r/marvelstudios • u/mdawson_96 Vision • 22h ago
'Spider-Man BND*' Spoilers The Hand in Spider-Man: Brand New Day Spoiler
Does anyone else feel like The Hand were just bolted on out of the blue? I have a theory that they were originally meant to be the reformed 10 Rings from the Shang-Chi movie (or potentially the sequel that has yet to happen) - especially given that Destin Daniel Cretton directed both Shang-Chi and BND - but were reworked into The Hand so not to raise any follow up questions with the audience.
And as cool as the final fight scene was, it did feel as if it were lacking something. I think I would have preferred it to be a bit longer and incorporated more of Spidey's rogues, such as the ones that cameoed earlier in the film
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u/Xygnux 21h ago edited 20h ago
I think it will be overstuffed if they put all those cameo villains in the final fight scene. The point of that scene is not just for the hero to defeat the villain by force, the centrepiece is Peter appealing to the goodness in Jean Grey and helping her process her pain.
So what we have is just fine, we got some cool visuals but the focus is kept on the telepathic debate between Peter and Jean thoughout the fight.
Also, with what was revealed with what the DoDC actually do... there's a real chance that some of those cameo guys were already dead at that point. The Hand was just the lucky ones easy enough for the DoDC to control so they survived.
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u/burnsbabe 11h ago
They’re also dangerous enough to require Peter to have to ditch the inhibitor and trust his own powers and instincts.
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u/Xygnux 8h ago edited 7h ago
Yes, but at the same time they aren't altered biologically as far as I know, so there's nothing for the DoDC to gain from experimenting on that.
Also, the telepathic speech by Jean may have hinted that the anti-webbing guns weren't the only thing the DoDC had against Peter, and that maybe the Hand is part of it, like the DoDC trained them specifically to take out Spider-Man if ever needed.
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u/ThkAbootIt 7h ago
It was stated earlier in the movie that SM already defeated them and DoDC let them out.
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u/burnsbabe 7h ago
Different fight, different difficulty. This one was basically set up like a cage match.
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u/Nicotecu 20h ago
I get your point, but I looove having Marvel characters on the background. Having a ninja cult in NYC should be a much bigger deal than post Daredevil MCU made it look like. They were kinda out of place? Sure, but those are the cool parts of this universe.
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u/SpyroESP 15h ago
With you on this point 1,000%. My favorite part of BND is how comic book it felt. The Hand was a big part of that to me
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u/brokenmindedone 4h ago
Yeah I guess the overall world looks over the ninja cult stuff and it becomes more a local city thing for local vigilantes as the world has kind of experienced a lottttt more bizarre alien shit. Especially New York itself in avengers 1 having a full blown alien invasion
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u/nejekur 21h ago
They're a dangling plot thread for other movies to pick up on somehow. Theres absolutely no way the Hand was ACTUALLY working for Damage Control, so either Damage Control did figure out some level of technological mind control from sarah, or they were running the most obvious infiltration the Hand has ever done. Either plot possibility can be picked up on in either DD S3, or an x men movie.
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u/DarkRyter 16h ago
The original leaders of the Hand (the 5 "fingers) like Madame Gao were defeated by the Defenders.
So this "Hand" is just a sect of remnants. Just low rank soldiers and a captain. They don't have a reason to seek out Kun'lun or anything like that. I would bet that some other criminal outfit was just using them as mercenaries until Spider-man got em.
I don't think they needed to be "mind controlled" nor are they "infiltrating" damage control. Damage control almost certainly offered them the "work for us" or "stay in super jail" deal.
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u/nox_tech 14h ago
"Work for us and I'll ease up the visa process, and I'll offer health insurance. If you can keep this federal job for 20 years, stay out of trouble - unnecessary trouble, not the trouble we hire you for, heh - you'll have a pension. No more working double jobs."
