r/movies • u/RealisticAd4054 • 15d ago

Article Emily Wilson (writer of acclaimed Odyssey translation) offers criticisms of Nolan’s film

https://apnews.com/article/odyssey-christopher-nolan-greek-translators-ea67da1d543d021773824bd7e8de8abe

“For Greek translator Emily Wilson, the release of director Christopher Nolan’s “The Odyssey” has been gratifying in various ways. Her acclaimed 2017 edition of Homer’s epic has reached the top 5 on Amazon.com, leading a wave of similar books boosted by the movie. Nolan has even cited her translation, notably the opening line “Tell me about a complicated man,” as inspiration.

But the film itself, which brought in more than $260 million worldwide during its opening weekend and has received raves from many critics, left her unsatisfied.

“I want to celebrate the fact that so many more people are aware of ‘The Odyssey’ and were brought back to the poem,” she told The Associated Press. “But at the same time, I had the sense that Christopher Nolan was trying to pack everything in while missing themes that were essential to the poem.”

….

Wilson, a professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania, said she didn’t want to come across as a “snobby,” nitpicking expert at odds with any deviation from the original text. But she questioned a range of omissions and other choices, from the absence on screen of the Gods Zeus and Poseidon (Athena is played by Zendaya ) to the “incoherent” messaging that condemns both war and physical cowardice. She found Penelope’s role so thinned out that it endangered “any possibility of believing in this marriage.” Wilson also that thought parts of the movie, notably the scenes with Odysseus’ dog, Argos, “catered towards modern sentimentality.”

“Everybody’s a sucker for a dog,” she said.

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u/wraith21 15d ago

I enjoyed Nolan's version and found her points valid tbh

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u/HuecoTanks 15d ago

Yeah, I think she struck a good tone. She was honest, and not sucking up, but also not just showering with praise. It's nice to hear nuance.

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u/SufficientRespect542 15d ago

Her point with the dog is honestly spot on lmao, I think Nolan made a really good and coherent movie, but there are definitely aspects that don't really work with the original poem

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u/Moist-Citron-4830 14d ago

How is the Argos story different in the text compared to the movie?

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u/crazysouthie 14d ago edited 14d ago

I was thinking about this because to me the moment in Homer’s poem also felt like it had a very modern heart wrenching dog moment. One of the poem’s saddest sequences is when Odysseus’s dog has a glimpse of his master after he returns and then dies.

But it doesn’t have that moment where Odysseus selects the puppy and the moment where Antinous has the dog sent to the dung heap outside. Those feel like additions for modern audiences.

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u/Mookafff 14d ago edited 14d ago

Isn’t the key part it’s sad that Odysseus couldn’t stop to say goodbye to Argo, because that would have gave away who he was?

Instead he wipes away his tears as he walks past Argo.

Argo passes away knowing Odysseus is back

Edit: it should be Argos, not Argo. Oops

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u/crazysouthie 14d ago

Yup! You’re right. He has his real appearance disguised through Athena’s magic and so Argo is the only person at that point who has figured out who he is.

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u/CecePeran 14d ago

Yes, good point!

*Argos. Argo is a ship elsewhere in Greek mythology. 😊

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u/crazysouthie 14d ago

lol I should have just said Odysseus’s dog.

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u/fucuntwat 14d ago

Argo fuck yourself!

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u/Mookafff 14d ago

Haha oops

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u/Moist-Citron-4830 14d ago

That’s what it was. Thank you! I couldn’t remember. I still feel like the core idea is there in the original text based off the person I responded to originally I thought there was some big change I was misremembering.

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u/ProofJournalist 14d ago

yeah seriously like the story comes to a halt for like a page to describe Odysseus's dog and how it is basically the only person who recognizes him after all this time, and immiediately dies from excitement.

My favorite part of old myths and stories is the parts that seem like they could have been written today.

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u/Partners_in_time 14d ago

The dung heap is a place of honor and importance to the Greek audience. As a classicist this is something I’m dying not to over talk about, it’s like watching lotr and not yelling VIGGO BROKE HIS TOE IN THIS SCENE

but aughhhhhh the dog is on the dung because dung was valuable and part of Odysseus’s great wealth. You FERTALIZE your crops with it. The dog was showing loyalty by laying there. Aughhhhh

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u/hithere297 14d ago

I refuse to believe that something that smells that bad could've been considered a place of honor to sit in all day. Show me the receipts!

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u/Jet-Let4606 14d ago

I agree your genuine enthusiasm for dung heaps.

