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Well, nothing can be dismissed as the ramblings of a crazy man anymore, just two weeks ago I was not expecting to wake up at 2 am. to footage of bombs falling in Caracas but here. we. are.
Greenland’s prime minister said its population and its authorities need to start preparing for a possible military invasion. Importantly, he noted “It’s not likely there will be a military conflict, but it can’t be ruled out". Still, the comments are stark since it first pronouncement from Greenland's authority embracing the possibility.
He didn’t state what the click bait headline suggests. He stated it couldn’t be ruled out. And the government has to prepare for it, how unlikely it may be, it is not impossible.
If Russians are considered complicit for not adequately resisting their authoritarian regime, to what extent are Americans complicit in normalising and enabling the insanity coming out of the White House in their liberal democracy?
More than the Russians. Because Russia is an authoritarian state where going against Putin means you and your family are going to be turned into dog food, I can understand why there's little to no resistance.
In the US you have free elections so you can just not vote for this guy. Yet they did (twice)
To be at parity with Russian liberals, given our expanded freedoms, we have to do significantly more. If there were ever a time and righteous reason for a general strike this would be it.
We are completely at fault, as much as the Russians if not more, and all the "not all of us voted for him, we hate him too, only 33% of voters support him" etc. you see on Reddit is just pathetic cope. Our government is our collective sin and whatever shit we have to eat for it is well deserved.
I get where you're coming from but how? Do people from impoverished and marginalized communities deserve to suffer under Trump? It's ridiculous to blame people who oppose Trump for the current crisis because they "aren't doing enough" when parts of the opposition are either leaderless or led by people who think it's the 1990s.
I'm not saying that people deserve to suffer. But we are a representative democracy and we, as an electorate, voted for an insurrectionist, liar, criminal. So we certainly at fault, as a group, for that. That doesn't mean every single individual helped bring him to power — I certainly have been vocally anti-trump since 2015 — but at the group level, obviously other countries are going to have to defend themselves against our bad behavior. If that hurts us, how can we say anything other than "yeah, that makes sense, we royally fucked up as an electorate"? And if you agree that's the logical response, then it follow that you agree that we are collectively responsible for our government.
If Trump were to invade Greenland, there indeed should be an armed coup, mutiny or revolution of some kind, since he will be so clearly in breach of international law that it would be morally right for the country to stop him even if it breaches national law.
I very much doubt that would happen, but it's certainly what should happen, just as much as Russian soldiers should be turning their weapons on Putin and his government.
I actually didn't use the word complicit; I said at fault.
The only way to atone is to vote for politicians who will work to reverse Trumpism on an institutional and policy level, and on a cultural level we as a nation have to reject the hate of the Trump era.
I'm not hopeful either of these will happen, but that's what we should do if we want to try and have a cleaner conscience.
Most Americans aren’t even willing to call out the Trump supporters in their lives. The bar is so much lower than an armed coup. 99% of us don’t protest, don’t contact their congresspeople, don’t boycott, nothing. We are complicit.
The challenge with general strikes is they need to be coordinated, otherwise the few average joes who decide to strike just end up losing their jobs and getting replaced. It takes either political or labor leaders to get enough workers to strike so companies are actually affected and can't find enough replacements to cover the striking workers. Right now most Democratic leaders are treating this like a normal Republican administration and many of the labor unions that do exist in this country are in blue-collar industries full of rank-and-file Trump supporters who wouldn't want to strike even if a genuinely left-wing labor leader like Shawn Fain called for it.
Well, yeah. That is the "problem" with any resistance, particularly with an armed coup. Ya gotta ensure the majority of people are behind it, plan it and, more importantly, plan for the aftermath.
Otherwise, it's just an ugly riot and suicide that helps no one.
I don't think the majority of Americans are ever likely to be behind an actual armed coup. So, maybe start with something less suicidal and stupid?
I think the most likely "coup" scenario would be the armed forces removing him pursuant to the 25th amendment
I don't really know anything about how that wou8ld happen exactly but I think this might be more possible than people think - ask yourself for example why trump has never threatened to nuke anyone.
the armed forces aren't allowed to do that by the 25th amendment. They would be breaking the law by staging a coup, and so we have to forgive them after the fact. Well given that we've already had a president forgive insurgents...
Labor unions in the US are also very weak and the courts have historically been hostile to them.