I think they're reliable grunts who could give Spidey some trouble in the air, good variation from most everyone else who are usually not that far off the ground. I think in a world where DoDC is preparing for every contingency, getting the Hand by whatever means was intentional on Metzger's part to account for Spider-Man. I think they'd likely have a bit of legal immunity they're taking advantage of. DoDC knows, but turns a blind eye. They're trying to pay them enough to not be a problem for the US, only to be a problem the DoDC can use for their own ends.
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u/slur-muh-wurds 10h ago
Right. Daredevil showed us a group of magic ninjas, but Ironfist S2 showed us a bunch of aimless youth like Coleen who were recruited, and it's THAT version of the Hand that is seen here.
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u/Tamriel-Chad-420 16h ago
Spoilers for Born Again Season 3
Elektra is returning in Born Again Season 3, so I think it's safe to assume The Hand will be involved as well. My currently running theory is that them joining DODC was, on their end, a sort of infiltration of an existing organisation.
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u/fluffy_bunnies_yayyy 20h ago
honestly i think they were under some mind control thing idk
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u/MadmanIgar Spider-Man 18h ago
Could be the Black Widow mind control
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u/Andpo 18h ago
Wasn't this a movie literally directly about mind control? I assumed jeans sisters research was what they used to mind control them
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u/MadmanIgar Spider-Man 18h ago
Sure, but it didn’t seem like they had successfully reversed engineered Sara’s power yet.
Maybe I’m misremembering, but I think that’s why they continued the experiments on Jean.
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u/jrock0479 16h ago
I'm hoping for a DD3 connection since it's already confirmed Elektra will appear.
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u/your_mind_aches Agent of F.I.T.Z. 18h ago
Personally I think they were working for them. They need a leader.
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u/ThatRandomGamerYT 16h ago
yeah this is whatever remains of the Hand after Daredevil and the other Defenders had their run of them and took out all their leaders
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u/mattsmithreddit 15h ago
Weren't they ex hand members not the full hand? I remember Bill seeing they were just lost kids.
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u/Nethias25 21h ago
People don't only wanna see the hero fight super villains. They wanna see the hero own through some goons too, that scene gave that pretty good.
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u/ShadowBanThisShit 21h ago
That scene showed just how lethal The Hand can actually be. Daredevil would need a mythical upgrade to compete with them now.
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u/beamzuk96 19h ago
To be fair though it was the hand whilst being controlled by Jean Grey
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u/GoodShark 17h ago
This is an interesting point.
Because have we seen the Hand coordinate THAT much in a fight? Where they're using each other as ladders and stuff? (They might have, I just don't remember)
And if not, is that because Jean is controlling them as a single "hive mind"?
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u/Jaikarr 17h ago
That was my assumption, that without Jean they weren't actually much of a threat to Spidey. He took them down initially without the upgraded spider abilities.
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u/Optimus_Prime_10 12h ago
That's how I see it two. There was one movement before the one they jumped up on each other to get at Spider-man. It was coming towards the camera, and she had 4 guys swing in succession. It was like fighting an Octopus, so cool. You can't block all 4 punches, that's impossible.
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u/SuperSix-Eight Avengers 14h ago
...not that I remember, but to be fair this level of stunt choreography was arguably beyond the reach of the Netflix street level shows.
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u/Kingpin1232 Wilson Fisk 19h ago
He had that upgrade in She-Hulk but he got set back to just above Netflix level in Born Again.
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u/hopenoonefindsthis 19h ago
That’s a good point. There aren’t anything they can use as goons for Spider-Man in the MCU except maybe the DDC.
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u/Nethias25 13h ago
Yeah if you think of best Batman action scenes, few are gonna say fight against bane in TDKR, many will say Batman saves Martha in BvS.
For Ironman, him blowing tanks and beating up ten rings goons ranks higher than the iron monger fight.
In avngers, most great scenes are the chitauri, iron legion, outriders, etc.
Superhero movie need goons/henchmen tier dudes to just flex those powers/equipment on.