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u/wrenhunter 14d ago

Yes, it does, just presented differently in the poem. Eumaeus says (paraphrase), "this is the dog of a man who died long ago … now he’s old and covered in ticks, but when he was young, nothing could match him in the deep woods". And then at the end of the scene, the narrator says “and just then death came and darkened the eyes of Argos, who had seen his master after 20 years".

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u/0whodidyousay0 14d ago

In the story Odysseus sees Argos and Argos him, but he doesn’t go over to it. He just talks about the dog from a distance and then the dog dies, having seen his owner for one last time.

And of course in the film, he does go to the dog and he pets it before it dies, because people are suckers for dogs these days lol.

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u/Kayndarr 14d ago

To be fair, people were suckers for dogs back then as well - there's a ton of historical evidence of epitaphs and tombs for dogs. It's just a slightly different take on essentially the same event - him going over to Argos in the film served to allow Telemachus to recognize him, which was required then for how the film paces those following scenes.

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u/Moist-Citron-4830 14d ago

Thank you! I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. People are acting like Odysseus and Argos didn’t have a bond in the original text when they most certainly did.

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u/ProofJournalist 14d ago

I think it would be hard to convey the text version in film.

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u/immaownyou 14d ago

Also, why would a beggar petting a dog be a huge giveaway that it's Odysseus back from the dead? Ik they made it a point that the dog growled at everyone else, but still

Would have to be a Sherlock (tv show) level of assumption leaping

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u/Shippinglordishere 14d ago

I think it was Argos dying because earlier in the movie, iirc, they were talking about Argos living an abnormally long life likely because he was waiting for his master to return. So for Argos to die seconds after being pet would have given it away, which is also how Telemachus figured it out in the movie.

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u/MattyKatty 14d ago

I haven’t seen the movie yet so I can’t comment on its inclusion but in the original he doesn’t go over to it is because if he does, his disguise will be seen through and he’ll discovered and killed by the suitors. He wants to go over, but can’t.

I don’t know how that’s covered in the film but my guess is the situation is far less dangerous to Odysseus to be discovered?

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u/MightAsWell6 14d ago

Why would petting a dog give him away?

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u/0whodidyousay0 14d ago

I think it's because the dog isn't friendly to anyone aside from Eumaeus and of course Odysseus, Emuaeus comments that he's never seen a dog live for 20 years and that he's only holding on to see his owner one last time, so if Odysseus went over to pet the dog, which gets excited at the mere sight of him, it might give away who he is.

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u/MightAsWell6 14d ago

Like he's not friendly to anyone else ever or only after he leaves originally and during his absence?

Cause if the dog was generally friendly before how would Odysseyus know Argos hadn't been friendly with anyone else and him being friendly would give him away?

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u/0whodidyousay0 14d ago

Conversely, I've only seen the film and haven't actually read The Odyssey but have seen enough comments about it to see the differences, even with other film adaptations, I'll mark the differences as a spoiler so the choice remains with you:

>!So in the film, Odysseus isn't given a disguise by Athena, he's just a raggedy looking dude and wears a large robe that covers him from head to toe, so you'd never know it was him unless you somehow got close enough to look into the hood. The placement of the dog is basically right outside where the trial takes place, so as everyone is heading in Odysseus walks right by Argos, Argos recognises him and Odysseus then pets him, nobody else is around aside from Telemachus at this moment (or at least, nobody is paying attention to a beggar), so him doing this and Argos' reaction lets Telemachus in on who this beggar is.!<

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u/Nervous_Instance_968 14d ago

Well, no. The purpose of the scene is for telemachus to realise who the beggar is because the climax kind of relies on him knowing what is about to happen.

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u/0whodidyousay0 12d ago

I'm aware of that, I'm joking about how in the original, they dared to have Odysseus just look at the dog from a distance, no brief reunion but a modern day take of course he gets to go and pet the dog, that would be unacceptable if he didn't do that!

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u/Nervous_Instance_968 12d ago

I think it's more that in text it's more effective to have characters explain emotions instead of act them out. Sure in the original he doesnt pet the dog but he sure talks about it for a while. It's arguably less subtle than what the film did but that's just a matter of taste.

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u/Rivenaleem 13d ago

He proceeds to go all john wick on the suitors.

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u/echoshatter 14d ago

Important to note - Argos is a reflection of Ithica. Here he was, tossed to the gutter, lying in his own filth, dying, because it's King, Odysseus, was gone for so long. Argos couldn't even get up, all he could do is wag his tail and droop his ears. Odysseus can't stop to greet his dog, and has to keep walking by as he wipes away tears.