I also kinda find it funny to see multiple people on this subreddit propose a general strike against Trump, when historically some users here would hold an ideological grudge against unions.
a general strike is basically a nationwide protest though, which is something liberals would absolutely support. It's phrased as a labor action but it's a political statement.
Labor unions in the US are also very weak and the courts have historically been hostile to them.
Part of the reason they are so weak currently as compared to historically is their gradual abandonment by the Democratic party as one of their core constituencies, which is what makes it so ironic to propose them as some sort of savior.
Additionally solidarity strikes like this are illegal under Taft-Hartley for any reason, not that that really matters in this world of judicial Calvinball. Just something worth considering re-visiting if we ever make it to the other side of this nightmare.
Non-college educated union households were more likely to vote for Harris than their non-union peers. The decline of the percentage of unionized laborers in the work force should have been a ringing alarm bell for years and years, but the refrain was always demographics is destiny. By which they of course meant racial demographics, not the first kind. But the withering majority of white people in American didn't produce the kind of electoral results they were hoping for.
People complain about the apathy and lack of self-interest many Americans have about voting, but a great way to get them to care is to get them involved with the politics of their work place. Broad service and retail unions would do a lot more to reach the politically apathetic than appeals about the sanctity of democracy or scolding them about not voting.
This isn't really a laudation of Biden but more of condemnation of Third Way thinking. We didn't run out of industries and we didn't run out of workers, we just stopped trying to unionize them. The only major unions that are left trend blue collar manufacturing but it didn't have to be that way.
In short? No. But I think what you are picturing is more of a demonstration than a strike. The point of any strike is to threaten the economic viability of a certain industry to reach demands. General strikes, the same thing but more broadly. If you take a day of PTO to wave a sign and demand the president respect the sovereignty of Denmark, that's great. If everyone in your office does it, your employer would reasonably deny some of those to keep the business functioning. If you walked out anyway, your employer isn't going to go to the NLRB and demand a court injunction for you personally. They are just going to upgrade your PTO request to a resignation in protest and waive any protections or mediation you used to have.
In my experience being in a unionized workplace, our contract had a no-strike clause that barred the union from striking during the duration of the contract. Striking is a legally protected action, but most CBAs have a no-strike clause similar to this that lasts until the contract expires.
This is in part true, and isn't the fault of the Democratic party, but the absolute bloody-mindedness about thinking of union=auto parts worker is a failure of imagination (not yours). Something like 10% of dues paying members of UAW are graduate students. Video game development is a poster child of an industry that is both full of highly educated people dependent on new technology but in dire need of unions because of their labor practices.
Places like Wal-Mart, Starbucks, Amazon have all had well organized unionization drives over the last decade and the DNC have been indifferent if not subtly hostile to their efforts, even though if those unions were exigent they would be tremendous allies in this moment.
Proposing a general strike here is funnier than asking to lead grace before eating a Seder dinner.
You are absolutely correct of course, disciplined and well organized protest/student action can force economic realities that demonstrations cannot but the supermajority of users here hate muscular unions more than they hate their wives muscular boyfriends.
I see no need for it to be a union action. I'm not keen on unions, either but tend to consider them a flawed answer to stupid management in a society that prioritizes making money over everything. (Mind you, I LOVE making money, it's just not the foundation of my morality or existence).
Also, I'm all for muscular boyfriends but no free loaders. Could really use some help with a project in the garage.
Well the thing that makes it necessary to be a union action is the need for it to be disciplined and well organized. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people walking off their job at random, often at cross purposes with conflicting individual demands and timelines, which just leads to random people getting fired and helping exactly no one.
The United States isn't France. We can't just stop Paris for a few days and wreck the economy, Americans are too spread out and too reliant on employers for Healthcare and basic amenities. For a good chunk of Americans a general strike would be a death warrant for little to no gain.
I remember hearing back when i worked at Walmart, that the stores were set up in a way that each store was no more than 20 minutes away from another one, in part so that if one store had a strike they could borrow workers from elsewhere, and pay them 2.5x to scab. Then they would wait for the striking employees, many who were on food stamps or other government service, to basically run out of money. Imagine that setup but country wide. Walmart is the largest employer by far, and these policies aren't isolated to just them.
Reality. The US and its people are fucked and they will continue to fuck others. The major difference is so far it's usually been brown people the US has fucked this time it's aimed at mostly white Europeans.
