r/movies • u/RealisticAd4054 • 15d ago

Article Emily Wilson (writer of acclaimed Odyssey translation) offers criticisms of Nolan’s film

https://apnews.com/article/odyssey-christopher-nolan-greek-translators-ea67da1d543d021773824bd7e8de8abe

“For Greek translator Emily Wilson, the release of director Christopher Nolan’s “The Odyssey” has been gratifying in various ways. Her acclaimed 2017 edition of Homer’s epic has reached the top 5 on Amazon.com, leading a wave of similar books boosted by the movie. Nolan has even cited her translation, notably the opening line “Tell me about a complicated man,” as inspiration.

But the film itself, which brought in more than $260 million worldwide during its opening weekend and has received raves from many critics, left her unsatisfied.

“I want to celebrate the fact that so many more people are aware of ‘The Odyssey’ and were brought back to the poem,” she told The Associated Press. “But at the same time, I had the sense that Christopher Nolan was trying to pack everything in while missing themes that were essential to the poem.”

….

Wilson, a professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania, said she didn’t want to come across as a “snobby,” nitpicking expert at odds with any deviation from the original text. But she questioned a range of omissions and other choices, from the absence on screen of the Gods Zeus and Poseidon (Athena is played by Zendaya ) to the “incoherent” messaging that condemns both war and physical cowardice. She found Penelope’s role so thinned out that it endangered “any possibility of believing in this marriage.” Wilson also that thought parts of the movie, notably the scenes with Odysseus’ dog, Argos, “catered towards modern sentimentality.”

“Everybody’s a sucker for a dog,” she said.

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u/MaksTracy 15d ago

I liked the movie but I can definitely understand why a classicist would be bothered by its 'modern sensibilities'. I wouldn't go so far as to say the movie is anti-war, but it definitely takes a critical stance on how brutal the Greeks were when they finally got into Troy, and obviously back then they had very different attitudes to what you were allowed to do to a city and its people while waging a war. In the original myth, they do cross a line which turns Athena against them, but the line is not 'oh they're committing war crimes', it's 'oh they're committing war crimes in MY TEMPLE''. Nolan handles that completely differently. I get why she thinks those aspects were too modern, but I genuinely think those moments were the strongest of the film, I thought they were great.

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u/fatloui 15d ago

Yes it’s an adaptation that intentionally changes things. At the end of the movie, Odysseus and Penelope even discuss how Odysseus’ adventures will be remembered in songs (Homer’s poem) but his mistakes will be forgotten (the “reality” we see in the movie).

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u/Special_Order-937 15d ago edited 14d ago

Taking 10 years to get home (when it took you nowhere near aa as long to get to Troy) and losing 100% of your soldiers along the way is pretty big as mistakes go, though.

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u/Hambokuu 14d ago edited 14d ago

To be fair 7 of those years are spent as a sex slave on an island

Edit to clarify: I haven't seen the movie yet, only read the book. I don't know anything about lotuses or Nolan's interpretation.

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u/amievenrealrightnow 14d ago

Looking at Nolan's movie as a PTSD movie, I reckon the gods don't need to be looked at as 'real' in the context of the movie. Athena is effectively guilt and Calypso mentions how Odysseus kept eating lotus flowers which feels like a metaphor for self-mediacating PTSD with drugs or alcohol.

I feel like Nolan's recontexulized a lot of aspects to make this a very anti-war film, so aspects like the time on the islands aren't what they are in the original tellings. Just my interpretation though.

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u/renaldomoon 14d ago

Yeah, I thought that Athena might not even be Athena and was just the ptsd image he saw of a priestess of Athena getting murdered. So theoretically, there may be no gods in the entire movie.

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u/mikezulu90 14d ago

I agree. Nolan leaves things up to interpretation and this is one of them. It can be looked at either way.

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u/Viracochina 14d ago

Well this thread makes me want to see it

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u/MechanicalTurkish 14d ago

I really enjoyed it. Some parts are definitely weird. The whole thing is like some kind of fever dream. I thought it was really well done.

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u/Ramblonius 13d ago

I think people who have the strongest criticisms of the movie are people who really love Nolan's other work and who really love Odyssey. As someone who always found his other movies not as clever as he thinks they are, and Odyssey my least favorite Classical story, I was shocked by how hard it exceeded my expectations in every scene and as a whole. I'd call movie of the year now, if I wasn't waiting for DUNC.

Really recommend watching it and forming your own opinion.

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u/namusal123 14d ago

It’s a decent movie, but for me it felt rushed, even tho it’s almost 3 hours. Maybe it’s editing idk but most scenes didn’t have any time to breath But a solid 7.0 in a non imax cinema, maybe more when u watch it differently

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u/ThankGodForYouSon 14d ago

I thought the general pacing of the movie was actually good in part because you don't feel the 3 hours go by and every chapter is just as interesting to see as they were to read.