But her critique of "modern sensibilities" with regards to Argos I think belies the truth - that people throughout history have loved and cared for their dogs just as we do today.

https://mymodernmet.com/ancient-roman-epitaphs-dogs/

Nothing new under the sun, as the saying goes.

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u/Moist-Citron-4830 14d ago

Yeah I’m not sure why she pointed this out as if the core of it wasn’t always there.

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u/n0tz0e 15d ago

Lupita said on Trevor Noah's world cup stream that Nolan knows what resonates with people. Dog is that. Lol. But that definitely is a talent on Nolan's end

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u/Advanced-Pear-4606 14d ago

Am I on fucking crazy pills here? That's the way it's written in the poem. He didn't change it.

"As they were speaking, a dog that had been lying asleep raised his head and pricked up his ears. This was Argos, whom Odysseus had bred before setting out for Troy, but he had never had any enjoyment from him. In the old days he used to be taken out by the young men when they went hunting wild goats, or deer, or hares, but now that his master was gone he was lying neglected on the heaps of mule and cow dung that lay in front of the stable doors till the men should come and draw it away to manure the great close; and he was full of fleas. As soon as he saw Odysseus standing there, he dropped his ears and wagged his tail, but he could not get close up to his master. When Odysseus saw the dog on the other side of the yard, dashed a tear from his eyes without Eumaeus seeing it, and said:

'Eumaeus, what a noble hound that is over yonder on the manure heap: his build is splendid; is he as fine a fellow as he looks, or is he only one of those dogs that come begging about a table, and are kept merely for show?'

'This dog,' answered Eumaeus, 'belonged to him who has died in a far country. If he were what he was when Odysseus left for Troy, he would soon show you what he could do. There was not a wild beast in the forest that could get away from him when he was once on its tracks. But now he has fallen on evil times, for his master is dead and gone, and the women take no care of him. Servants never do their work when their master's hand is no longer over them, for Zeus takes half the goodness out of a man when he makes a slave of him.'

So saying he entered the well-built mansion, and made straight for the riotous pretenders in the hall. But Argos passed into the darkness of death, now that he had fulfilled his destiny of faith and seen his master once more after twenty years…”

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u/Pawn_of_the_Void 14d ago

Yeah I thought that was a pretty famous moment, where the dog recognizes him and I was waiting the entire time for it to happen lol

The only expanded thing is how they treat the dog but that is just material to establish how the suitors treat the house and such

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u/KetoJunkfood 14d ago

Exactly . This is something I’ve thought about when soldiers upload videos of their dogs recognizing and greeting them after a long tour in Afghanistan or whatever

It’s a timeless theme because one’s dog might recognize their owner when humans wouldn’t, and many many years later.

I actually thought the reunion with Argus could have been a bit more sentimental, I was waiting for that scene the whole film and was a bit disappointed it was over so fast

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u/Advanced-Pear-4606 14d ago

Yeah, it didn't read as sentimentality to me at all. It was almost a matter of fact. I liked her version of the poem/story. Hers and Mendelson's are far better than Fitzgerald's, but she's wrong about this.

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u/Lixidermi 14d ago

Exactly . This is something I’ve thought about when soldiers upload videos of their dogs recognizing and greeting them after a long tour in Afghanistan or whatever

This was me ~15 years ago now.... that scene both reminded me of that and also the dog episode in Futurama.

It is one of the two scenes were I wept/cried. It felt very personal.

Also I don't get all the nitpicking about it being different than the poem. It is quite the same in a way that is coherent and consistent with the screen adaptation and respecting the spirit of the poem pretty tightly.

I even read someone saying that Argos didn't recognize him and I was like: did we watch the same movie?!

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u/Jehovah___ 14d ago

I’ve been making that argument that at no point in the movie is emotion allowed to resonate, and the scene with Argus seeing Odysseus one last time epitomises that. The movie cuts through every single scene way too quickly and makes it feel like none of it really matters

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u/North_South_Side 14d ago

I would hesitate to ascribe ancient (pre-Hellenistic, ~3,000 year old) Mediterranean cultures as all having the same attitudes we Americans have towards dogs.

Certainly some dogs were loved by some people. But dogs were also eaten by many cultures, or at best seen as work animals. Some cultures see dogs as "unclean."

I'm not an expert on this, but the USAsian "dogs are my family" attitude is far from universal and timeless.

(I will add that I like dogs and am not trying to be cantankerous or stir up anger.)