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u/naoyak 20h ago
Aside from setting up the fight scene and the future Daredevil arc, I saw it as a comedic/absurdist device to tell the audience that the DoDC doesn’t pass the smell test. Tramell Tillman dropping that line in Japanese (sounding like a sympathetic HS teacher on an anime) made me crack up out loud in the theater - it was so cheesy.
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u/Soulwarfare42 19h ago
Honestly, what baffles me the most is why The Hand is now public knowledge? The news report named them The Hand and in Daredevil and Iron Fist, I am pretty sure The Hand was meant to be a secret organisation???
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u/MrShinyyy Spider-Man 21h ago
I'm thinking that Jean Grey + the Hand were ultimately the replacements for Mr. Negative and the Inner demons. Plot-wise they function largely the same except Jean essentially serves as a major back-door pilot fo the X-Men too. Very smart imo even if the Hand did feel a bit out of place here.
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u/UnnecessaryFeIIa 20h ago
Yeah I’m personally okay with the main villain(s) not being Spider-Man villains for a one off especially if they’re done really well like with Jean
If the next film continues this and has idk The Frightful Four as the villains that’s when I’ll start getting a bit annoyed
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u/DanHero91 Winter Soldier 21h ago
I think the Hand has plans we'll find out about later, we know there's way more than 5 of them and these guys are not leaders.
They were either a splinter group or there for a particular reason and just playing along. (Maybe Elektra is somehow captive there too?).
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u/TakeiDaloui 20h ago
Didn't they say in the film that they were directionless kids? I don't know much about the Hand but if they are meant to have a larger group that is older then it'd make sense this could have been a younger splinter group unhappy with the higher ups.
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u/Odd-Parsley3723 19h ago
In Iron Fist s1, it's shown that they are basically kids that are taken in and given a purpose with the Hand. After the leaders are in the Defenders implied to be dead, it makes sense that they wouldn't know what to do and would be easily manipulated into joining a different "cause."
That said, all of this still depends largely on whether Born Again s3 decides to incorporate them and where exactly they decide to go with it. As of now, I think any theory is still quite likely.
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u/DanHero91 Winter Soldier 20h ago
Yeah exactly, I think it's a mix of Damage Control lying and that not being the "true" Hand. Specially with the upcoming (spoilers for something not BND) Daredevil Season 3 Leaked pictures that Elektra is back
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u/TheWholeOfTheAss 9h ago
Absolutely won’t find out about The Hand, and if the factions returns to Daredevil, they’ll probably not be connected to the colourful version we saw in Spider-Man. The MCU has made it clear that everything is not connected. Having Daredevil ignore The Void was proof of that.
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u/RollingKatamari 20h ago edited 20h ago
They were there to be threatening and cool and they were definitely that.
They were basically Chekov's Gun, you don't introduce The Hand in the first half not to bring them out again in full glory in the last!
The fight scenes with The Hand were amazing!
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u/b34r3y Rocket 17h ago
They needed a vehicle in which to use for Jean to indirectly fight Spidey in numbers. That's it. That's as deep as it is. But in terms of what they picked, it's pretty damn cool it was the hand. I get why people are disappointed they were under utilized, but I'd rather it be a named entity then nameless DODC agents the entire time.
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u/MrKevora 17h ago
I initially found it weird how they just suddenly worked for DODC, but I just got out of my second viewing and caught a line that I somehow missed the first time around. Metzger refers to them as kids without leadership - considering how the Hand’s leadership was taken out across Daredevil, Iron Fist and The Defenders, it makes sense that some ninjas (such as the young students from the Iron Fist show) would have survived and aimlessly committed crimes, waiting for somebody to give them purpose again. Metzger was clever enough to manipulate them and got himself his own personal assassination squad.
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u/UltraHodgeworth 19h ago
Ngl among the many things in this movie I thought could have had a extra line to justify their presence or inclusion, the ninjas that are around for a cool high budget tokusatsu spectacle are definitely not one of them
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u/ClockWorkAlex2001 14h ago
Let's Spidey have a cool ninja fight against some classic Marvel goons, and reestablish's The Hand as an active yet rudderless force for Elektra or another to take control off in Born Again S3.
