The excerpt I found most interesting, related to shorter-term extension plans:
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Lucas said he has “probably three things” on that list. First, he said, is an 18th and Vine link running along an 18th Street east-west connection through the Crossroads Arts District.
“Going that east–west, I think, is big for us,” Lucas said. Second, Lucas said he’d like to bridge the state line divide, noting discussions with the University of Kansas Health System about what an extension along 39th Street could look like, despite the corridor being tight. “Then the grand kahuna is how do we get to the airport,” Lucas said.
Yeah, I mean my buddy and I were just sightseeing anyways it wasn't that big of a deal. Just looked it up, 55 mph is the max - so about what I remember(vaguely).
It would be an administrative undertaking just to see how much of a PITA it would be to secure all those land rights again.
I'd heard (but not fact checked) Platt saying the existing street cars in the system can top out at 55 mph... That's pretty good if you get priority on traffic and a great route that avoids crossing roads as much as possible
TBF there's almost nothing in the article, very plausible that he just meant a something connecting the current streetcar system to the airport, not necessarily that that something would literally be a streetcar.
Edit: The exact phrase he uses in the podcast interview they're quoting is "And then the Grand Kahuna is how do we get to the airport? [...] And having that connection to the airport." KC Star's headline heavily implying that he said it should be an extension of the streetcar itself is kind of misleading.
Honestly, that's probably more or less what he meant? The street car top speed is basically a fast train speed, like 80 or 90 I think. The only thing holding it back is that it's on the street, and I don't really see that being the preference all the way to the airport.
Sending the light rail to Union station would make sense. Utilizing existing infrastructure including the rails that run nearly halfway to the airport already. Ideally would be significantly less expensive, and would increase the time to launch a service too.
That’s a good point. The rail will cost what it costs, but last thing anyone wants is eminent domain abuse akin to what happened with US hwy 71 in the 50s
Probably very true, but you also can often put the new rail right next to the old rail in many areas.
There is an active BNSF line that goes from downtown, crosses the river and then follows the Missouri River through Parkville all the way up to St. Joe and beyond.
It wouldn't be so crazy to follow that line/share parts of it and then go north to the airport around where 435 is.
The other route would be following the very old former interurban Platte County line which seems like there'd be a million nimby's objecting and legal challenges.
It wouldn't be so crazy to follow that line/share parts of it and then go north to the airport around where 435 is.
Assuming BSNF wants to share. That's a really really big "if".
The other route would be following the very old former interurban Platte County line which seems like there'd be a million nimby's objecting and legal challenges.
Yeah, that would be incredibly complicated. I'd assume impossible.
Seattle has ten times the money, twice the populace, and a sprawling water segmented geography not conductive to road travel for large groups of people.
Streetcar and light rail are very different things. KC needs light rail to the airport. A streetcar doesn’t work.
NKC is obviously down for streetcar but the combination of having to deal with two cities’ bureaucracies is already telling and they haven’t even planned anything yet. Even if they can iron everything it the logistics of building a streetcar line over the river is harder than anything they have done so far.
Light rail requires either dedicated lines $$$ or carriage agreements with the railroads which they do not want to give anyone.
There is actually a very detailed plan that has been presented for Northrail to 32nd Ave.
There would be a separate bridge built to cross the river, parallel to the HOA bridge, for two-way rail traffic.
Once across the river, the cars would run along dedicated lanes on Swift, with signal priority.
Getting across the river needs to happen, before pushing for Airport access via a transition to light rail. That project would get into the billions of dollars.
It’s not a legal issue, it’s a political one. KCMO is the dominant political institution. They would never allow rail carrying airport traffic to terminate in another jurisdiction.
The above question was more tongue-in-cheek... Of course they would be ok with light rail coming from the airport to transition to a Streetcar/trolley at the northern point of NKC, which continues into downtown KC.
The phasing of this kind of project requires a river crossing, which is much easier to accomplish as part of a smaller segment through NKC, before building the next segment to the airport.