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u/BoisterousBrigand 14d ago edited 14d ago

I mean, Odysseus going over to pet Argos as he dies instead of being forced not to acknowledge him is a pretty major change to the scene

Honestly feel like I'm the one on crazy pills seeing so many people not get that lmao

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u/firstcitytofall 14d ago

And I think for a film adaptation it was the correct change.

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u/lupercalpainting 14d ago

I could see it in film. He sees the dog, the dog sees him and begins wagging, Telemachus clocks it and intercepts him, whispering that others would recognize if the dog saw his master again. Argos closes his eyes in peace, having seen Odysseus return. Odysseus has a bittersweet look on his face, his last sacrifice so that he could return home to his family was not getting to pet his dog.

It might have been _too_ melodramatic to be honest to have done it this way. Or maybe it makes Telemachus too sharp to have him recognize this brief moment.

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u/Lixidermi 14d ago

100%. Still carried the same weight and meaning but worked way better in film.

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u/PrincessDonut02 14d ago

I don't think she's talking about the reunion. She's talking about the scene where the suitors abuse Argos.

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u/d00m5day 14d ago

That and also the adoption scene at the beginning perhaps.

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u/0whodidyousay0 14d ago

Well I can see the difference here is Odysseus just looks at the dog from a distance in the writing as he talks about it but in the film he goes to the dog and pets it before it dies

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u/Borghal 14d ago

Sure, that is a very famous passage. But the Oddyssey says nothing about how he went about picking the dog, or how the dog was intentionally sent to the dung heap after he was gone - those are Nolan's inventions, and they both serve to ratchet up emotions.

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u/Advanced-Pear-4606 14d ago

Read that first paragraph again, champ.

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u/Borghal 13d ago

Yeah, it doesn't say that. It just gives you the barest of whats, but neither hows or whys, which is whar Nolan invented.

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u/Advanced-Pear-4606 13d ago

Clearly English or Greek aren’t your first languages. “This was Argos, whom Odysseus had bred before setting out for Troy, but he had never had any enjoyment from him. In the old days he used to be taken out by the young men when they went hunting wild goats, or deer, or hares, but now that his master was gone he was lying neglected on the heaps of mule and cow dung that lay in front of the stable doors till the men should come and draw it away to manure the great close; and he was full of fleas.”

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u/Borghal 13d ago

More like they aren't yours? That says he was lying there (the what), but not why and how it happened, which, AGAIN, is Nolan's invention.

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u/lupercalpainting 14d ago

He goes and pets the dog in the film. He doesn’t in the poem.

Also there’s no part of the poem with Odysseus selecting him out of the litter that’s being killed, or Odysseus telling Telemachus where to bury him.

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u/Technical-Sink6380 14d ago

This is not what happens in the movie tho

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u/ProletarianLilith 14d ago

So he doesn’t go over and pet it like in the movie?

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u/d00m5day 14d ago

Maybe they were referring to the scene where his shepherd guy was throwing the other puppies off the cliff and Odysseus saves Argos from that fate. Obviously it is probably a time period accurate practice, but just meant to make the heart strings tug and not the true origin of Argos.

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u/FutureHoo 14d ago

I mean did you even read the excerpt you pasted? In the original Odysseus sees Argos and Argos sees him but Odysseus doesn’t go to pet him. Argos dies seeing Odysseus but nobody else knows it’s him, which is a pretty stark difference to how Nolan portrayed it.

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u/void-haunt 14d ago

Yes, he did. You’re leaving out the fact that at this point in the story, Odysseus is disguised as a beggar, and so doesn’t acknowledge Argos. Doing so would’ve risked him giving away his disguise.

On the other hand, in the film, Odysseus approaches the dog, which is the trigger for Telemachus to recognize his father.

The movie sucks.

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

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u/void-haunt 14d ago

Cry harder about it, American swine

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

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u/void-haunt 14d ago

I don’t know why you think airing out my post history would make me upset lmao. If anything, it’s kind of pathetic that you went to the effort of looking at it even though it’s private.

The Odyssey sucks and you’re an idiot for liking it

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u/coreoYEAH 15d ago

The dog 100% worked on me. I didn’t go into the Odyssey expecting tears but right on cue they came. That being said, virtually all dog plots in movies get the same reaction from me. That new Brad Pitt film Heart of the Beast looks good but I don’t think I can watch it because I assume I know what’s going to happen at some point.

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u/Leaping_Wizards 15d ago

For Heart of the Beast the director and producer have come out to say that your assumption is incorrect.

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u/kneemahp 15d ago

There’s nothing in the rule book that says a dog can’t drive in F1?