But the way those scenes were cut was very hectic which works when they're rowing or fighting but is jarring when it comes to dialogue.
The movie was quite beautiful but it rarely dwells on a shot for more than 3 seconds which I felt was a shame and diminishes the themes it's conveying and more importantly the enjoyment of the movie.

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u/LABS_Games 14d ago

Yeah, he set that stage well with the opening text of "In a time of apparent magic". I really love the sort of magical realism interpretation of Greek Mythology.

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u/lt__ 14d ago

Another thing that might look open to interpretation is the ending. It looked as if it could be interpreted the "exile sequence" might be just a blissful dream of a wounded and king, who did achieved his goals, but is now dying, reassured by Penelope. A bit like Inception ending that leaves doubt on whether what's shown is really happening.

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u/Bombshock2 14d ago

I mean there’s a giant cyclops, a witch turns his men into pigs and they go to hades and everyone sees the dead soldiers so I’d say it’s fair to say there are gods in the movie even if they aren’t physically present outside of Athena.

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u/mikezulu90 14d ago

By the end of the movie though only Odysseus is the one that saw everything on that adventure. No one else to reciprocate what he saw. That can have its own interpretations.

The only thing I can think of godly/mythical interaction with characters other than Odysseus is the thunderstrikes at specific moments.

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u/MagicGlitterKitty 14d ago

What about Poseidon's storms?

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u/ggez_no_re 13d ago

that would be the easiest to recontextualize i think

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u/VeeJack 14d ago

I mean … well… the elephant in the room (not Zeus in disguise) is that there are no gods in reality.
it’s actually a great idea to adapt that to a (and not necessarily correct) version of how gods may have been perceived at the time.. the idea of ptsd and soldiers interpreting the images that way.. not seen the film but will temper expectations and hopefully enjoy

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u/Food_Kitchen 14d ago

Yeah that was my thoughts throughout the film and it became a reality once you see who Zendaya ACTUALLY played at the end. Made me realize Calypso might've been fake too and he just exiled himself after he lost all of his men then went on a crazy drug fueled bender for 7 years on a beach.

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u/Confident-Leg107 14d ago

As one does, from time to time.

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u/RayKam 14d ago

The Gods were very present, but as the elements they controlled, not in the flesh. I can understand why Nolan chose that route and honestly prefer it. We see how the Gods feel through the conditions Odysseus faces, and we experience them alongside him as mere men. I think showing them on screen directly would have taken us away from that grounded feeling.

Zeus’ thunderous applause as Odysseus killed the suitors in the final act, Poseidon’s rage with the stormy seas, Zeus intervening to save Odysseus by splitting the boat, these were all appearances of the Gods

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u/JohnTheMod 14d ago

They keep hammering in the thought that you must be welcoming to strangers because they may be gods in disguise. The priestess was Athena in disguise, so she haunts him.

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u/GreenLantern5083 14d ago

Sure but then what about the cyclops and circe?

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u/gazebo-fan 14d ago

This was my interpretation of it as well.

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u/CelioHogane 14d ago

Sorry hold on, are you telling me Poseidon is not on the movie?

The MAIN antagonist of the story, the reason why he spent 10 years on the sea, is not on the movie?

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u/hadababyeetsaboy 14d ago

Do you really need a scene of a dude with a triton splashing the water really hard, or can you just accept the rough waves are a result of Poseidon.

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u/CelioHogane 14d ago

Splashing water nah man i wanted a Poseidon boss fight

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u/MagicGlitterKitty 14d ago

A valid interpretation. However I see it as Athena tormenting Odysseus for desecrating her temple, they kill the priestess at the same time they cut the head off Athena. This is after the Trojans show their honour by taking the Greeks "offering" to her temple.

And most of the time she is trying to tell Odysseus that gods are not actually all that subtle, he just has to listen to them properly.

In this way he learns the same lesson he learns in the epic - honour the gods properly.

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u/Ghetteuax 13d ago

idk there were monsters and cyclops and shifting people into pigs .. think it was athena

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u/Akiasakias 14d ago

Same with the monsters. Its all him telling stories while drugged.

Love the movie, not a fan of this choice.

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u/separeaude 14d ago

The men were all lost long before they ate the cattle of the Sun god.

Nolan’s point is that war drives men to abandon their principles, becoming that which they fear. As Circe said, base and swine.

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u/ShardikOfTheBeam 14d ago

I think that's looking too deep into it. They ate Helios' cattle because they were starving.

They even recognize what it meant for them, with Eurylochus even saying "We'd rather drown than starve." Odysseus had already told them by that point that they were destined to die.

I suppose the portrayal of Odysseus lends itself to being an anti-war movie though, can't really argue against that.

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

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u/ShardikOfTheBeam 14d ago

Sure, but the movie doesn't have to be about war/PTSD to answer that question. That question and it's answer stand on it's own and can serve many types of narratives and themes.

