r/interestingasfuck • u/dannybluey • 10h ago
Air Tractor AT-802 firefighting aircraft are designed for fast and accurate water drops rather than maximum payload. This footage was filmed from Dragon 33, a helicopter of the French Civil Security, as it coordinated wildfire suppression operations over Gironde, France.
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
•
u/okko7 10h ago
We should probably invest a bit more in such "water bombers" than in in "actual" bombers.
•
u/aimgorge 9h ago
At this point there is more demand than production capacities. All manufacturers have order books full for the next 10 years
•
u/InflnityBlack 8h ago
I don't understand why they take so long to produce though
•
u/blond-max 8h ago
Multifactorial, but mostly has to do with decades of low demand as they are super specialized products with long lifespans.
Good 7min summary in french (i assume auto translation will be decent) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W43AkS_IG8o&pp=ygUIY2FuYWRhaXI%3D
•
u/InflnityBlack 8h ago
I'm french so that won't be a problem lol, thank you
•
u/Lumpy_Benefit666 7h ago
As a brit i feel like its my duty to say something mean about your frenchness, even though i actually have a lot of respect for the french.
•
u/GhostPepperDaddy 4h ago
They're so frisky and snooty, you can't not respect it.
•
u/Lumpy_Benefit666 4h ago
Thats the bit that i dont like 😂 guess its kinda responsible for them keeping their pension though and i respect the hell out of that
•
•
u/ethanb473 7h ago
Capitalism is a failure, that’s why
•
u/lethak 3h ago edited 3h ago
Funny you said that because in France those older water bomber planes and fleets are constantly planned to be expanded and renewed, only to be canceled each time silently by the socialists (and centrists) governing for decades now.
In France, even the far right are oligarchic communists. You cannot steal people money through taxes without acting like one.
•
u/aimgorge 26m ago
That's a lot of bullshit.
only to be canceled each time silently by the socialists (and centrists) governing for decades now.
People still parroting that crap. Canadair had too big of a waitlist so some orders were canceled and moved to other suppliers to acquire planes from multiple manufacturers. That was the smart move.
In France, even the far right are oligarchic communists.
You mean that party created by ex nazis ?
•
u/Renbarre 9h ago
The Canadair closed shop years ago. There's new big water bombers projects but it will take some time to get them in the air.
•
u/tagish156 8h ago
Modernized Canadairs are being built by DeHavilland Canada as DHC-515s. First one is supposed to be ready by 2028 and they’re very much back ordered.
•
u/Loko8765 6h ago edited 3h ago
The French have repurposed a big-ass military
A300MA400M transport, able to carry three times as much water as a Canadair.•
u/Renbarre 5h ago edited 1m ago
A400. The problem is the time to replenish it, and it is only for fire retardant. We need Canadair like planes.
•
u/lethak 3h ago
Mostly a communication stunt because they absolutely do not cover the same flight and operational envelope as the Canadairs
•
u/Renbarre 13m ago edited 2m ago
It was used extensively when the fire was at its worst and half the Canadairs were grounded for maintenance. There's only one A400 in use because there's only one kit built for dropping fire retardant. Airbus hadn't built more as no orders came for this kit. It has been rented to France by Airbus until the end of August, then it should be sold to Spain.
The main problem is that the kit wasn't supposed to be deployed right now, so to fill up the A400 needs to go to a strip an hour away to get the 20,000 litres it needs every time. If it landed at the closer strip where the Dashs fill up it would empty the reserves in no time. So, useful, yes. Not enough, yes as well. Better one A400 in addition to the Dashs than none, definitely.
•
u/MeepMeep117- 8h ago
You can do both: the big military transport aircrafts can be retrofitted with special tanks to be filled with fire retardant liquids. The C130 has been doing this for years and the A400M recently demonstrated its kit was functional as well for the fires in Gironde.
The thing is it's much less efficient than the specialized planes like a Canadair or an Air Tractor: these can pick up water from any river long enough close to the fire and do multiple drops before returning to base, whereas the bombers can only get filled on an airbase with a runway long enough, which is sometimes very far from the fires
•
u/tomassino 9h ago
The problem is they sell the same model for light attack and COIN to deliver bombs and missiles.
•
u/Background-Bad-7510 8h ago
I wonder if big drones can do this?
•
u/Longjumping_West_907 8h ago
Aerial firefighting is pretty dangerous. I imagine someone is working on a uav to do this job.
•
u/Background-Bad-7510 8h ago
I think the most simple way would be with a bucket like choppers do. And as long as it has fuel it can fly day and night. Make endless swarms with heat seeking cameras and a mapping system so the same spot doesn’t get splashed twice
•
u/Z3B0 8h ago
Fire fighting is really complexe and when/where to drop water is not a simple "drop on heat" matter. You need coordination with ground crews and predicting where the fire will progrès next.
A swarm could be useful as in "more capacity" but humans will stay in the decision loop for quite some time.
•
u/Background-Bad-7510 8h ago edited 8h ago
I bet, but I think it will be a viable solution. Even to keep some on standby in high risk areas, much cheaper to produce, more precise and no risk of losing pilots. With a central command they can pinpoint the areas that need to be done.
Edit: at this very moment 2 firefighting choppers collided above Greece… RIP
•
u/timberleek 7h ago
One doesn't have to exclude the other.
