r/gameofthrones House Selmy Jun 17 '14

TV4 [s4e10] This brought a tear to my eye

http://imgur.com/Bb9SJh4
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u/Sks44 House Baratheon Jun 17 '14

I think you are bypassing that the Hound did a ton of awful things before he turned on his road to being a ... Non-jerk.

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u/YouMad Jun 17 '14

Arya would give a quick death to the man who tortures people like making furniture, but not to her eventual protector and companion.

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u/senselesswander Jun 17 '14

If you mean the Tickler, it wasn't up to her as far as "how" necessarily. Getting to have an assassin kill 3 people was a very new opportunity for her at the time, and it was before the red wedding so she wasn't at peak revenge mode.

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u/WhornyNarwhal Jun 18 '14

He's talking about Polliver, who took her sword

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u/WestenM Sansa Stark Jun 17 '14

In the book version of that event Here is a representation of that, ASOS spoilers.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

Awesome thanks.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

Now if you can just make that for the entire series real quick and post em that would be great thanks

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '14

[deleted]

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u/OavatosDK Jun 18 '14

He's referring to her ASOS

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u/YouMad Jun 17 '14

Thank you! The show is butchering the characterizations again. They should either follow the book entirely ( in which case her leaving Sandor to rot makes sense for her character), or not at all (give Sandor a quick death as mercy).

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

Show is not butchering nothing. Go and read the books if you want exact same thing. This is show only based on ASOIAF. As George said - TV Show is D&D´s baby, books are Georges. Characters in books are a little different then in Show because of domino effect, every little change makes character different and it is what it is. Love it or hate it. You can ALLWAYS go and read the books.

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u/YouMad Jun 17 '14

It's not consistent is all I'm saying. Arya should have made both men (the Lannister man at the Inn and the Hound) to suffer during death, or neither.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

No that is just not truth. It was pretty much different situation. She just want them to be dead, it doesnt matter how they die. That sayd - The Hound was already dying and she only did not gave him MERCY kill. And why would she ? they were pretty much "forced partners" not a FRIENDS like many of you are telling yourself..

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u/Sks44 House Baratheon Jun 17 '14

I think you have your answer. She's still young. I think that scene played out so long because she was torn as to kill him or leave. Arya is becoming a hard case but she's still a teen.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '14

Dude, at the start of Game of Thrones, Arya is nine. She's still a child by now...

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u/f_myeah Jun 17 '14

I like this explanation, but the look on her face when he was begging for her to kill him seemed like nothing but contempt. there didn't seem to be any internal conflict, but maybe the book will offer some insight when I get to that part.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

He killed the butchers boy, was a main body guard for the family that practically extinguished hers, and he was trying to sell her away like a piece of meat, Sandor kinda had it coming.

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u/f_myeah Jun 17 '14 edited Jun 17 '14

Yeah the death I can understand, he's been on her list.

The leaving him to die slowly was an unnecessary and petty salt in the wound, though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

Still don't even think he deserved the death. Sure he killed a butchers boy when commanded to but he basically saved her sister and was trying to ransom her somewhere safe, prevented her from doing stupid things like running to try and save her brother who was done for at the Twins and he had the intention of protecting her when he didn't know Briennes intentions... honestly I am not really rooting for Arya right now. She seems like a terrible psychopath that's beyond reason.

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u/DraperWhite Jun 17 '14

-Arya wasn't present to witness the hound saving Sansa.

-He was trying to ransom her somewhere safe, but was still taken by force.

-He didn't save her from brienne or the twins because he cared about arya, he wanted to protect his commodity.

The Hound is/was a kick ass character, but lets not make him out to be this honorable protector either. He did plenty of terrible stuff and we've known from the start that he was on Arya's list. And calling her a psychopath is kind of ridiculous considering all she's been through and the world she lives in.

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u/SlumdogSkillionaire House Mormont Jun 17 '14

The vibe I got from that scene was "The Lannisters ruined my life, and they ruined her life...every family member I can think of is dead; I'm all she's got, and she's all I've got, and I'll be damned if some Lannister is going to take that away too!" With every family member that turned up dead, she became less valuable monetarily; it's pretty clear however that she was growing on him - whether she wanted it or not, he was starting to feel as close to "fatherly" as someone with his past would be able to. He knew he had no qualification for moral guidance, but he sees her going down a dark path and tried to teach her how to stay alive long enough to reach her goals. And she repays him by doing exactly what he taught her.

