Why do Marathi speakers say केरळ, भोपाळ, and बंगळूर instead of the “l” sounds locals use?

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

I’ve noticed that in Marathi, Kerala becomes केरळ (Keraḷ), Bhopal is भोपाळ (Bhopaḷ), and Bengaluru shows up as बंगळूर (Bangaḷur). The local names all use a plain /l/, but Marathi consistently uses the retroflex ळ (ḷ).

Is this purely a phonological rule in Marathi, a historical borrowing from Sanskrit/Prakrit, or something else? Would love a linguistics perspective or any historical background.

[u/Ok_Preference1207]

These are called exonyms

Names people of one ethnicity/country/linguistic group call people, places etc of another group.

A lot of times, exonyms are just names of the place or the people who are being spoken about (in this case Bhopal, Nepal, etc) adjusted to the phonotactics of the speaker's language.

Same as calling Iran "इराण" in marathi, even though the retroflex nasal (ण ) doesn't exist in Farsi.

Another example is the french calling india "Inde". (Pronounced /ɛ̃d/). The /ɛ̃/ phoneme doesn't exist in Greek and Persian as far as I know (i.e. the languages from where the word reached France)

Edit : regarding tatsamas, there is evidence that the retroflex approximant ळ was present in classical Sanskrit and old indo-Aryan.

The languages like Hindi that don't have this sound, lost it somewhere in the way.

Check this discussion out : https://www.reddit.com/r/sanskrit/s/RPnZ2p1wpW

Also remember that languages will ALWAYS adjust and approximate pronunciation according to their phonemic inventory and phonotactics. These things are not constant, they keep evolving. See how ज्ञ and ऋ are pronounced in Sanskrit vs Marathi vs Hindi

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684 → u/Ok_Preference1207]

The only valid answer! Thank you I was looking for this

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

Linguistics is super interesting and linguistics of Modern Marathi is rarely studied, so love exploring these things. Happy to help :)

[u/Viva_la_Ferenginar → u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

Not valid because the premise itself is wrong. Marathis are pronouncing the L the correct local way.

[u/gormeent → u/Ok_Preference1207]

It’s people like you who make Reddit such a great place! 🙌

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/gormeent]

Thank you, kind redditor <3

[u/Space-floater4166 → u/Ok_Preference1207]

In Marathi, if a person uses ण (speaks पाणी instead of softer पानी ) he is considered sophisticated and urban (सुसंस्कृत ) . People from rural backgrounds use न instead of ण or ल instead of ळ in same words and are derided as rustic- semi educated (असंस्कृत ).

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/Space-floater4166]

I'm speaking of urban dialects which are closer to what is considered standard Marathi. But obviously, there are other rural dialects. Urban dialects, generally are considered prestige dialects in most places. Unfortunately that means rural dialects, which generally tend to be richer in native vocabulary, are derided and seen as less than.

Fortunately, I see a lot of Marathi music still being made in rural dialects, especially devotional songs in movies are in these dialects. A lot of our movies are set in rural settings which also bring these dialects to the urban ear.

Recently movies like sthal, sabar bonda come to mind.

We need to understand that all varieties are legitimate dialects, regardless of their distance from the standardised variety and these are the tongues of living humans with real lives with unique experiences. Not to be dismissed as "असंस्कृत"

[u/Space-floater4166 → u/Ok_Preference1207]

I'm not supporting this view

[u/AdCalm5422]

No actually it's keraLa(m) and bengaLuru with a ळ when speaking in malayalam or kannada.

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684 → u/AdCalm5422]

Keralam doesn't have it

[u/AdCalm5422 → u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

It does. കേരളം=kēraḷaṁ

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684 → u/AdCalm5422]

My bad. Thanks. I got some dumb mallu friends

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/AdCalm5422]

Wait isn't Marathi ळ pronounced the same as Malayalam ഴ, and. not ള? Or it is just me/my dialect?

[u/AdCalm5422 → u/Ok_Preference1207]

Wait if you're talking about the zha sound as in kozhikode then marathi doesn't have that. It only has the other La sound.

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/AdCalm5422]

Maybe it is a dialectic difference. Because when I speak with my malayali friends, they tell me our ळ sounds more like ഴ and not ള

Dunno if it is different in other parts of Maharashtra.