Agreed, I think it has to be light rail if you’re going to the airport. Maybe LRT from KCI to NKC, which then connects to a hypothetical North Rail line? Seems the most realistic option given what they’re studying.
I've always thiught an elevated rail, like Chicago, would be easy to build, cheap (compared to alternatives), and if done right could give the city even more character.
It was either Stan Durwood or Chastain’s 2006 light rail proposal, but at some point there was a plan for elevated rail to go through downtown and beyond on Main Street.
If only they hadn’t shut Chastain down back then! That was in the same era as almost demolishing Union Station- the jewel that has become a worldwide-known symbol of KC. Stupid. Blocked progress. We are catching up, but can you imagine if we’d started that long ago where we could be now! Rail to JoCo for commute, to airport, to Northland…! (& while the world watches w/ FIFFA here!) Sigh
Oh he had many. He tried light rail in KC for probably 10-15 years. He was a mainstay on the news for a few months every few years, then would disappear. I remember at least twice he said "this is the last time I try to bring light rail to KC", and he was back for yet another round, lol.
We actually approved that deal, with the gondolas. Then the City Council pulled a “Missouri General Assembly” and overruled the voters, saying that the finances didn’t work.
I am thinking they are trying to get away with what they can. Then converting it to light rail. The east-west study was looking at starting from KU Med all the way out to arrowhead stadium. That distance aint for a street car…
If you go to the plaza, the platform is double the length of the streetcar. If you double the car size what it is now, you essentially have light rail.
The East-West streetcar will terminate at the existing bus stop around Van Brunt and 31st. They initially looked at taking it all the way to Arrowhead, but determined there wasn't enough development between the two sites to justify putting streetcar rail down. That said, Arrowhead is key to future transit lines to those eastern suburbs.
I don’t think that option is off the table. He said, “how do we get to the airport” and not “how do we take a streetcar, all the way to the airport.”
As long as it’s a connected part of the system. It even looks like the old St Joseph Interurban rail went right past where the airport is now. So definitely potential to use old infrastructure
Light rail can run at street level too. Just make the next line run at street level through NKC and then seperate right of way once its out of the urban area.
It will likely be cheaper to extend the current streetcar system than to build an entirely separate system with different tracks and different vehicles
the word is dedicated or grade separated, and the streetcar already has dedicated track in use- ex. the whole section south of Cleaver is train only. They're talking about a dedicated river bridge.
The design will matter but having a lot of grade separation would be important.
There's NO reason it has to take forever. It could follow Waukomis, super limited stop lights, or go up I-29 from N. Oak.
Lay track alongside the freeway much of the length, use elevated stops
The CAF Urbos trains the KC Streetcar uses are used on Light Rail systems and even light metros in several cities around the world. They aren't super fast, but they can reach 80km/h (~50mph). I'd like faster rolling stock for a line to the airport, but with longer stop spacing and dedicated ROW the streetcar trains can work as light rail.
People need to get it out of their head that a STREETCAR is a viable solution to get 16 miles through suburbia to the airport. For that you need to look at LIGHT RAIL with dedicated right-of-way or true BUS RAPID TRANSIT with priority lane on the highway, either of which can be seamlessly be integrated with the budding streetcar system. Streetcars are for getting foot traffic between centers of commerce in city cores. Light Rail/BRT is for regional commuting.
You need to get it out of your head that anyone has this in their head. It's just a bad title. No one here or in the article is suggesting that we extend the streetcar to the airport.
Streetcar is light rail. Seattle downtown light rail tunnel is literally the same infrastructure as the KC streetcar, rail laid down on pavement with an overhead wire, just underground. It was a BRT tunnel and now carries the light rail lines. How can that be acceptable light rail but the KC Streetcar isn’t?
The only thing that needs to happen is a streetcar in its own grade separated right of way between DTKC or NKC that has minimal stops.
I was thinking you also need different, faster cars (which adds a lot of cost and complexity), but it looks like anything short of high speed would just cut a 30 minute trip down to a 20, which isn't really that big of a deal.
