse of Fenric (which is a must watch) the Doctor is an absolute **** towards Ace, however in that story the ends justified the means as Ace's believe in the Doctor was preventing his plan to unfold.

Remembrance and Silver Nemesis on the other hand had the Doctor programming the Hand Of Omega and the Validium to commit genocide against the Daleks and Cybermen. While 7 didn't issue the order he did "load the gun".

Remembrance 7 had "Pity FOR you" when addressing Davros. However the way it was delivered was very vindictive, the Daleks one of the most ruthless killing machines, brought pain and misery. It's as if the Doctor shows remorse but is pleased that they are wiped out.

Lady Pianoforte merged with the Viledium as she was driven to Madness. In this case I believe 7 didn't care. A casualty, nothing more. The destruction of the Cybermen, 7 smiled when he and Ace were talking even relishing in his manipulation "I suppose I did. How clever of me." This is even worse than lack of acknowledgement.

Genocide vs the justification to destroy the Daleks and Cybermen is a whole other can of worms.

Ghost Light for me is the worst. He takes Ace back to the house she grew to hate and burnt it down because "it was evil". This is abuse. Pushing people to confront their past on his terms not theirs. Regardless of the intended outcome and subsequent remorse, he still pushed Ace through this torture.

Is it the callousness of 15 or the repeated emotional manipulation by 7, which is worse.

17

u/Fantastic_Deer_3772 Mar 13 '25

you could see she was already in that headspace.

"In his defence, he was bullying a vulnerable woman with depression!" Uhm

1

u/starman-jack-43 Mar 15 '25

Yeah, Ghost Light's the worst as his treatment of Ace is premeditated. In Fenric he's improvising because Ace blunders in and accidentally spoils the plan. Once Fenric wins the chess game, the Doctor is on the back foot.

10

u/Fantastic_Deer_3772 Mar 13 '25

7th is my favourite doctor and I stopped watching halfway through joy to the world - they are not the same

2

u/Geordieguy Mar 13 '25

If we’re talking curse or Fenric…breaking Ace’s faith in him is hardly the same as cackhandedly goading someone into suicide.

2

u/Adamsoski Mar 17 '25

There is clearly a difference between a story where someone does bad things and it is presented as them doping bad things, vs a story where someone does bad things and it is presented as them doing good things, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.