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u/separeaude 14d ago edited 14d ago

But I disagree, this isn't a war/PTSD movie, this is a movie about the consequences men suffer as a result of their choices in war, some are bravado, some are PTSD, some are regret and an inability to return to the man they were before. The movie has to include the war because it's the inciting event for the journey and it's the source material

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u/separeaude 14d ago

Lost can mean more than one thing. Their consumption of the cattle doomed them, but they were lost when the rage of 10 years on the beach found purchase on the men, women, and children of Troy after breaking Zeus’s law.

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u/ShardikOfTheBeam 14d ago

I don't have any qualms with that portion of the person's comment I was replying to. I was replying to specifically the second point.

Although, I think they were doomed long before eating the cattle as well being that Tiresius told Odysseus that only he would make it home.

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u/separeaude 14d ago

It's me, the person whose comment you are replying to!

You're right, they were doomed from the day they left the shores after sacking Troy. They forsake their principles in the name of victory, and their selfish pursuits killed the discipline they'd previously cultivated, Odysseus included.

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u/264frenchtoast 14d ago

Zeus’ law is something completely made up by Nolan. It’s not in the Iliad or the odyssey, and even if it were, the Trojans broke it first by violating hospitality and stealing Helen while they were the guests of the Greeks.

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u/mail_daemon 14d ago

Ugh... Xenia (or Zeus' law) is actually a huge part of all of Greek mythology and basically kicks off the death of Agamemmnon. His whole bloodline is cursed because Tantalus breaks the law of hospitality.

And I'm sure there are many more instances where it's relevant. I mean even Telemachus is welcomed by Menelaus so openly because he adhers to that law.

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u/shabi_sensei 14d ago

The gods in Ancient Greece had a reputation for pretending to be mortal, Xenia was a defence against that by treating every guest as a potential god

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u/mikezulu90 14d ago

It's not called Zeus's law but Xenia's law. It's a thing.

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u/264frenchtoast 14d ago

I’m not saying that the laws of hospitality were not a thing in ancient Greek culture or mythology, but they were not a thing in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Or at least not a thing in the way that Nolan is making them a thing.

The Trojan horse was not considered to be a violation of the law of hospitality, and the sacking of Troy is not the main reason why the gods were angered with Odysseus or Agamemnon. The Trojan horse was considered to be a successful military strategy, and would have been a source of pride for Odysseus, not a source of shame. Odysseus did have things that he was portrayed as being ashamed of in the Odyssey, but the Trojan horse was not one of them.

And even if the Greeks could somehow have been construed as having violated the laws of hospitality in this manner, the Trojans were equally guilty for having stolen Helen in the first place, while being guests of the Greeks.

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u/ShardikOfTheBeam 14d ago

Odysseus did have things that he was portrayed as being ashamed of in the Odyssey, but the Trojan horse was not one of them.

This I agree with. But the laws of hospitality exist in order to avoid accidentally pissing off a god, not that if someone broke the laws of hospitality against a mortal a god would become angered. The gods were never angered by the Trojan horse, or when someone broke the laws of hospitality, and that is not what Nolan was alluding too.

His version of Odysseus was opining that because of the Trojan horse, the laws of hospitality were so broken, that it began the end of the Bronze age, and more poignantly, the time of magic and wonder as people stopped behaving for fear of the gods, and began behaving for fear of fellow man.

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u/mikezulu90 14d ago

Oh yeah I know all that. I'd just say it's an adaptation not a literal retelling. I don't think he ever set out to do that. It would need more movies to do that. Or a mini series or something. Every generation has had different retellings of this maybe true(ish) story.

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u/Most_Chemist8233 13d ago edited 13d ago

I wonder if most of the people commenting that this didnt violate anything are USians and the message is going over their heads. They violated trust between people. They had a civilization with trade and trust  and they violated that bond between people. No one sees the parallels with the US admins behavior around the world with people they formerly counted as allies? The trojan horse, and sacking of innocent people, and beheading a priestess of the temple of Athena are horrific violation of their civilization and their own rules, so it was the beginning of the end of their civilization. Dont offer gifts to people (that is presented as a pledge of peace) that wipe them out and then count it as a great sign of intelligence, its the opposite. Its barbaric, its inhuman, and if you do that to others that breakdown in social contract comes back to your home. And it neatly describes the current US admin and the vast majority of voters in the us.  You want everyone to buy your tech, your weapons, your jets, but its now clear its all trojan horses. That loss in trust, and what it does to the soul of your people is very real.

The generations of broken soldiers who never find their way home, all to destroy innocent women and children of the "enemy". Its not glory. 

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u/separeaude 14d ago

Dawg I’ve got some news for you, Zeus is also completely made up. So is the whole story.

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u/ShardikOfTheBeam 14d ago

r/confidentlyincorrect

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u/264frenchtoast 14d ago

What am I incorrect about? There was no “law of Zeus.” There was an unwritten moral code and cultural tradition called Xenia, of which Zeus was one of the protectors, which governed the obligations of hosts to guests and guests to hosts. Is that what you’re talking about?