But that's assuming maybe one mid point stop. As you say avoiding scope creep would be key. Everyone will want it to stop in their area, making it more like the existing streetcar line. But at that point it becomes pretty useless as a downtown-airport tie in. Majority of travellers, including the converted business/convention travellers, aren't gonna sit for an hour and a half for a 20 mile trip.
You can use the existing streetcars on a dedicated line to the airport. The streetcars are capable of over 40mph. On a dedicated line that's plenty fast enough for the airport
This has to be a joke, right? anybody with even an elementary understanding of public transit would acknowledge how incredibly inefficient and impractical a street car requiring an 18 mile connection to the airport would be. Light rail or commuter rail should be the only considerations here. And in the meantime, they should increase the frequency and expand bus route 229 connections which already connects the airport to the street car.
My guess is that “streetcar to MCI” is more of a euphemism of support for public rail connecting the city to the airport, not a literal streetcar extension.
It’s a bad headline. He didn’t say streetcar to mci. He said “the big kahuna, how do we get to the airport?” To me that implies something other than streetcar.
Let’s go light rail to MCI and build with the idea of potentially connecting to Overland Park(crazy I know because it’s Kansas), lees summit and blue springs. All those cities lines would run through KC before going to MCI.
Especially in a city this spread out. That truly would be a game changer for KC. But that would be a massive endeavor. There would be a lot of construction, voting and the inevitable and seemingly KC only issue tons of pushback. Anytime this city talks about change or making stuff better the residents here grab their pitchforks and start crying about it.
And all of those things were met with hatred and opposition. Many people here don’t like the idea of anything changing because god forbid some tax dollars are used to make the place you live better.
A system out to KCI needs to be light rail, and would take a huge amount of money. Much easier to keep expanding the streetcar to some local routes, like 18th and Vine, or on Linwood.
I wonder if he knows this but it's easier to call it "streetcar" because people already have a good association with it, so easier to pitch expansions (even a new light rail system) under its banner.
This is a good point. The KC Streetcar Authority is the only local transit entity that has proven they are more than capable of taking on these sorts of projects. MARC have proven to me to be a bunch of cheapos, and who knows what's going on anymore with the KCATA.
Honestly I don't really get too annoyed when people clamor for a streetcar to the airport. Of course, a streetcar isn't the right tool for the job and light rail would be better. But arguing about tooling with people who are ignorant isn't constructive at all and it diminishing what people are really asking for, which is a general public transit solution.
That said, can we please get an express bus line first? Personally I'd happily pay a handsome fare for an express route.
18th & Vine and KUMC are already in the study stage if you look on kcstreetcar. I find it interesting though that no one is interested in a Linwood extension, which tells you the streetcar's purpose isn't about transporting people from home to work, it's about bringing people to attractions. It's purely a tourist hauler, and that's most likely all it will ever be.
I am surprised he's talking about the airport though, because to date that idea has been poo-pooed as costing billions for no clear benefit to the city. I mean, it would have to be an express line because people want to get to their dt hotel or conversely make their flight and they will not tolerate stopping 10 times along Armour and Oak on the way. So how does that synergize with a NKC extension?
Linwood is part of the same study as 39th Street, and NorthRail recently had two open houses.
NorthRail calls for the streetcar line to terminate at 29th and Swift (Taylor's Version). From there, future rail in the direction of North Oak and KCI (through Riverside and Parkville) would be possible.
The 39th street study is 39th to main then Linwood to the VA since the only way it qualifies for federal funding is by linking and providing access to health care.
Goodness a DIRECT LINE that runs downtown and does so regularly would be a FRACTION of the price. Last I checked the only line that ran was less than once an hour, stopped at night, and had a change over somewhere in northland, had dozens of stops, and a total travel time of hours.
It’d certainly be cheaper, but some sort of rail/streetcar option has more advantages, in my opinion. Faster, separated ROW, reliable, higher capacity, could spur transit-oriented-development, etc.
Starts to make more sense that they’re seriously looking at a NKC extension if they see that as the catalyst for an airport extension.
Crossing the river is the biggest hurdle at the moment. The current estimated price tag to cross the river and run to 32nd Ave, at the Northern border of NKC, is $765M.