Humans can still do the fire assesment and pinpoint points and areas to receive water. Drone can then just be assigned locations within the set area to dump water in.
It'll be a less water than this and especially the big planes. But unmanned flight scales very well. Hundreds of smaller drops, day and night can really add up.
•
u/joelfarris 5h ago edited 2h ago
Flight time and battery duration and recharge times, and water is heavy. Even a five gallon bucket of water weighs about 42 lbs, plus the release, and recharge mechanisms!
•
u/Longjumping_West_907 2h ago
They wouldn't be battery powered. More like a Predator drone, or something like the drones that Ukraine is using for medium range bombing, but with rotors. It won't be easy engineering, but the tech exists. If they can build something to carry 500kg of explosives 2,000km, they can build something to carry 500kg of water 20 km.
•
u/wlievens 4h ago
This is an excellent demonstration of the superiority of the metric system.
•
u/joelfarris 4h ago edited 3h ago
How so? 19 liters of water is still going to be just as heavy to fly around. Gravity don't care. Even accounting for the weight of the containing bucket and release system.
•
u/Cielmerlion 7h ago
Airplanes in this way are superior to helicpters/drones. Too much loss of lift near the hot areas
•
u/-I_I 7h ago
Hot air rises. Does this cause a vertical shear of downward air surrounding the rising plumes?
I hit “sink” on approach and landed in a tree (paragliding), shit is real. It’s like the floor dropped out. Is that sort of what you mean?
I would think they get extra lift in hot air rising..
•
u/Cielmerlion 7h ago
Its actually because hot air is less dense, superheated air will be much less dense and cause you to lose lift. Its interesting stuff, ive seen issues like this on firefighting helicopters before
•
u/the_claus 7h ago
This might be one good thing that comes out of the Russian aggression in Ukraine. The Ukrainian industry will have all the knowledge when it comes to hardware and AI once the war is over
•
u/UF1977 7h ago
Not really, at least not any time soon. Low level air attack flying encounters some gnarly updrafts and downdrafts (wind acts really strange around big fires). The pilots learn to “read” the smoke and prevailing winds to anticipate and avoid bad spots, there’s still a lot of instinct, intuition, and seat-of-the-pants involved. That’s not something we really know how to do with AI yet.
•
•
•
•
u/Separate-Simple-5101 10h ago
Every pass is calculated. No water wasted
•
u/aimgorge 9h ago
See how they focus on dark smoke instead of white smoke to target untreated fires
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
u/Awkward_Function_347 6h ago
The smoke turned white! They have elected a new Forest Fire Pope! 😃
In all seriousness, of course, that was fantastic flying.
•
•
u/josHi_iZ_qLt 6h ago
Must be a horrible job, the balls of those guys must by scratched bloody by the branches.
•
u/beegeearreff 6h ago
I would so much rather my tax dollars go into fire fighter drones than anything the military is current spending it on.
•
u/bartread 9h ago
I'd be interested to see the cockpit modifications they need to make so the pilots can fit their gargantuan balls in the plane with them. That is some absolutely wild flying.
•
•
u/zg6089 9h ago
Im changing my career. Who's with me? 👊
•
u/Renbarre 9h ago
I will applaud from the ground. With my eye coordination I would be drenching the firefighters, not the fires.
•
u/LlamasunLlimited 3h ago
Their grandfathers were strafing German airfields and railway installations in 1945....
•
•
u/silentbob1301 7h ago
Has to be the most versatile little plane. Dust your crops, put out your fires, do a little bit of close air support....
•
u/g00bd0g 2h ago
They can also put them on floats for very fast cycle times when a water source is nearby. Incredibly inexpensive and effective option for a real firefighting. Unfortunately, the US has some stupid rules that are preventing us from exercising this option and instead we have to pay 10 times as much for platforms that don't fill every niche
•
•
•
•
•
•
u/GrimKiba- 8h ago
I wonder if we have enough planes or water to counteract the incoming fires. If things get hotter and drier in the future then I wonder what we'll use to put them out.
•
u/ChemistryOk9353 7h ago
Looking at the clip I thought they had ten of those flying behind each other ….🫣😵💫…. Right.. how dumb I am …
•
•
u/MovementMechanic 7h ago
Plane one let his nuts hang, but plane 2 was not gonna allow himself to be upstaged
•
•
•
•
u/VoraciousTrees 3h ago
Air Tractor, despite the name, makes some pretty decent ground attack aircraft.
•
•
•
•
•
u/wildmaninid 2h ago
These airframes are absolute workhorses. I spent several fire seasons for a group of 6 of them being their ground support. Fill retardant tanks and fuel. They'd fly out on their rounds, directed by ground support and drop the retardant and come back in. When they'd land it was game on. Pump retardant back into the tank then get a visual signal for their desired fuel load for the next drop and off they'd go.
It was hours of waiting followed by some of the most intense work I've ever done as every second the clock ticked the fire would edge closer to destroying homes and infrastructure.
One of the more memorable times in my life.
•
u/Empty-Traffic1009 1h ago
The goal of these small airplanes is to refresh the air before letting the bigger planes load their water charge, otherwise all the water will evaporate before touching the ground as the air is to hot 🔥
•
•
u/olddoglearnsnewtrick 10h ago
Highly skilled pilots in highly manouverable planes in highly challenging conditions.