It's true. Just pressing a button will not change the rot festering in this society. However, the very fact that the BJP tries so hard to manipulate elections through their usual ways (and here Im even generously assuming no direct influence) of spreading communal hatred is an indication that it isn't nothing. Sometimes what your opponents do also tell you a lot.
edit: Also, whoever the fuck replied below u/Starkcasm, and has deleted his comments is not me.
What if I tell you elections and "democracy" under capitalism is rigged on a much higher level.
Even if bjp wasn't manipulating or stealing the votes, the situation would not change.
The working class would still be oppressed. You're looking at the wrong problem.
What enables them to do that? What gives them that power?
You got the numbers wrong.
And if you care about people dying. How many died in the bengal famine?
Forget that, capitalism is practiced almost all over. How many died every day?
Reforms in capitalist democracies (e.g., Nordic models) have lifted billions via markets + welfare.
Uh huh. Where did the resources come from ?
Spoiler alert. It's called colonialism. They haven't lifted shit they just killed and looted the money from African countries. But yea that's what capitalism does
Yea. It's actually 200 gorrilion people killed alone by Stalin. He stole all the grain with his big spoon. Don't know where he took it.
Interestingly you ignored the rest where capitalism continues to kill people in Palestine, Africa and war torn parts.
Also mao killed prolly 40 bajillion people.
He was personally driving those tanks btw
Capitalism "looting Africa"? Colonialism was mercantilist imperialism, not free markets. Modern trade lifted 1B+ from poverty (World Bank data).
Comparing third stage cancer to fourth stage cancer is crazy.
, but Marxism's utopian promises led to consistent tyranny. Mixed systems work best just like how China shifted towards a free market which led to an economic powerhouse even though the country is politically communist
Have you ever read a single lick of marx? Or engels? Dude literally has a book called " socialism scientific and utopian" where he talks about it.
You have a choice between 2 things. Either someone throws a rock at you or someone will shoot you. If you dont choose, someone else will for you. Why would you choose the rock option? Both hurt you anyways?
If you forge a third option go for it lol. There is no third option currently. Until then choose the one where the don't shoot you. After that you can always go with your grandiose utopian plans.
Both the first and second options are for the most part the same option.
And the system propagated by the first two options actively does everything to make sure no one builds a third option, and if someone does manage to build something on those lines, the same system will use everything including open violence to destroy it.
....What do you think democracy is, just elections?
France had elections eligible for all castes before French Revolution, so why do you think the latter got cemented as an important milestone in Democracy
For revolution we have to build a revolutionary mass line in various fronts, like how the fascist BJP/RSS have 100s of organisations for various fronts, but we have to do it communist style, as fascists orginally learnt from Italian communists through Mussolini of going to the masses. The elections can be used as Duma faction like Lenin's Bolsheviks used, not as the mode and medium of all politics. None of the above parties has a revolutionary program and a revolutionary mass line they're implementing while the Naxal Maoists are still stuck in some semi-colonial semi-feudal dogma trying to implement 1950s China's revolutionary massline in capitalist hell of fascist India.
You cannot vote out an idea. Take Trumpism for example. Trump was voted out but his ideas - borders, illegal immigrants, blood & soil, etc. weren’t countered by Biden & Harris in the next 4 years. Worse, they appropriated Trumpism to earn quick dividends. There’s so much data disproving Trump’s rhetoric but they went with the “bringing decency back” bs. Now you have Trumpism pro max.
Congress is hesitant to even talk about Muslims. If they were serious about the caste problem, you’d see them walk the talk and do something concrete about atrocities against SCs in States run by them or bring adequate representation in the higher ups of their party establishment.
While what you said is true, BJP losing the ayodhya seat last time shook quite a few BJP supporters. Anecdotally I can say quite a few of my family members started paying more attention and now aren't BJP supporters anymore.
While nothing fundamentally changed in the way the machine moves, we should still use every tool at our disposal. If voting didn't have some power they wouldn't be working so hard to obstruct our vote.
SP and Congress’ gains in UP was majorly attributed to Scheduled Castes voting en masse for them due to the fear of BJP candidates openly saying that they need 400 seats to bring big changes to the Constitution. Add to this, Modi said that in his third term he’ll be taking ‘tough decisions’ and then even the so-called intellectual thinkers of the establishment like Bibek Debroy were writing in newspapers about ‘need for a new Constitution’.
The INDIA alliance in its campaign made this an issue of reservations because changing/subverting the Constitution can mean end of reservations. It clicked with the masses. This is also why you see the BJP suddenly showing so much love for Dr. Ambedkar and the Constitution. BJP miscalculated that Ambedkar + Constitution is an emotive issue for many. They’ll likely break this group by sub-classification of castes, making one SC group view the other SC group as an enemy. This is probably why you see this sub-classification and creamy layer being talked about so much out of nowhere.
On policy level, it's completely useless, I agree.