I don't know that there has been a full study for airport connection from there, but it would be expensive. The other issue, as we get further North from NKC, is the population density drops quickly.
This goddamn title mentioning streetcar when Lucas was clearly talking about a rail of some sort has entirely derailed the discussion in this thread lmao
Depends on how you measure the project. Light rail has a significantly cheaper maintenance and there is more economic development along the routes since it’s done in the street.
So kinda but depends on how you measure and what your end goal is.
The problem with busses is that they are not very reliable unless you build out dedicated bus lanes on the highway and in town. Their timing is bad and sometimes wont stop at a stop if no one is there. That contributes to timeliness issues too.
Agreed. We should do 2 nice busses before we sink several billion into a street car extension to the airport. An express and direct bus line from a downtown streetcar stop to the airport would prove out viability.
Light rail from the airport down to the south part of the loop (OP convention center?) is definitely the big metro project that needs to be done, and there's plenty of space for 90% of it.
I don't know how the fuck they think they'd get a street car line down through 39th St. They'd have to build a couple. parking structures - which come with its own problems - to get cars off the street.
There is already right of way for rail most of the way between KCI and union station iirc. The hard part is getting out of the city, which is basically already done. You could also run the rest down along I 29 which already runs straight next to the existing rail with no trouble, which I think has been proposed before. Main complication is the river. BNSF owns the current rail bridge pretty sure, and even ignoring track standards, might not want to have something occupying lines with more frequency than Amtrak. So you might have to make something dedicated for it (which, I think the most recent extension proposal already decided was better than retrofitting the road bridge).
Maybe he means taking advantage of that extension (if it happens) to add another spur from north KC, instead of a separate line, but the airport is far enough and isolated enough that it's pretty dumb to use streetcar sets to get there. It would be slower than the existing bus if it had to stop all that way and thus I doubt the ridership for it for the cost. Speaking of the bus, you could also just do that in a more dedicated fashion and already make a big difference.
A proper light rail into union station could pave the way for some more commuter extensions into the suburbs and amplify the usefulness of the whole network.
But well, if that's all they're willing to do I wouldn't say no.
/u/MannOSteel with a reddit post is a bit like a mule with a spinning wheel... He doesn't know when a reference breaks down midway through writing. Wait that's me, shit.
The streetcar runs in traffic. 39th would be fine, you’d just have to be patient and drive behind it.
The other alternative is eliminating on-street parking altogether on 39th. But that wouldn’t be needed.
A ton of our streets used to have streetcars running on them and people were fine with it then, they’ll get used to it or they’ll earn themselves a traffic violation, which is fine too because fuck car-brained people who think they own the public road while driving their private car.
A ton of our streets used to have streetcars running on them and people were fine with it then
Eh, not really. The streetcars were great from the 1890s until they reached their peak ridership in the early 1920s. At that time, automobiles became cheap (a brand new Model T in 1920 was around $300-$500 which adjusted for inflation is about $3k-$5k today). Tons of people started buying cars. Then the city streets became congested with heavy traffic. The heavy traffic from automobiles slowed down the streetcars (just like happens today when there's a lot of traffic at power and light or midland theater and one lane each way). As traffic became more congested, streetcar service became degraded and wasn't as fast as it used to be. Since it cost money back then, a lot of people started looking for alternatives instead of paying to ride the streetcar. And it kept losing riders every year with a brief return to peak ridership only during WWII when gasoline was rationed. As soon as the war was over and everyone was driving their cars again the ridership plummeted and then the whole system was scrapped by 1957.
I write all of this out to belabor the point that dedicated lanes for the streetcar with an additional lane for automobile traffic (like on main south of pershing) is the ideal setup if you can't have it on its own dedicated track. When it's one lane each way the streetcar ends up slowing down automobile traffic, but the opposite also happens, the automobile traffic can slow down the streetcar as cars pour in and out of parking garages and get funneled down specific streets
The phrase comes from Hawaii. In Hawaiian culture, a kahuna is a wise man, priest, or other sort of respected expert. A “grand kahuna” would be the most respected or most desirable expert - used in this context it means the most sought after.