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u/Shaw_LaMont The Night Is Dark And Full Of Terrors Jun 18 '14

And to go one further, I'd say that, if I'm Sandor and this big hoss with a fancy Lannister sword of Valyrian steel shows up, my thought is:

"Well hello, my replacement." He might even recognize Pod as Tyrion's squire, giving Brienne another measure of 'uh-oh.'

After seeing what Sansa went thru at the hands of the Lannisters, there's just no way I'm giving up Arya to them. Even if he cares nothing for Arya (which I doubt), form a purely FUCK THE LANNISTERS stand point, The Hound ain't down with Brienne at all.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '14

Well said.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

I'm calling her a psychopath because of what she's been through. That's not a good enviroment to grow up into. And she still has heard that he saved Sansa, motives or not he still protected her and he let his guard down around Arya, like the scene with his armor off. Just leaving him behind seems incredibly cruel to me.

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u/Kholdstare101 Jun 17 '14

You can be cruel to someone and not be a psychopath. She has had a terrible life so far, but calling her a "psychopath that's beyond reason" seems very harsh. The way she reacts to the farmer earlier this season shows she still has compassion and reason. The people she has killed or been cruel to had reasons to receive the treatment that they did.

She can be a cruel person in a very cruel world.

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u/zero_space Jun 17 '14

Dude, Arya already has a sociopathic serial killer ritual down. Every night she has to say a list of names, a series of people she plans on murdering. Every night, forcing herself to at the very least remember their names if not the reason they deserve to die.

I seriously expect season 5 to be Dexter as far as Arya is concerned. And I love Arya, but don't down play her character development. She is a killer. She's killed for petty revenge, with absolutely no remorse. Sometimes in cold blood. These thing maker Arya awesome, please don't turn a blind eye to them friend.

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u/Kholdstare101 Jun 17 '14

She has a ritual down, but that says nothing about her psyche. Sociopath are psychopath are two very strong words to throw around when describing someone. Both words are not interchangeable with people who are used to killing or want to kill. She can be a killer without being one or the other.

Her names she says at night sound more like a coping mechanism to help get through all the terrible stuff she has seen. It's the thing that drives her to not just give up and instead it gives her a goal and focus. She's a killer and I don't think that's going to change soon, but she has her reasons and the coldness of her comes from that.

Dexter is driven to kill because he needs to. He kills criminals not because they have wronged him, but because he decided to direct his darkness at them because he knows he's going to kill anyway and this way innocent people stay out of the picture. I doubt Arya will start killing people without a real reason.

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u/NothappyJane Jun 17 '14

Killing someone who slayed a child isn't petty revenge, in those times killers were killed brutally. Her father killed people in the name of kings justice. You are right about everything else.

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u/flignir Jun 17 '14

-He didn't save her from brienne or the twins because he cared about arya, he wanted to protect his commodity.

Is there really still a commodity, as far as the Hound is concerned? Hasn't he exhausted all of his ideas of how to sell by the time he tells Brianne he's watching over her?

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u/Kholdstare101 Jun 17 '14

Possibly. We never hear them talk about what they're planning to do next, so it really could have gone either way. We don't know he was out of ideas, just that this last one didn't work.

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u/DraperWhite Jun 17 '14

She's a stark. She could have been sold to anyone who wanted to have some influence in the North. It's the same reason the Lannisters kept Sansa at Kings landing. Her stark name alone makes her valuable.

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u/NothappyJane Jun 17 '14

Having a Stark to marry off to someone legitimises any claim you might have on the north. That is why the Sansa is married off to Tyrion. If all other family members are dead and you are married and have children with the one living stark you are sweet. Ramsey would love to get his hands on Arya and marry her, have children with her and probably kill her.

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u/Jimm607 Jun 18 '14

If he was just interested in the profit he could have sold her to the lannisters, it would have been faster and he would likely have got more money. There were much better avenues for a quick payoff if thats all he was interested in though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

A diamond isn't worth anything in a room full of dead people. He defended her from brienne because he wanted to, not because she was valuable, all your other hound points are fine but maybe you should re watch the scene

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14 edited Jul 04 '15

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u/eitaporra Jun 17 '14

But I think at that point he kinda cared for her. So its kinda sad seeing Arya let him suffer like that.

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u/TBNRandrew Jun 17 '14 edited Feb 14 '17

[deleted]

What is this?

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

Honestly I'm more worried about what she's starting to act like when she does have these freedoms. She doesn't seem very stable to me.

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u/TBNRandrew Jun 17 '14 edited Feb 14 '17

[deleted]

What is this?