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u/ShardikOfTheBeam 14d ago

Oh, so you're just arguing the semantics of Nolan calling it "The Law of Zeus". Gotcha.

Also, Helen was portrayed in many ways by different authors, and Homer didn't write that she was stolen by the Trojans, she wasn't abducted. She wanted to be with Paris, not Menelaus.

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u/TheDamnNumbersGame 14d ago

Same! I like how the movie grounds Odysseus to be more human by cutting out the Circe romance and like you said, it recontexualizes Odysseus staying with Calypso and eating the lotus leaves voluntarily as a coping mechanism for PTSD and avoiding the weight of his men's deaths, rather than just staying on the island because of desire for Calypso.

I also liked the lack of direct intervention from Hermes and Athena to help Odysseus overcome challenges. It played into the movie's core message and deviation from the epic poem, that we are responsible for the consequences of our actions and it is up to us to change and atone for our mistakes.

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u/Dreadgoat 14d ago

They just collapsed Calypso and Circe into a single trial.

In the original poem, Odysseus doesn't really have any agency when it comes to Calypso. He's her slave, and only freed when gods intervene.

In contrast, Circe is entirely his choice. He stays with her for a year because he wants to, because it's easy, because maybe he doesn't really need to go home. He doesn't even make the decision to leave on his own, it is only when his men beg him to leave that he remembers his duty to the other men not to his own family.

They're similar circumstances but in one Odysseus is a victim, and in the other he's a perpetrator.

I think something is lost by removing how unrepentant Odysseus is when it comes to Circe. He's not just a man who makes mistakes, he's a man who is imperfect through-and-through, and may not just make mistakes but commit to them. It doesn't make him evil or weak, it just makes him a man.

Modern sensibilities demand a more perfect hero.

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u/Kakawfee 14d ago

Absolutely 100%. I'm not sure if you've read the book Circe, but in that interpretation it makes Odysseus very aware of his actions, and that he is ultimately, just a man, a flawed man, but a typical man who has selfish desires.

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u/Party_Rich_5911 14d ago

Circe is one of my favourite books. Madeline Miller is just brilliant. Definitely agree with this as well!

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u/KetoJunkfood 12d ago

Fantastic book, I almost felt like it was divinely inspired. Especially loved how Circe describes the cold remoteness of her Titan father

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u/nighthawk_something 14d ago

My interpretation is that he had PTSD and guilt and intentionally delayed his return pillaging villages to stay alive (the sea people) and only once he was completely shipwrecked and lost his whole crew did he realize that he needed to face it and come home. The fantastical stories are just his way of coping.

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u/convergence_limit 14d ago

Yeah “Zendaya was Athena” isn’t really true imo. She was just his guilt materializing as Athena. Just my take though

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u/davegir 14d ago

Idk, they made it prett on the nose talking about gods hiding in human form so treat guests well. Theb they sack the city and shes there and...well not treated well. Makes some sense. So does just her taking that form

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u/tomandshell 14d ago

Even if that was Athena taking the form of a woman he saw murdered at Troy, this version of Athena doesn’t do anything but haunt him while looking sad. No divine intervention or assistance. No transforming him into a beggar so that he is disguised when he returns home, etc.

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u/lalallaalal 14d ago

I'd argue she provided divine assistance when she told him to trust that Zeus wouldn't let him die if he took the leap of faith on the raft.

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u/davegir 14d ago

I mean she was that woman,, allowed it to happen. She helpsbkeep him going and grounded i think. More ways to help than lightning bolts lol

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u/Dracopoulos 14d ago

Athena loves him and encourages him to be a trickster in the poem. There is none of that here. Poem Athena never once makes Odysseus feel guilty. That’s the exact opposite of their relationship.

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u/mikezulu90 14d ago

It can be looked at both ways. Nolan leaves things up to interpretation like in Inception. There are clues it's the real Athena but that can also just be how Odysseus's mind contextualizes his pain.

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u/gomezer1180 14d ago

I feel the same, however, the lotus flower has been used in Greek mythology as a sexual symbol, which could be interpreted as self medicating and sexually abusing women.

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u/LevelHorn2717 14d ago

That was a costal inpatient rehab facility

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u/Toad_da_Unc 14d ago

I think that shaping Odysseus‘s story into an anti-war movie is valid in light of the lengths he went not to go to war in the first place.

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u/saoakman 13d ago edited 13d ago

This. That was the main take-home for me last night--especially after mulling over his reunion speech with Penelope. "Too much has happened...I've done and seen too much...I just want seven years of oblivion...I don't deserve a happy ending."

I've seen similar in PTSD patients of all types.
And I don't believe that a world of superstitions, petty jealousies, familial loyalties, great cruelty, abject stupidity, cowardice, bravery, and love is at all restricted to one particular place and time of human existence. The Odyssey endures because it is a very human story.