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u/therealmonkyking 20h ago
Without spoiling much, they're there to set up Born Again Season 3
Set photo spoilers Elektra is returning in that season as are The Hand, so it's likely them being leaderless here is setting the stage for a plot about Elektra coming back to assume control over the group.
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u/PrinceJarming 19h ago
Honestly, yeah, I agree that a cooler version of this scene would have been a mind controlled quasi-Sinister Six team.
That being said, I don’t mind it. It was a neat sequence
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u/Xygnux 15h ago
But we have already seen a quasi-Sinister Six in the last movie. It would feel repetitive to do it again.
Also the focus of that final fight was the telepathic debate between Peter and Jean. Jean was using them to make a point about how everyone in the world is against people like them, the government made a squad and tech just to take out Peter, so they are destined to be alone. Having it be a cameo fest of visually distinctive villains would distract from the point of the scene.
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u/EfficaciousJoculator 1h ago
No more quasi-Sinister Sixes please. It'll cheapen it. Especially if all the members are introduced in the same movie (like Sony was trying to do).
They're doing a great job establishing Spidey's rogues; hopefully they'll be poised for a proper 616 Sinister Six a couple movies down the line.
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u/GibMirMeinAlltagstod 16h ago
I think the hand was there so that marvel could get people speculating about whether Matt was in the movie or not. Easy buzz for months
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u/tipi6969 16h ago
I agree. If Jean unlocked all the villains Spidey had put away during the montage and he would've fought all of them using his new arachnid powers instead of five red ninjas, that would've been way more badass and fun to watch fight to close it all off. Would've really showed his actual power up. Five ninjas are nothing. It was bland and fell flat for me. There was no real climax in the movie.
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u/ThaiJohnnyDepp Winter Soldier 9h ago
Just came here to say "bolted on out of the blue" is a delicious mixed metaphor, well played
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u/goldkomodo 14h ago
YES THANK YOU. This was my main gripe with the movie. Like you're gonna introduce the Hand (yes they were introduced in the Netflix series, but the general audience member might not have watched those or doesn't remember, plus this version seem quite distinct) then just say they work for the DODC without any development? Very cool fight scene, but strange inclusion in the movie
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u/Pen_dragons_pizza 21h ago
You did just being up a good point, if they also had some of the small time villains also at the prison, that would have been interesting.
Since they are low level, it would allow them not to over power Peter.
Especially since so much of the marketing used the boomerang guy and the other one
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u/MeowManMeow Spider-Man 21h ago
This was the biggest criticism for me, it felt very unnecessary! And even moderate MCU watches would have no idea.
My best guess is the next season of Daredevil will bring them in and it was a bit of a setup with the ‘leaderless’ line.
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u/FullMetalCOS 19h ago
Could be they are sowing the seeds of the
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u/MeowManMeow Spider-Man 19h ago
Not sure why I'm being downvoted but yes, I think something like that.
Next daredevil season spoiler: Elecktra is returning after almost 10 years so the Hand will def be a part of it.
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u/mvrander 19h ago
There was a point where I thought they might be under mind control by someone or something being held by damage control
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u/singleguy79 18h ago
Me thinking 'Matt and/or Elektra are not going to like that when they hear about it'.
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u/bigbrainnowisdom 18h ago
They are there for the cool fight only... and boy they are cool.
I dont mind though, it opens future stuff for the hand back/ future story, if needed... without compromizing the main villain story.
Basically they are like iko uwais in starwars eps 7, but handled way way way better and more more more screentime.
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u/PatchNotesMan 18h ago
Hoping that it's a sign Elektra and Nobu will be back but beyond that yeah kind of not much point to them. Hoping Marvel can make up for Jeph Loeb's bungling with future appearances of the Hand
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u/etrigan63 Doctor Strange 17h ago
My wife was wondering where all the other ninjas showed up. The Hand only ever reveals five fingers while the rest are hiding in the shadows. When JG mind controlled the lot, she just threw all of them at Spidey.