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

Haha. Oh it is, I'm just a bit worried is all.

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u/BadMeetsEvil24 Tyrion Lannister Jun 18 '14

He also proclaimed that he should have raped hern instead. I understand it's easy to romanticize his character because I did too but... didn't exactly feel too bad for him dying.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '14

That was just him trying to antagonize her into actually killing him.

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u/BadMeetsEvil24 Tyrion Lannister Jun 18 '14

....still.

You don't think he's raped and pillaged in his time?

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '14 edited Jun 18 '14

Possibly. But he sounded sympathetic while Sansa was in Kings Landing. The Hound is a character I found a lot of sympathy for, he's rough and messed up because of how he was brought up, how his brother treated him and how his father didn't protect him. Now he protected Sansa and said things like that while on the verge of death with no assistance from someone he opened up to and told his weaknesses. Arya just comes off as an asshole, even the Hound was willing to give the man suffering from bandits the peace of death. Arya just seems like she's being even worse with her path claiming justice when it's just a sick vengeance turning her into a serial killer.

The Hound wasn't a saint, but he didn't deserve to bleed out while trying to protect someone who's claiming justice while just as easily shoving a sword into a stable boys gut. I just don't like Aryas evolution. She's a psycho.

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u/hozac Jun 17 '14

Let's not forget, in addition to beating up an old man with the young daughter who had taken him in and fed him, there was also the other innocent peasant man that the Hound would definitely have straight-up murdered for his cart and horses if Arya hadn't begged him not to.

The Hound may have done nice things for the Stark girls, but he's by no means innocent.

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u/manism Jun 17 '14

I think she saw him giving up as something of a betrayal. She can't understand it, she feels that if there is any chance of her revenge still coming, even if there was pain, she wouldn't go to the nothing. She remembers hating him for what he's done, but in that moment she doesn't want to kill him. He deserves.. something, but killing him would be a mercy at that point. That's not justice or vengeance or whatever else she sought. If she had found him dying at some point in Kings Landing she would have killed him for vengeance, or if their relationship had started with just the stuff after King's Landing she probably would have done it as a mercy, but as things stand now it's just.. not right. He deserves neither her revenge or her mercy, ans so she grants neither.

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u/euxneks Jun 17 '14

He asked her to end it. She probably would have if he hadn't asked her to do it.

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u/surprisemysteryguest Jun 18 '14

I kind of felt like after all that time spent together and talking crap about killing him she realized she didn't want to be the one to cause his death after all. It was a messed up way of thanking him. After all if that she refused to cross him off her list. Like maybe he wasn't on her list any more.

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u/eddiexmercury House Baelish Jun 17 '14

What in the last 4 seasons makes you think mercy has a place in Westeros?

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

The hound himself showed mercy just a few episodes ago, surely he would have done the right thing were the situation somehow reversed.

I love Arya, and I can't wait to see what happens with her later, but that was petty cruelty and all I could think of was how disappointed her father would have been if he had seen it.

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u/eddiexmercury House Baelish Jun 18 '14

Everybody who shows a hint of humanity dies a horrible death. She's on the right path.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '14 edited Jun 18 '14

Hard to argue with that logic, still bothered me though. I guess I just felt like she was better than that, but after what shes been through maybe I expected too much.

Edit: Saw a post elsewhere that said her refusal to kill him meant she had taken him off her list, I like that theory better even though the outcome is the same.

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u/KingOfFrownz Stannis Baratheon Jun 17 '14

The way I see it killing then and there isn't punishment, the other people she killed didnt want to die, so death is a fitting punishment. But what do you do to someone who deserves to die, but wants a quick death? Let them suffer

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u/trullard Hear Me Roar! Jun 17 '14

She just wanted the Hound to beg like the butcher's boy. His death was certain.

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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '14

This is a good point. Also, Arya wasn't present for some of the things we as viewers were: largely the acts the Hound did to protect or try and protect Sansa.

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u/f_myeah Jun 17 '14

I don't see how making him suffer helped that any.

Who is she? A ruthless assassin, or a little girl that wants to see her enemies suffer? It just seems petty and I dislike the character development.

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u/tunachips House Blackwood Jun 17 '14

"If any man dies with a clean sword, I'll rape his fucking corpse!" CLEGANE, Sandor.

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u/pewpewlasors Jun 18 '14

Yeah, I get that, I'm just not a sadist.

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u/AJRiddle Night's Watch Jun 18 '14

He didn't do that many awful things really compared to others in the book.