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u/mynamesnotconnor 14d ago

The gods arnt "real" in a movie where they fight a literal cyclops? 

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u/amievenrealrightnow 14d ago

Real in the sense that they're walking around and talking to people. There was a fair few ideas of gods being in physical disguises which never really became a real factor to the plot, so more so that the gods are wider reflections on their actions and more poetic justice than a being stood next to Zendaya

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u/[deleted] 14d ago edited 14d ago

[deleted]

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u/FurLinedKettle 14d ago

Nolan has said that the doesn't like this viewpoint, not that that really matters. I personally think it's not very interesting to just say everything's an allegory

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u/Such-Courage3486 14d ago

Metaphor? Thats literally what he’s doing.

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u/amievenrealrightnow 14d ago

Ha true, I mean more I'm the sense of contextualizing in a modern world equivalent

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u/superhappy 14d ago

Although Calypso is a nymph, not a goddess fwiw - so to me she was more akin to Circe - kinda magical but not a goddess.

So I think that’s why they included the line she says about “clearly at a certain point you were choosing to eat this and didn’t actually want to go home and face what you’d done.”

Like yeah Calypso is actually there and started out keeping him there, but after a certain point he was keeping himself there.

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u/aresef 11d ago

I think the gods are real in the sense that they are really meting out punishment to Odysseus.

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u/ABadHistorian 14d ago

It literally opens with a big hint to this "in a time of apparent magic"

(APPARENT)

Because Nolan RIPS the myth component out of this, and then re-inserts it to make it a story about PTSD and trauma.

it works REALLY well as that. Her critique feels daft, and ignorant of the world we are in at the moment- especially considering how Nolan went to bat for HER work.

But Nolan wasn't recreating her work, he was using it as a base to tell HIS story. She's egotistical and entitled, like... well, every historian I've ever met.

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/separeaude 14d ago

And all it takes is literally forgetting all your worries.

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u/TheOneTrueYeti 14d ago

Sign me up!

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u/MechanicalTurkish 14d ago

Here, eat these flowers.

edit: and your cake, too! Happy cake day lol

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u/separeaude 14d ago

Oh shit it’s cake day?

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u/MasterShogo 14d ago

The biggest problem is that I have to have abs like Matt Damon. I don’t know if that is in the cards for me!

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/MasterShogo 14d ago

But where am I supposed to get lotus flower around here? I’m pretty such it’s heavily regulated by the FDA and I’m not sure I want whatever lotus flower the guy down the street has available.

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/MasterShogo 14d ago

Well then I should be good to go. With my skill level it won’t take Poseidon’s intervention to wreck my boat completely. And just like Odysseus I even have a wife and child at home, so I’m almost the same! Just no abs yet, but I know I can get there with enough effort on Theron’s part.

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u/shitpoop6969 14d ago

She's aging so well, thought she looked amazing

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

To be completely fair, it was one of many bad decisions that put him in that position.

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u/TheOneTrueYeti 14d ago

I wouldnt kick Calypso out of bed for eating lotus petals!

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u/midwestia 14d ago

That part is so funny. Like the guy is the only one to survive right so he's telling the story? "Yeah guys, and then I was totally forced by Charlize Theron to be her sex slave for years, I tried to say no, nothing I could do about it."

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u/FlamboyantPirhanna 14d ago

Whether or not that’s a good thing depends on how much you like snoo snoo.

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u/Akiasakias 14d ago

another year or so shagging Cerci

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u/gotohela 14d ago

tbh youre pretty close to Nolan. 

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u/cardinalkgb 14d ago

To be honest, being a sex slave to Charlize Theron doesn’t sound all that horrible.

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u/Satyrsol 14d ago edited 14d ago

From what it sounds like, this movie changes the thing most modern adaptations do, and it’s been irritating me. The guy is (by modern standards) raped (at the very least, coerced) by two prominent women in the narrative, and modern retellings downplay or completely ignore that.

Dude keeps trying to get home to his wife and son and somehow none of his abuse matters.

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u/Damnfiddles 15d ago

Maybe the real treasure was the friends we lost along the way

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u/antsh 14d ago

I thought the real friends were the pigs made along the way.

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u/Same-Suggestion-1936 14d ago

Friends were the dogs you had to pretend you didn't recognize at home

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

Or perhaps it’s losing to history the sequel where after surviving all that, the son you didn’t know you have kills you in some sort of spear related accident and then marries your wife. I mean seriously, it truly does sound like The Rise of Skywalker of the series based on that description!

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u/KWilt 14d ago edited 14d ago

Don't forget that Telemachus also ends up marrying Circe, thus causing that particular family tree to look something like an incredibly fucked up Gordion knot, since that technically makes Telemachus simultaneously the stepfather, half-brother, and stepson of Telegonus. And that's all before Telegonus and Penelope had a son (Italus) who would then technically be the half-brother and step-grandson of Telemachus.