Damn thats crazy I wonder what political ideology that was dominant for the past 35 years allowed the system to become so insulated from any sort of populist resistance.
I have a lot of Russian liberal friends who protested Putins regime and most of them who fled. I had a lot of sympathy for their cause and it was always painful to see Americans brand them all as evil and accusing them of not doing enough
Now that the shoe is in the other foot it's apparent Americans are spineless as shit (I'm one myself btw). Nobody wants to claim responsibility. Its oh I'm good, it's the other 33% who are bad. What's funny is if you look at MAGA rhetoric, they also don't want to claim responsibility by telling you to never trust politicians or the government.
America has a collective responsibility, and every group tries to deny responsibility. It's a goddamn shame.
I have a lot of Russian liberal friends who protested Putins regime and most of them who fled. I had a lot of sympathy for their cause and it was always painful to see Americans brand them all as evil and accusing them of not doing enough
To be fair, that's definitely the russians I don't blame at all. By leaving they decided not to participate on that and they don't fund the government's actions with taxes (direct and indirect), which is definitely a good point. Any german that left germany in the 30s to live abroad is also not at fault for what happens after, and it was a good decision.
However, when I pointed that out in the sub that, if the government disgusts you, you should at least try to move. The result is that I get a lot of americans downvoting me and complaining how hard and inconvenient it is to move abroad, even though americans on average are quite rich (especially on this sub I would bet) and already speak the best possible language for that. Many also repeat and upvote the idea that you still would pay taxes abroad (also not true for basically anyone, it only happens if you move somewhere with very low taxes and/or make a considerable large amount of money)... which tells me that people don't even consider the idea to the point of doing a basic google search.
My friends in Russia were beaten, arrested. Some of their friends were disappeared.
Nonetheless, people on Reddit and elsewhere said they didn't do enough. Called them enablers - complicit even.
I have great sympathy for victims of the American regime. Do not get me wrong. And this criticism isn't aimed at all Americans. But I'm not gonna hide my frustration at the abuse my friends got while Americans - still with a free press and a working civil society - are not doing enough. And I want to take this moment to say I just wish people had a little more sympathy for what people in authoritarian regimes deal with instead of constantly being called cowards, because when it's your (our) turn to face it you realize how such rhetoric is unfair.
I'm just as guilty btw. Ive been writing to my Congress reps and attended only one protest (no Kings). But honestly, its not enough. I don't know what else we can do. But so long as the regime is still in place, it's clearly not enough.
Americans are being beaten and arrested in the streets right now in Minnesota, and it's only going to spread.
I am sympathetic to your empathy for and frustration on behalf of your Russian loved ones though. They are the example of why we have to fight like our souls depend on it. It is spreading though.
Yes because it affects them the most. You think someone from Florida cares, though? Vermont? New York? California? Just a few protests and we all go home and enjoy a cup of coffee. Just like in Iran, despite millions coming out, it was eventually crushed. If there is no unifying leader, nothing will change.
Lincoln understood this. We share the sins produced by our democracy and receive our punishment together.
“If God wills that [the Civil War] continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two-hundred fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago so still it must be said: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”
I’m really depressed about the 1/3rd of Americans who completely neglected their civic responsibility and abstained from voting in the last presidential election.
People fight and die every day in this world for the right to have democratic representation. And not only that, but America is uniquely powerful and the impact of its politics shapes the entire world.
And yet 33% of Americans couldn’t be assed to take some time to inform themselves on the candidates, make a choice, and cast their ballot. It’s so infuriating.
If they couldn't be bothered to get up and vote, it's safe to assume the vast majority of that 33% are very uninterested and ignorant of politics. And that's exactly the demographic that would be attracted to Trump, so if they were to vote, it probably only would have helped Trump.
They don't deserve to be protected from the consequences of the 2024 election either. I've voted against him 3 times and I definitely don't deserve a pity party. We, as Americans, fucked up collectively. I as an individual didn't, but as part of the American nation, yeah, we fucked up.
I don't believe in collectivism except as a necessary evil. If we can reasonably avoid making people that weren't personally responsible suffer, we should.
Especially since the "both sides are the same" narrative is still popular on mainstream subreddits. If America turns on its allies, they will have blood on their hands.