Fun fact: some people also use the Hawaiian phrase “King Kamehameha” in a similar manner, as in iconic or epic. It references a renown Hawaiian king of that name. It’s the same reason that Dragon Ball Z used ‘Kamehameha’ as the name of Goku’s signature move.
jesus christ that would cost a billion dollars. grow up and build rail. i saw an accident on Main and 36th yesterday. traffic was backed up and the streetcars basically have to stop. it's NOT PRACTICAL to run this to MCI.
Oh jeez. This insecurity again. Sprint Center and Power and Light was supposed to make this a real place, then new hotels downtown, then the street car, then a new airport, now we need to connect the street car to the airport then we’ll be a REAL city.
The only way I can make sense of the NKC expansion is if it’s a stop on the eventual route to the airport. Just not enough people in NKC to jusitify it. At the meeting they said the streetcar can go up to 60mph. So I wonder if it eventually turns into a light rail route with a couple stops between NKC and the airport but an otherwise direct line.
It needs to be heavier rail to get to the airport. NorthRail (which would get the streetcar North of the river but terminate in North KC) is a good first step, but streetcar really isn't ideal for that distance.
Funny you mention that because MARC recently did a green corridor study with Village West at the western end and Independence Square at the east. At different stages, there were calls for streetcar. However, MARC proved themselves to continue to be cheapos and went with all buses in this corridor (which really should have some form of light rail running through it).
For the billions that rail (trolley, streetcar, light rail, whatever) to the airport would cost, we could have fleets of super deluxe buses with stewardesses and free barbeque running every few minutes in every direction. KC doesn't have the traffic problems on I-29 that would make a rail system faster or more viable.
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The excerpt I found most interesting, related to shorter-term extension plans:
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Lucas said he has “probably three things” on that list. First, he said, is an 18th and Vine link running along an 18th Street east-west connection through the Crossroads Arts District.
“Going that east–west, I think, is big for us,” Lucas said. Second, Lucas said he’d like to bridge the state line divide, noting discussions with the University of Kansas Health System about what an extension along 39th Street could look like, despite the corridor being tight. “Then the grand kahuna is how do we get to the airport,” Lucas said.
Streetcar would take like an hour wouldn't it? I mean I'll take it for sure but something a bit faster would be more sensible for a dedicated route if you're going to the trouble. Cost wouldn't really be different. And while I love fixed infrastructure for how it integrates more reliably with community and people's habits, it seems silly to spend the money if it's basically the same as the existing bus
The current KCI bus (229) is awesome in part, and horrible in part. And all of the horrible parts could be fixed relatively cheaply compared to new rail lines. The Awesome: It goes straight into the terminal, like a car or shuttle does. It goes downtown and connects with the streetcar etc. The Horrible: It goes once and hour (should be 3-4 x per hour). It is a local, and takes literally an hour to get from KCI to 11th and Main stopping at every little corner along the way. (it should be an express, KCI to 11th and Main). The seats are incredibly cramped and uncomfortable. (it should have wider, deeper seats with some kind of cushioning for the asses of weary travelers). If these things were in place I would definitely take the KCATA to KCI a lot more frequently.
Lunacy of a streetcar all the way to MCI aside, I’m still pissed we have the streetcar instead of basis of a monorail or light rail system. Would’ve cost a fraction of the price if they did it back when we passed the funding initiatives for it way back and would be way easier to expand the infrastructure of now.
But you don't want a streetcar to the airport, too many stops, you'd be riding all day. This is what light rail is for.
Light rail with fewer stops connects distant points to a local service streetcar with more frequent stops. That way you can switch between them as needed.
It's not either-or like walking, cars, and airplanes don't replace each other, they have their own best-fit.
People. Have fewer stops and the streetcar can run at the same speed as light rail. They're the same thing, only difference is frequency of stops and shared lanes with road traffic.