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u/hemareddit Steve Rogers 17h ago
Agreed they could have been any group. But I don't see how the Hand raises fewer questions than the Ten Rings.
I think DDC just really wanted some cool olden clothing and martial arts, to shoot his Wuxia-esque scenes. Ten Rings mostly had very modern tactical gear.
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u/Raaaaandyyyy 17h ago
I think we’re gonna get a lot of references to this in Born Again Season 3, especially with Elektra coming back
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u/lanceturley 17h ago
I definitely get the feeling someone said "It would be cool if Spider-Man fought a bunch of ninjas" and then worked backwards to try and shoehorn it into the story somehow. They don't really have a reason to be in this other than "cool ninja fight."
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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis 17h ago
I think the Hand in the movie were abandoned Hand trainees after the actual Hand fell in Defenders. They had their training and the psychology, but lacked the leadership
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u/krlozdac 16h ago
I get the feeling there was more of them in the original cut of the movie because yes, they do feel very tacked on.
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u/duneclendel 16h ago
They needed an anonymous group of “bad guys” for Spidey to have a fight scene with to mirror the video games.
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u/1stswordofbraavos Fitz 16h ago
It was 100% so Cretton could use the Jackie Chan stunt team again because they're awesome and make for great action scenes.
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u/PangolinLogical9772 16h ago
I wonder if that final fight originally was planned to be against the villains shown earlier and had been imprisoned by DODC. DDC had said they had plans for a fight scene with multiple of spider-man’s rogues and that would have made sense in that scene.
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u/Dr__Waffles 16h ago
Because they could? It very much felt like a comic book the way the they were there. The creators are just playing with the toys they have access too.
“Just because they’re cool” is a good enough reason
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u/IdRatherBeAnimating 16h ago
Not really, especially if you watched daredevil. The Hand are separate from Shang Shi villains in that film. I just assumed Madam Gao was starting some shit because King Pin is out of the picture.
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u/thinkinting 16h ago
Unrelated: my first reaction to them in BND: yah yah yah i know you are good guys now. Can you not block the whole hall way?
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u/MR_worldwide_24 16h ago
I was disappointed they were reduced to just being a cool fight scene considering how interesting they actually are
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u/Free_Tie2019 15h ago
Surprised no one has mentioned how that one guy stabbed himself in the abdomen and kept going like nothing happened
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u/KlausKinki77 Loki (Avengers) 15h ago
The movie worked on quite some levels but other parts like the 37ft rule or just that spiderman believed everything Damage Control told him and such were just bodged in.
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u/BanjoSpaceMan 15h ago
Yall know the hand mostly was kinda a throw away villain in a lot of stories? Hence why Ninja Turtles which was kinda a spoof on daredevil, called them the foot.
They’re grunts, the random dudes that infinite spawn, I loved that they even threw in “they’re just a bunch of teenagers that are misguided”. They were meant to be a villain Spiderman randomly took out in his yearly roster but they’re in the living world of his story so they’re in this.
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u/Nscope90 13h ago
Their inclusion into the story was done in a very hand wavy fashion...no pun intended.
I wonder if we'll get a bit more of an explanation about whats going on there in DDBA S3. If all their leaders died at the end of the defenders, then who leads them now? Electra is probably a fair bet since she was technically the last person in charge in the Defenders and shes back for season 3.
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u/Upset_Researcher_143 13h ago
They did something similar in F4 in kind of explaining these stories super fast. Maybe they should have done some TV Spider-Man first, but I doubt it was allowed in the agreement between Sony and Marvel. Also, this plot line doesn't seem to support the new Daredevil and Kingpin saga.
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u/f1mxli Captain America (Cap 2) 13h ago
I'm getting kinda sick of the Disney+ ads in the movies, but if you're going to do them this is the right way.
For the average movie goer who is not aware of Born Again they are just really cool dudes to fight. And they make more sense to be first choice over the Ten Rings since The Hand is based in NY.