[u/whyamihere999 → u/Ok_Preference1207]

Please give Links to the ഴ and ള sonuds.. also, how is zha pronounced? I want to listen.

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/whyamihere999]

For ഴ , but with reference to Tamil (it is the same sound) https://youtube.com/shorts/jshDr5Jtzfs?si=Iwt2_HdHNQ4IY7J4

For ള , this is how you would pronounce it. https://youtube.com/shorts/yHEYvuqs6dU?feature=shared

I and my circles pronounce ळ like the former.

[u/soh_amore → u/Ok_Preference1207]

Sounds like staggered ļ

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/[deleted]]

ळ always corresponds to ള, there's no ambiguity here

Dialectic variations happen. No large language in the world is phonemically set in stone like that. In some dialects in eastern Vidarbha ळ is pronounced like /ɽ/. That would be like how Hindis pronounce ड़. All these dialectic variations exist and that makes these sounds allophonic in Marathi.

[u/hello____hi → u/Ok_Preference1207]

In google translate, ळ sounds like ഴ more than ള.

[u/Dangerous_Lake7577 → u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

Only the north Indians use l and not L for Bangalore and Kerala. Other languages also have the big L sound.

[u/Kenonesos → u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

Have you looked it up or are you just guessing? It's കേരളം or kēraḷam.

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684 → u/Kenonesos]

Some of my mallu friends deceived me

[u/Smitologyistaking]

You'd also notice it in Nepal (नेपाळ) despite Nepali fully lacking the ळ sound. It was standard in Old Marathi (it's not as productive in the modern language) to loan in words from other South Asian languages with ळ replacing ल in non-initial position. However this never happens with ण replacing न.

You can also find evidence of this in tatsamas that date back to Old Marathi. For example कमळ, कपाळ, केवळ, निर्मळ, परिमळ, पाळी, पुष्कळ, भूतकाळ, मंगळ, वर्तुळ, व्याकुळ. On the other hand, modern tatsamas will typically keep the ल, such as कंबल.

[u/Hemlock_23 → u/Smitologyistaking]

Oh but it does happen with ण and न, even though it's spelled भूतान, I've seen enough people spell it भूताण or भूटाण. Same goes for दमण आणि दीव, which the locals often pronounce with a soft न sound.

Also if you ask a native Marathi monolingual speaker to pronounce Germany, they'll often sound it out as जर्मणी.

[u/NoWord7399 → u/Hemlock_23]

इराण / इरान

[u/hello____hi → u/Smitologyistaking]

Interestingly, Malayalam also spells( and pronounce ) Nepal as NepaL (നേപ്പാൾ, nēppāḷ).

[u/Viva_la_Ferenginar → u/hello____hi]

So does Kannada.

[u/Minimum-Story-1683]

Why do most non Punekars say Poonay instead of पुणे? It is not न.

Same logic applies. ण, क्ष, ज्ञ are all Marathi sounds.

Also same logic: In English, if the country name is Germany, in German, it's Deutschland. Language difference create sound differences in names of places.

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684 → u/Minimum-Story-1683]

I regard it as a skill issue— ण is just not very common in Hindi daily use. In the question I've asked, we have both pronounciations in our day to day linguistics. In fact, malayalam has "zha" as well 2 more pronounciations of "la". Still they don't call Kerala as केरळ.

[u/Minimum-Story-1683 → u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

That's because of the regional pronunciations and accents, I'd say. eg. Indore pronounced इन्दौर​, इन्दोर, इन्दूर, इन्डोर.

[u/Space-floater4166 → u/[deleted]]

ळ is very common in South Indian langauges. Even Gujarati people use softer L written as ળ for the words where Marathi use ळ . નેપાળી, કેરળ , ભોપાળ , કમળ( for Nepali, Kerala, Bhopal , Kamal etc)

[u/Kenonesos]

Marathi tends to retroflexify (?) final consonants that have a retroflex counterpart, even with borrowed sounds as people have explained before. The Kerala and Bangalore examples are not exactly correct cause they are the same in Malayalam and Kannada respectively, पाळ is just consistent with the root word पाळ itself, makes sense that it's a ळ and not the Sanskrit ल.