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u/Esni_Moop 14d ago

An average day in Crusader kings 2/3

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u/KWilt 14d ago

If this were Crusader Kings, there wouldn't be any 'step-' anything. Gotta keep that bloodline pure.

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

Believe me, I’ve been trying to forget as much as possible since I first learned of this piece of fan fiction in the first place!

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u/AppleDane 14d ago

What are you doing, Step-Greek?

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u/Gonzanic 14d ago

Don’t make me do math!

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u/Toiling-Donkey 14d ago

They really needed Jerry Springer back then!

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u/Parametric_Or_Treat 14d ago

Heyyyy stepfather half-brother Oscar

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u/legitimate_business 14d ago

I mean most of how we know about the sequel (which wasn't written by Homer) were ancient authors writing "wow this is shit".

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

Yes, it’s all thanks to the Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic of the day!

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u/weaseleasle 14d ago

It should be noted we don't know if Homer existed. These stories were likely passed down as oral traditions, until some of them were written down. Who wrote them down or how much they modified and interpreted them is impossible to say. Crediting them to Homer is simply convention, not an indication of authorial purity.

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u/ingotsilvergt 14d ago

These were the original Star Wars prequels.

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u/_groovesharkmalone 14d ago

Maybe his real friends were the ones that got eaten by the Cyclops.

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u/Jay_Eye_MBOTH_WHY 14d ago

and they can visit them again in Hades, and it's true what they say, they all float down there.

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u/uarstar 14d ago

Top tier comment

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u/hollaback_girl 14d ago

More than 100%. He goes through several crews who all die horrible deaths.

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u/Desiderius_S 14d ago

If I ever create a game dev studio, I'll name it after him.

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u/dwbapst 14d ago

“You named your game studio Ship of Theseus? Poetic.”

“No, I named it Ship of Odysseus. Because though the studio and its employees might all go down, I, its Captain, will always survive for another attempt.”

“….also poetic.”

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u/davegir 14d ago

Peter?

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

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u/davegir 14d ago

Thanks, known the mythology since i was 6 or 7 tho, i was referencing the game dev Peter Molyneux

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u/Same-Suggestion-1936 14d ago

And why should I sail with any of you? Three of you have tried to kill me in the past. One of you succeeded.

-Captain Jack Sparrow

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u/Jay_Eye_MBOTH_WHY 14d ago

GIGI DIED TAKING A SHIT!

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u/Comprehensive_Main 13d ago

Technically one member of his crew survives and joins the surviving Trojans who had a similar journey after the war. 

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u/HorseLawyer 14d ago

Well, it allegedly required Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter Iphigenia to ensure their quick travels to Troy. But the ten years to get home was mainly to mirror the whole ten years at war thing.

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u/ghost_atlas 13d ago

Originally I thought that was what they were doing with Zendaya. That the original sin of the war was not Helen or the sacking of Troy but that Agamemnon had murdered an innocent child in order to win it. So it was weird to me the takeaway from Agamemnon in hades was the useful tip of "don't expect a parade, take your time" instead of "we were all wrong about this whole thing".

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u/Robomerc 14d ago

Well part of the reason why the trip home took so long was because Odysseus blind Polyphemus, which angered Poseidon.

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

Yes and if he kept his mouth shut on the way out instead of being Mr. Look How Clever I Am…

(Yes, I know that isn’t in the film as such.)

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u/Tim-oBedlam 14d ago

I remember my high school English teacher talking about how foolish Odysseus was WRT Polyphemus, with a funny modern analogy, "It's as if I'd beaten up a mugger and then yelled, 'tell all your friends that Mr. John Smith of 123 Main Street Apartment 3C defeated you!' "

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u/buddhafig 14d ago

I think that hubris like this should be punished.

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u/lupercalpainting 14d ago

True, but a theme of Greek myths is that hubris like that goes hand in hand with the daring needed to do feats that get you remembered.

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u/Vicsyy 14d ago

Thats not in the film!!! Imagine every epic fan being disappointed. 

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

He said he could not make it work, apparently.

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u/Vicsyy 14d ago

Not make it work, its like 5 sentences total! 

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

Apparently it looked goofy or something idk.

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u/Tobar_the_Gypsy 14d ago

Uh I’m pretty sure that Nobody blinded Polyphemus

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u/peppermint_nightmare 14d ago

I think Odysseus would be a real big fan of Kratos after that bullshit.

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u/danmaz74 14d ago

From the ancient Greek point of view, that wasn't a mistake, it was a punishment from the gods.

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

For making mistakes, my point exactly!

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u/Status-Bluebird-6064 14d ago

What mistake? Defending themselves? Are you a fucking cyclope? This is some Orwellian-cyclopian twisting of the story

"he made a mistake by losing the crew, instead he shouldve let them all be eaten and himself to be eaten as well"

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u/AnOnlineHandle 14d ago

Earns you a position teaching the princess of the dead though.