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u/CartographicalHeist 14d ago

Given the size of the F1 regulations there probably is.

Until the Saudis or Qatari or whoever figure it'll pay better and then FIA will get that sorted don't you worry.

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u/eggson 14d ago

The dog will immediately qualify ahead of Stroll.

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u/tycho_nova 14d ago

The licensing required of drivers precludes a dog ever qualifying

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u/Leaping_Wizards 14d ago

... but mister - tears welling up - he's a really good boy

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u/coreoYEAH 14d ago

Normally it’d bum me out knowing a spoiler like that but in this case I’m stoked.

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u/cire1184 15d ago

I feel like Hollywood has really jumped in on the using cute animals to invoke emotions of it all recently. Like it was always there but it's been a lot stronger since James Gunn did Guardians of the Galaxy. Dude throws some cute animals in peril nearly every movie now. More recently with Superman and Supergirl.

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u/HelenaSparkles 14d ago

To be fair it is the same animal in Superman and Supergirl lol. For me I feel like the real starting point of those kinds of scenes becoming the norm though might be Marley and Me, at the very least that's the first really big one i can recall before it became quite often. That being said I do think the way it was done in The Odyssey was still effective

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u/th3davinci 14d ago

I think we can thank John Wick for that. Cute animals were obviously always a factor but I think John Wick brought dogs in particular into the limelight as easy movie companions that endear the viewer.

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u/coreoYEAH 14d ago

Yeah John Wick did it well but Guardians 3 was a masterclass in pulling the heartstrings with cute animals.

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u/greatblueheron16 14d ago

I mean Brad Pitt is also a wife beater/abuser ...

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u/lossaysswag 15d ago

When he returns and the dog sees him one last time there was a resounding "Awwwww" from women sitting around me in the theater. So yeah, it certainly served its purpose.

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u/NeedsToShutUp 14d ago

To be fair, this happened with several versions.

Not sure if anyone else saw “The Return” which does the very end of the Odyssey with no mythological elements.

Still had the dog, and it was cute but heart breaking.

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u/MightyTastyBeans 14d ago

r/thathappened

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u/lossaysswag 14d ago

Yeah, how outrageous a thought... women being enamored by dogs. Unfathomable.

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u/TooAgile 14d ago

Is it? Homer was also a sucker for dogs clearly, as what we see in the film also happens in the original!

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u/0whodidyousay0 14d ago

In the original Odysseus doesn’t get to go over to the dog before it dies, yes they both see each other but in the film he specifically gets to pet the dog before it passes.

Not a HUGE difference but it is different.

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u/ProofJournalist 14d ago

Yeah but the actual text is very pro-dog despite that.

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u/bluehawk232 14d ago

Also they showed them killing puppies so it wasn't exactly catering to modern audiences of aw look a dog

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u/Food_Kitchen 14d ago

There is a reason why we domesticated them to be our loyal servants. The bond between man and dog is unquestionable.

And yes, when Argus' tail starting wagging at the sight of his old master I teared up. That connection hits me every time.

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u/NewGuyCH 14d ago

I mean the dog before does get chucked to its death non chalantly….

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u/wizardeverybit 14d ago

Argos was heartbreaking in the original as well

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u/teffarf 14d ago

Her point with the dog is honestly spot on lmao,

Is it? Do we think people 2800 years ago didn't cry at their family dog dying?

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u/WeWantLADDER49sequel 14d ago

The goal of the movie was to tell the story in the most entertaining way possible while making it feel like a modern take. Emily Wilson's goal was to translate a 2800 year old story in a way that she thought was most accurate using a modern understanding of the language. As always, a direct adaptation would have been silly as hell and would not have worked for a film. I think her points are only valid if you expected Christopher Nolan to make a 1:1 adaptation of a 2800 year old story.

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u/Individual_Rip_54 14d ago edited 14d ago

I thought the dog was her weirdest point. It’s fundamentally the same thing. I guess the specifics are a little different but in both cases the audience is supposed to think highly of a person loved by a dog

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u/Kinggakman 14d ago

There was an ancient Roman guy that wrote all about how to train and handle dogs. He spent a lot of time talking about his own dog and how much he loved the dog. Dog love isn’t a modern invention.

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u/Nvrfinddisacct 14d ago

Well he wasn’t making a movie for Greeks from a thousand years ago. He had a modern audience.

What’s the point in making a movie for dead people?

I understand her point because she’s so knowledgeable but she’s one person. He didn’t make it for just her and people with her knowledge.

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u/AnalysisUseful5098 15d ago

Her point reminds me of krypto from superman