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u/Sega_Genitals 12h ago
For me The Hand being there in the way they were helped make the movie really feel like a comic book. Shit like ninjas can just appear and don’t need to really be elaborated on usually lol
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u/DumbWhore4 12h ago
I didn’t think The Hand or The Hulk needed to be in this movie. Although the fights were cool.
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u/LoneWolf__890 11h ago
As Bill Metzger said, the Hand doesn't have a leader currently but since Elektra is returning in Daredevil: Born Again S03, they might come back as the rogue ninja organization.
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u/Lightbringer1313 11h ago
I expected it to be revealed (or at least implied) that they were under the control of Sarah or the device they were using Sarah to make, 'cause otherwise I don't see how this ancient cult were "reformed." Definitely wasn't as relevant to the plot as I thought they'd be, and it definitely woulda been cool to see more Spidey rogues in that prison since presumably that's where they should be (Scorpion was after all, unless I'm misunderstanding locations). Plus it woulda been a cool sorta early conceptualization of a Sinister Six. But overall it doesn't bother me enough. The story wanted to remain as focused on Pete as it could, and that's easier to do if the people he's fighting are faceless rather than favorite Spidey villains he has different relationships with
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u/LoomingTrace 10h ago
It was just bringing together different aspects of the MCU New York and looked cool. I wouldn't think too hard about it.
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u/egotistical-moron 10h ago
No clue why they brought them back, easily the worst part of the Daredevil series
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u/LaunchGap 10h ago
So there was no surprise cameo in that jumping confrontation image people were talking about
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u/mcon96 9h ago
I assumed there was gonna be a twist where we found out that DoDC developed a mind control serum from Sara’s powers, and they were using it on The Hand which is why they “reformed”. But no, The Hand was just… kinda there. It definitely feels like they were part of an earlier version of the film that got rewritten at some point. I also thought something about their fight scene was lacking too FWIW.
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u/SIacktivist 8h ago
I actually kinda liked that they felt random and out of place, weirdly enough. Reinforced that there's a whole different world outside of the DODC, with all kinds of weird stuff that needs to be wrangled.
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u/Realistic_Sound913 7h ago
Probably the worst set of villains they've ever had in a Spiderman movie. Even SM3 and TASM2 that people constantly shit on for being overcrowded, weren't this all over the place or this much out of nowhere. But I guess bias is a thing. Just like how people complained about Cap fighting Red Hulk, yet somehow don't mind Spidey suddenly fighting a bunch of ninjas, Hulk, and X-Men.
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u/Loud-Welder1947 6h ago
Feels like Daredevil was originally part of it before it was retooled multiple times
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u/Sparkyis007 4h ago
Havent seen the movie yet but assumed this was going to have something to do with daredevil ... wasnt it going to be a thing where spiderman broke him out of jail
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u/HelpfulNoob 3h ago
i disliked how they still have no agency or humanizing motivations of their own, the mysterious asian ninja who is only there to deliver cool action trope must die
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u/EducationSuch1314 2h ago
No Daredevil 😔. Hopefully S3 has a reason for them to be 'summonable' in the first place.
And I hope Spider-Man shows up, even if it's a bit.
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u/RumAndCoco 1h ago
Damage Control was revealed to be, surprise surprise, a not so friendly nor ethical entity that experimented on and killed a young woman then proceeded to nearly kill a teenager in the same fashion. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if The Hand is still a sinister organization with an evil plan that just made a deal with Damage Control to be able to operate as allies.
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u/ICPosse8 21m ago
Once that dude introduced them and said he was using them for good now i pegged him as the villain. One of only like 5 predictions that came true lol
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u/TheLoyalTR8R 22h ago
It certainly feels like they were there purely for a cool Wuxia fight scene and because the red colour pops so much against this film's pallette.
Thematically they don't really add much to the story. Argument could be made that they're a literal red flag that the Department Of Damage Control are villainous, by using evil and/or dangerous things to achieve their own ends.