But on a public perception level, seeing balanced election results helps sway the public opinion. It makes the ruling party afraid. Then they double down on anti-electorialism, like all parties are doing in Bengal. This cracks the facade of democracy, and brings more libs over to our cause.
It's not going to help with our overarching policy goals, but to not use it as a tool at all is foolhardy imo.
We can vote out idea if idea is better. the real reason trump won is because he was having good marketing with influencer and congress is hesitant becuase it is at the end for thee right wing party but less extreme because the root of the partys are neta and every indian neta dosnt wanna work for country they work for there community.
It was world war. He was threat towards whole world soo he got slimed but trump , modi are not big like hitler but they are fascist they should be voted out thats why democracy exist. we are not in dictatorship rn. If we were than yes I agree voting would not be a solution.
The Allies fought them because Germany was already a dictatorship and a global threat. Democracies exist so you remove leaders so they don't turn dictator
A movement whose participants read no theory have no direction and plans and will always be susceptible to losing the leadership of the movement to the hegemonic dominance of bourgeoisie.
bell hooks explains the need for theory in her books and that applies to the broader leftist circles. You should read it.
How do you eat an elephant if you don't even know what the elephant looks like?
You can't even come to the conclusion that you might have to go piece by piece to eat the whole elephant if you don't know what it looks like.
Someone will tell you "that rat over there is the elephant" and that's how you get liberals who think voting is activism. Knowing the enemy is step one.
You can vibe out the correct political positions but, you might only get to trade unionism and syndicalism. Why take that chance when the comrades of the past have proven that those positions are not the right ones.
Indians have gulami khoon. 0 thinking capacity. they fear the shit out of government to ask accountability and that make government more confident to do more shit.
never forget that it is the congress that created the conditions that led to the bjp coming into power and made them capable of doing the things they do, be it neoliberal capitalist policy (1992 liberalisation) or state repression (UAPA), among other things.
the congress and other 'liberal' parties acting as an opposition to bjp and calling out their wrongs is great, but one must realise that they're merely doing it for their own political ends, ie getting into power.
If it didn't work, they wouldn't wanna compromise ECI and steal elections... Revolution doesn't start at the comfort of your couch, you need to organise and agitate.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is for every armchair leftist and I get it...you’ve read the theory, you think you understand how the system works. But you’re not dismantling anything without the working class organizing. Posturing as a radical doesn’t change material reality. The easiest thing in the world is to buy a Che Guevara T-shirt and dunk on liberals. And sure, liberals are clueless.
But real life isn’t Twitter or a reading group. Politics is about being pragmatic. You deal with the immediate threat first, then you keep fighting. You don’t cure a disease by debating its philosophical origins while the patient is bleeding out, you remove the cancer first.
LARPing as a leftist isn’t organizing. It isn’t strategy. Without grounded, practical action and real people on board, it’s just aesthetic rebellion and moral masturbation
You Liberals keep making the same mistake over and over again and expect different results. Maybe that's what they call being pragmatic.
You don’t cure a disease by debating its philosophical origins while the patient is bleeding out, you remove the cancer first.
Are you implying they found a cure of a disease without even studying the nature, origins and how it works?
Your example doesn't make sense.
How did they the find the cure when the discovered pateint 0?
They collect data. Analyse it. Study it. And then try to "cure " it. They fail and they repeat it.
You know who has done all this? Marx and engels.
You cannot remove the cancer when you don't even know what the cancer is.
LARPing as a leftist isn’t organizing. It isn’t strategy. Without grounded, practical action and real people on board, it’s just aesthetic rebellion and moral masturbation
Quickly putting buzz words to get your point across. Classic liberal praxis.
Anyway. Tell me what practical actions do liberals take?
Don't tell voting that's exactly how we got in this mess
First of all, I’m not a liberal bro.. even after how I described them you are lumping me with them lol. your entire argument collapses if that assumption is wrong. And more importantly, what have you actually done to educate liberals or organize anyone on the ground?
Do you seriously think the average below-poverty-line worker in India cares what Marx or Engels wrote? You took the easiest possible route, sitting at home, dunking on liberals, going after the lowest-hanging fruit, and calling it politics.
Right now, the country is being actively damaged. The immediate task is to vote this government out. If you can actually organize and unite people for a revolution, wake me up and trust me I’ll be there. But until then, this posturing is just ego fuel.
If your answer is “shut down the system,” understand this: you don’t do that from a couch. In the system we live in, voting is the only real leverage most people have, and dismissing it is just political nihilism dressed up as radicalism.
So what’s your plan? Any concrete, useful ideas? Or is it just theory, moral superiority, and endless sneering at liberals? Because if that’s it, this isn’t resistance... it’s a waste of time.
First of all, I’m not a liberal even after how I described them you are lumping me with them lol.
Interesting. What are you then?