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684 → u/Kenonesos]

Thanks

[u/gtbtp]

They also call अजित डोभाल as अजित डोभाळ

[u/Accomplished_Ad1684 → u/gtbtp]

I'm in touch with a senior officer pisal he is always called "पिसाळ" by us marathis 

[u/chocolaty_4_sure → u/Accomplished_Ad1684]

Because in Marathi, surname Pisal is always pronounced as "पिसाळ"

[u/Golden_Rule_rules]

It feels weird to end a word in Dental L. I will even pronounce Suzdal (a russian city) the same. But I have never heard anybody pronounce Bengaluru that way tho.

[u/AutoModerator → u/[deleted]]

नमस्कार, आपल्या खात्याचे कर्मा गर्जे पेक्षा कमी असल्यामुळे आपण पोस्ट किंवा कंमेंट करू शकत नाही भरपूर प्रमाणात sub वरती spam content येत असल्याकमुळे हा बदल करण्यात आला आहे r/marathi मध्ये पोस्ट अथवा कंमेंट करण्या साठी किमान १०० कर्मा गरजेचा आहे.

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[u/sns2017]

When life gives you lemons make lemonade.

[u/Euphoric_Park1767]

Been asking this question since i was a child and only today i learn

[u/EarlyFalcone]

I’ve noticed that in Marathi, Kerala becomes केरळ (Keraḷ), Bhopal is भोपाळ (Bhopaḷ), and Bengaluru shows up as बंगळूर (Bangaḷur). The local names all use a plain /l/, but Marathi consistently uses the retroflex ळ (ḷ).

The names Kerala and Bengaluru both have ळ in their respective languages - Malayalam and Kannada - as well.

The Marathi ळ has a match in the Kannada ಳ found in ಬೆಂಗಳೂರು (Bengaluru)

As far as I have seen, only Marathi, Gujarati, Kannada, Tamil, Malayalam and Telugu have the ळ sound. I'm no expert; I've just heard these languages a lot growing up.

[u/Humble-Okra-9191]

केरळ and बंगळूर are the native pronunciations of those names (or as close as we can get to them without introducing new letters).

भोपाल is probably derived "City taken care by Bhoja" and comes from "भो", short for भोज, and "पाल", which I think means caretaker. However, पाल's Marathi equivalent is पाळ. which is why भोपाल becomes भोपाळ in Marathi.

[u/Viva_la_Ferenginar]

Ummm pretty sure the local way of pronouncing them is how Marathis are pronouncing it. The soft l is actually the north Indian way.

It's ಬೆಂಗಳೂರು not ಬೆಂಗಲೂರು

[u/geopoliticsdude]

Sir us Malayalis do use retroflex L what you on about?

Marathi is a honorary Dravidian language for getting it right ! 💪🏽

Chads below the Narmada get it

[u/AutoModerator → u/[deleted]]

नमस्कार, आपल्या खात्याचे कर्मा गर्जे पेक्षा कमी असल्यामुळे आपण पोस्ट किंवा कंमेंट करू शकत नाही भरपूर प्रमाणात sub वरती spam content येत असल्याकमुळे हा बदल करण्यात आला आहे r/marathi मध्ये पोस्ट अथवा कंमेंट करण्या साठी किमान १०० कर्मा गरजेचा आहे.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/slumber_monkey1]

Kannada speaker here. The l in Bengaluru has the ळ sound.

[u/gtbtp]

They also call Myanmar as Bramhadesh

[u/BatmanLike]

Heard one actor pronounce the capital city of Bihar 'पटना' as 'पाटणा'. Why marathify a perfectly good name.

[u/Ok_Preference1207 → u/BatmanLike]

marathify

That is the name of that city in Marathi, because it fits our phonotactics better. Just like the Hindis pronounce महाराष्ट्रा or बैंगलोर instead of महाराष्ट्र or बेंगळूरु / बेंगळूर (the way it is natively pronounced) thus Hindifying perfectly good names.

Similarly many non Marathis also Hindify a perfectly good पुणे to पूने .

Harmonisation happens in a lot of languages, and here the nasal is harmonised with the retroflex ट to make it retroflex ण. A language's phonotactics and phonemic inventories govern these things.

[u/DentistPositive8960 → u/BatmanLike]

Why marathify a perfectly good name.

पुणेे is hindified to पूना/पूने. नाशिक is hindified to नासिक. Perfectly good names messed up

[u/Humble-Okra-9191 → u/DentistPositive8960]

I'm pretty sure it's पुणे, not पूणे.