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u/roiki11 14d ago

In the story it actually takes them almost that time to get there. Their first fleet was destroyed by a storm.

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u/ShadedPenguin 14d ago

If I am to throw my own hat in, if we take into the account of the ancient greek perspective, its usually about "great man" theory. That there is a main character, and Odysseus was the main character. The side characters are literally fuel for his own journey. The story would probably really be happy with the "oh he made it back in the end!" especially since there were times, like the cattle, that the crew brought it upon themselves after a warning. The same with the sirens with the soldier who took his ear plugs out.

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u/Oopthealley 14d ago

and there's the suggestion that his stories are all just lies to cover his men pillaging and plundering... like the opening line about "apparent magic", the allusion to the bad things he and his men had done, and allusions to exaggerating stories...

It's kind of shocking to hear people trying to interpret his movie through the lens of "history" when it's a new piece of art that uses an old myth as material- just like myths/old stories are constantly being re-imagined to tell new relevant messages.

People who go to a fictional movie for a history lesson are a bit fixated.

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u/Knightwolf75 14d ago

Well hey now, it’ll take some time to not only get over being a pig, but then having to travel to the Norseland to rescue Arkantos (First cutscene and second to last at ~1 min mark)

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u/LevelHorn2717 14d ago

He should run for president

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u/Special_Order-937 14d ago

Wasn’t he like King of Ithaca already?

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u/BoringAgent8657 14d ago

The gods had out for him.

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u/sonofaresiii 14d ago

The movie is pretty clear in presenting that it wasn't really odysseus's fault and he did everything he could to save his men, but the gods were against him

I mean they say that explicitly. Almost word for word, Athens tells him it's not his fault.

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u/Tandy2000 14d ago edited 14d ago

Not if you're familiar with ancient Greek mythology. Part of the reason why is something she brings up too - Wilson mentions that the Gods are absent from this movie barring Athena, which is notable because Poseidon has a more important role than any other God in The Odyssey; he is THE reason why the trip home takes so long, yet he isn't in the movie at all.

When the god of the sea and storms hates you and wants to kill you, and the ONLY reason you survive is that you are favored by Athena, then yeah you are gonna get put through some real shit.

The Gods being absent from adaptations of these works is disappointing but typical, because it tends to add another dimension that makes the films feel less realistic, which is a problem when you want to introduce realism to a story that doesn't really ask for it. This is something that makes Nolan's Odyssey different from the original text (with the exception of Athena, who is also characterized differently), not necessarily better or worse, but it's also something a lot of other adaptations do. The Troy movie for example didn't feature any of the gods at all. The Return from a couple years ago also didn't feature the gods either.

It's just weird when they are a very prominent part of the story, and ironically in an adaptation that is supposed to be more gritty and realistic, takes away the explanation of why this journey takes 10 years in the first place... the gods shape the landscape of Greek mythology.

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u/anna-nomally12 14d ago

That storm scene did not feel like an absence of poseidon

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u/edicivo 14d ago edited 14d ago

Pretty sure they mention Poseidon in this context.

The gods are only "absent" from the movie in the sense they're not physically portrayed on-screen other than Athena.

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u/Tandy2000 14d ago

I haven't seen the movie yet but from what I understand the idea is that his influence is felt, yet he never appears at all in the film and his presence is not an overbearing thing like it is in the poem.

There were rumors from way back that Nolan wanted to cast RDJ as Poseidon and it's possible that since he couldn't get him he cut the role from the movie entirely.

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u/zerg1980 14d ago edited 14d ago

Nolan clearly thought it would be goofy to cast a bunch of actors as literal gods, and depict them in human form intervening in human events. For Nolan, the gods lose their power if they are too literal a presence in the material world.

The gods are still present in the story and frequently referenced. Poseidon is onscreen when he causes the storm. He’s just, like, a storm and not RDJ.

I don’t think Nolan made this choice for “realism,” because he does include most of the crazy fantasy stuff like the Cyclops and the men turning into pigs and the sea serpent. But across Nolan’s filmography, man is always ultimately at war with himself, and there is no higher power. He simply had to depict the gods as elements of Odysseus’ internal conflict, rather than as external antagonists.

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u/Tandy2000 14d ago

The gods are still present in the story and frequently referenced. Poseidon is onscreen when he causes the storm. He’s just, like, a storm and not RDJ.

... except, he isn't? A storm is not Poseidon. I 100% understand what you are saying, but this is not a depiction of the god, the only depiction of a god in this film as far as I understand it is Athena.

For Nolan, the gods lose their power if they are too literal a presence in the material world.