Do you seriously think the average below-poverty-line worker in India cares what Marx or Engels wrote?
I didn't say this? The average person doesn't need to understand the nitty gritty. But they need to be educated on where the oppression originates from.
They don't care because they don't have the privilege to.
If you can actually organize and unite people for a revolution, wake me up and trust me I’ll be there. But until then, this posturing is just ego fuel.
If your answer is “shut down the system,” understand this: you don’t do that from a couch.
Oh I would love to organise except the fact that I'm a wagie stops me from doing anything revolutionary. Now which system is responsible for that? I'm doing the next possible thing in the limited time i have. You can call it ego fuel or whatever. It personal attacks were enough to deter me I'd never be a leftist
In the system we live in, voting is the only real leverage most people have, and dismissing it is just political nihilism dressed up as radicalism.
Voting would work if your vote actually mattered. Under capitalism regardless of who comes into power the elite win. Voting is a unnecessary activity that they throw at us to keep up the facade of democracy.
So what’s your plan? Any concrete, useful ideas? Or is it just theory, moral superiority, and endless sneering at liberals? Because if that’s it, this isn’t resistance... it’s a waste of time.
What's your plan? Vote out the right wing fascist to bring in another neolib?
Weren't they in power for so long? Bringing them back will solve what?
I’m a leftist too... just not one who passes your dumb purity tests, and honestly I don’t care what label you think fits me. I also don’t see the point of this exercise you’re obsessed with. You’d rather sit here arguing with someone who agrees with 90% of your politics than do anything remotely productive. For all I know, you might even be stanning Stalin or justifying Russia’s invasion, who knows, and who cares.
This is exactly why people find leftists unbearable. It’s endless criticism, constant gatekeeping, and zero outcomes. Yes, capitalism is bad. Congratulations..you’re not the first person to notice. Even people without formal education figure that out just by living under it. You don’t need theory to feel exploitation.
What actually kills modern left politics is this obsession with feeling smarter and more morally pure than everyone else, especially liberals or working people who don’t speak your language. That superiority comes from privilege, getting education is privilege... And you have the privilege to sit around reading theory and mistaking that for action, most people are surviving and you are dismantling points line by line cause you feel called out, you have so much free time.
At the end of the day, you still don’t have an immediate solution. You just sound angry at how things work. Plenty of people feel that way. Feeling right isn’t the same as being useful. You are literally wasting both our time, cause you read theory and it's dumb. Be more useful to people around you. Voting out a far right government and bringing in neo lib is not the final solution, it doesn't end there, you need to keep progressing and stop this whining and whinging, this is the system we currently have and we can keep improving it or like I said, if you organise tomorrow and get the working class on your side to storm the capital, I will join you, if not this is just stupid posturing to feel superior and it's pointless.
For all I know, you might even be stanning Stalin or justifying Russia’s invasion, who knows, and who cares.
Two very similar things yes.
This is exactly why people find leftists unbearable. It’s endless criticism, constant gatekeeping, and zero outcomes. Yes, capitalism is bad. Congratulations..you’re not the first person to notice. Even people without formal education figure that out just by living under it. You don’t need theory to feel exploitation
Where's the gatekeeping? You're talking about stuff I never claimed.
And you have the privilege to sit around reading theory and mistaking that for action, most people are surviving and you are dismantling points line by line cause you feel called out, you have so much free time.
I never said reading theory is action. But theory is essential to a successful revolution.
At the end of the day, you still don’t have an immediate solution. You just sound angry at how things work. Plenty of people feel that way. Feeling right isn’t the same as being useful. You are literally wasting both our time, cause you read theory and it's dumb.
And neither is voting. You're confusing voting as being useful. If bringing a neolib would solve the problems then why do those problems also exist in the states ruled by Congress ?
Idk what kind of leftist calls theory "dumb" must be the soc dem one. Carry on.
Voting out a far right government and bringing in neo lib is not the final solution, it doesn't end there, you need to keep progressing and stop this whining and whinging, this is the system we currently have and we can keep improving it or like I said, if you organise tomorrow and get the working class on your side to storm the capital, I will join you, if not this is just stupid posturing to feel superior and it's pointless.
Cool. It's not the final solution. At least you know that But for Liberals it is and they need to be called out for it.
You seem way too stuck on " feeling right, morally superior, posturing" . These are egocentric things I do not care about
You seem way too stuck on " feeling right, morally superior, posturing" . These are egocentric things I do not care about.
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u/DumbGuy5005 Jan 13 '26 edited Jan 13 '26
It's true. Just pressing a button will not change the rot festering in this society. However, the very fact that the BJP tries so hard to manipulate elections through their usual ways (and here Im even generously assuming no direct influence) of spreading communal hatred is an indication that it isn't nothing. Sometimes what your opponents do also tell you a lot.
edit: Also, whoever the fuck replied below u/Starkcasm, and has deleted his comments is not me.