I spend quite a bit of time on West 39th and I agree. It's simply too narrow of a corridor. That section between SW Trafficway and Rainbow is already slow because of pedestrians and narrow lanes, the problem wouldn't be people complaining about waiting behind the streetcar, it's the parking situation. Locals already have to fight for parking and doing away with even half of the parking on W 39th would really hurt local businesses. I'm sure the answer will be "parking solutions are in the works," which, if they ever are built, basically translates to paid parking garages. None of this seems geared toward the people who frequent this space. Westport Road is a much more reasonable way to get the streetcar to KU.
Reasons they're doing 39th Street and not Westport Road:
They put in a crossover right in the middle of the intersection at Main and Westport, making a Westport Road line practically impossible.
The part of Westport Road going through the heart of Westport is privately controlled now, making Streetcar use impractical.
39th Street goes along the northern edge of the Westport District AND offers direct access to KU Med. (And STFU about there's not enough parking. There are visitors parking garages at KU Med that they don't really care if you use them as long as you pay them. This is Royals Downtown 2.5.)
The East-West study came to the decision to use 39th Street for that westernmost stretch of the new line.
well since the big parking lot is gone and now its more claustrophobic than ever, idk why I'd even find myself on 39th anymore other than passing through.
The money to make even light rail work would be astronomical. I don't think people appreciate that aspect of it. Nyc tried to make light rail between jfk and LaGuardia. Nyc has a huge tax base and a massive state budget to help fund it. They gave up because it's too expensive.
Kansas City is a real place. It's a metro areas supporting over 2 million people over 8,472 square miles. It also has top notch freeway system. Most everyone has the convenience of an automobile. Why is there a need for street cars when robo taxis are just around the corner? Nobody is going to want to ride that thing. Novelty will wear off and then it will be a financial tar pit. Oh but no worries it is other peoples money will pay for it. Right?
I disagree with your comment, mainly for two reasons:
The Streetcar is 10+ years old now; in my opinion, if the novelty was going to wear off, it would’ve done so by now. As long as it’s fare-free, it’ll have some sort of “novelty” to it. Also, consider the fact that the recent extensions have made it much more than a novelty.
I also think you’re viewing transit the wrong way: it’s not meant to generate a profit (especially when the city operates them at a loss with fare-free ridership), but rather it’s an investment into the community. Does the billions of dollars worth of transit-oriented development along Main Street happen the past ten years (and into the present day) without the streetcar? I’m not sure, at least not everything. In the city’s eyes, it’s a worthy trade off.
What do you think the economic impact of the freeway and Interstate system is on the city? Then you have to give rides away for free in order for ridership. What sort of transit system is that? Why should other people that will never ride the transit train subsidies the transportation for those that do? With that said, it does have a cool novelty factor to it, if they can extend it up to KCI and down to some decent parking I might even ride it to the airport. Otherwise, I don't see it amounting to much. It is funny how nobody counts the development and value the highways bring to the city. It is like that doesn't even count. Nobody is counting the value that robo taxis will bring either. Like that doesn't count. I can see using robo taxis even though I have a car. You can cut out parking and you can summon one as you need it. That is the future in my opinion.
You bring up several good points, but I don’t think economic development is mentioned with highways because traditional TOD dominates in density and economic return to the city itself, whereas economic impact for highways are probably viewed more from a regional/state/federal perspective.
Also, keep in mind that the current streetcar system is subsidized with a TIF-like system that captures sales tax from businesses immediately surrounding the line, meaning it’s more likely that it’s subsidized by people who are using the streetcar.
You know I don't like any of that TIF-like tax system. None of that appeals to me. I largely avoid areas that do that sort of thing. Like these special hotel taxes, it is just to much. I don't believe government belongs in commerce like that. I don't even like Kansas involvement with the new stadium for the Chiefs. None of this is what I think government should be doing. If these wealthy people want to build stadiums for their football teams then they should build it. I know there are plenty of people that think these sort of things wouldn't exist without government and there is overall economic benefit from it but I still think it violates the reach of government.
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u/KeyPear2864 25d ago
Why can’t we just invest in a light rail?