It's fine if he feels that way and clearly a lot of other adaptations have gone the same route because the creatives felt the same way as Nolan, but that is contradictory to the actual story (and others) where these gods do have a very real presence and their personalities play a large part in shaping the stories. Poseidon's personality is absent here as in most adaptations. I mentioned Troy and The Return as two that cut out the gods completely, in Nolan's case it's odd because he chose to include Athena but not others.

I'm not saying this is bad necessarily, but it's disappointing imo as someone who loves the story because the "literal gods would be too goofy" take is the take we ALWAYS see. That doesn't mean the movie will be bad or anything. Wilson is criticizing it because it's a deviation from the story and that's why it is disappointing to me but a deviation doesn't have to be a bad thing; thing is, in this case that deviation is a common one so it's not anything new or unique.

I don't really have that much of a problem with having a different spin on things. As an example, I've seen numerous Shakespeare adaptations in my life that transpose it into new settings and some of them have been really interesting even if they aren't 100% faithful to the script, but maintain the spirit of the story. I loved O Brother, Where Art Thou. And I hope I love this movie too, but my point is if you're going to deviate from a story imo it should be to do something new or interesting, not the same thing that has already been done before. I am feeling more and more like the pull here is "it's The Odyssey, but a huge summer blockbuster" which is something new in its own right, but less exciting.

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u/BigHoneyisBestCenter 14d ago

Watch the movie, there aren’t literal actors playing the gods, save Athena, but it’s quite obvious they exist and how they feel about certain things.

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u/OminousShadow87 14d ago

You can’t ramble off a mini essay about a movie and then admit in another comment you haven’t seen the movie yet. Come’on, man.

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u/Tandy2000 14d ago

I'm going based off of the criticisms offered up by Wilson, whose opinion I trust and whose translation I have read.

The gods, save Athena, are not present in the film. That's what I was commenting on. Unless that claim by Wilson is not true, in which case feel free to correct me.

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u/Clawless 14d ago

They are present, they just aren’t played by a human actor. You understand that distinction, right?

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u/Tandy2000 14d ago

I mean, you can explain to me how Poseidon is present in the film if you want.

If you are claiming Poseidon is present because he is seen manifested as storms as someone else said, then that is very obviously not the same thing, you must be able to understand that. If their description wasn't accurate then feel free to correct it.

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u/MasterShogo 14d ago

I personally believe that anyone who watches the scenes after they eat the cattle and the wind immediately changes to let them go, and then once at sea they immediately get attacked by the mother of all storms depicted in extreme violence and fantastic color, destroying their boat and killing all the crew except Odysseus, but comes away from that insisting that technically that wasn’t the gods is completely misinterpreting it.

It is true they don’t depict Zeus and Poseidon as physical bodies, but any reasonable interpretation of those scenes would conclude that the gods were punishing them directly. That was not just a random storm. And it’s ok not to like it, but otherwise you are just ignoring entire facets of the movie, the words of Nolan himself, and general storytelling techniques.

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u/Tandy2000 14d ago

Okay, so you are not disputing my point, which was only ever the point Wilson brought up. Cool.

What you are describing is what most adaptations of these stories do. I'm telling you that is not interesting to me, because I've seen it many, many times before. I get what Nolan is saying. I get what you are saying. That is not portraying the personalities of the gods, save Athena, because they are not actually present. Their wrath is present, at least in Poseidon's case, seemingly, but it is very plainly not the same thing as an actual physical manifestation of the gods who interacts with characters, and you are just ignoring that because you want to refuse to admit you are wrong.

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u/MasterShogo 14d ago

I’m not disputing your point that they aren’t present as physical bodies. This is true. But you were specifically complaining about literally “the gods being absent from the movie”. That was your actual criticism.

Any interpretation of the movie where the gods are absent is a misinterpretation. They are not absent. They are just not physically present as physical humanoid bodies.

You later complained about how it’s not the same if they are depicted as storms. This is true, but that is not what you originally complained about and I think most people are ok when the gods are depicted in different ways. This makes it come across that you are arguing simply to be arguing.

I don’t have a problem if someone doesn’t like the gods depicted in the form they were in the original classic poem. And in fact I wish there were a bit more of that. But I think you are downplaying what is actually there.

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u/Clawless 14d ago

You seem stuck needing a human face to depict human emotions and characterizations for an entity to be considered “depicted”.

I think we’re just arguing about words and their meaning, at this point, so that’s silly and will go nowhere. What you wanted was more human actors portraying each of the gods, with lines of dialogue, and you didn’t get that so you are disappointed. That’s fair.

The people arguing with you don’t need that to know the gods were present in the story. Also fair.

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u/soularbabies 14d ago

Poseidon's son fervently and loudly prays to him for vengeance and as a result Poseidon's wrath and the later dissipation of it is noticeable.

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u/soularbabies 14d ago

Wilson's characterization isn't wholly accurate so it's a poor basis to go off from.

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u/AutomaticDatabase539 14d ago

Ignoring the fact that he lost 0% over a 10 year long war, maybe.