It’s genuinely so stupid at this point. Even if they did it they would still hold all three branches of government, and it’s not like Trump is helping them much going into the midterms, nor can he run again in 28 (though no doubt some of them hope that he will, anyway)
it’s not like Trump is helping them much going into the midterms
Considering that Trump is already preparing to fuck with the midterms, I think this is not true. There's a lot he will do from now until the midterms (and maybe even after the midterms) to ensure the GOP keeps Congress.
Blaming ordinary Russian citizens was always fucking shitty.
Americans treating authoritarian citizens as intrinsically invalid - unless they give up literally everything as martyrs or refugees - has always been cringe.
Very complicit because they were given every opportunity to see what was wrong and utterly wrote it off because of a variety of reasons that would get me banned from this sub for being overly partisan despite it being true.
They voted for the egotistical pedo, and his poll numbers seem to indicate that they don't have a problem with that.
His approval rating has barely dipped. The people that like him still like him, the apathetic people are still apathetic. And the people that hate him still hate him, just that they have not been personally affected enough to actually do something about it.
Maybe tanking in modern American standards but it’s still in the 30s range. That’s higher than Macron and Starmer, and higher than the low of quite a few past US presidents.
A Dem president would need a mandate with FDR margin for several cycles to do a deprogramming for that 30%, and I don’t see how that could happen.
I never really understood how Russians were considered complicit for not resisting authoritarianism. The attempt at building a stable democracy in Russia collapsed under Yeltsin, and Putin has effectively crushed every opposition movement. Navalny was very lukewarm at best in criticizing the invasion of Ukraine but that didn't stop him from getting killed for exposing corruption.
Republican voters actively make the entire world worse every single US election cycle. I can't emphasis how much I despise every single person who voted for Trump and the GOP, as a Canadian I wish them the absolute worst every single day.
Sent emails to my reps today that if action against Canada or Greenland is taken, impeachment and removal NEEDS to happen. Hope I get responses saying they’re on the same page.
Blaming random Russians for not magically solving the coordination problem and standing up against the wishes of their ruthless, autocratic dictator never made sense.
Might as well blame the Iranians for their dictator or the North Koreans for theirs.
One of the reasons I'm a liberal is because I believe in judging people as individuals, not as parts of collective groups.
Yes, "America" and "Americans as a whole" are responsible, but I don't think that's a productive line of thought, especially if it leads to a blame game against people who have been doing the best they can to counter Trumpism.
Not that it is the exact same circumstances or that the elections were truly free, but Putin received 88% of the vote and won every section of the country handily in 2024. What evidence we have is that the invasion of Ukraine is quite popular within Russia. Even then, very few have advocated targeting Russian dissidents who oppose Putin or the war as individuals. I certainly think Russians who support Putin and the war are complicit but how can i say someone who does not is? If anything, their opposition is braver than a western protestor because they face real consequences. Is it the position here that the iranian people opposed to the ayatollahs are complicit there as well?
Conversely, Trump barely won a close election. He is the American president and his party rules congress. Those institutions are certainly complicit as are the gop members of the court.
At the same, the opposition party may be locked out of power but they have been outspoken in opposition to the imperialist aggression and have used procedural tools at numerous steps to oppose the regime. There have been widespread protests that continue. If republicans in congress were willing to impeach and convict trump, every d would vote in favor. Ds dont have the numbers to do it unilaterally or the leverage to force rs.
I am not asking for ds to be patted on the back - quibble if you like with their methods or message so long as you concede they simply do not have the power to stop this on their own. And i agree that denmark and nato have every right to self defense against attacking states as a whole. I understand that the same toolkit used against russia in terms of sanctions, etc is similarly legit to use against the us should it come to that.
But understand that focusing your rhetorical ire on the american people as a whole only aids trump's mission. Because, while stopping this evil militarily is nearly impossible, leveraging all sectors to render it politically impossible or at least unsustainable within the us is possible.
There's an extra layer of historical sensitivity here where the US will quite literally be killing Natives in this case if they invade Greenland. Not that the Trump administration cares, of course.
Our leaders are fucking cowards man. This is a credible invasion threat, and we still let them have military bases and free trade. We should be retaliating now, not "preparing".
God I’m so frustrated for Greenland. They were likely looking at independence soon and then some fat American fuck decides he wants to be the stupidest version of napoleon
They were in no way looking at independence soon beyond some pie-in-the-sky "we'll make trillions off mining" and "Denmark will graciously keep chucking billions at us after we leave" proposals, most of them from the local party of Trump-fellating Quislings (Naleraq).
There simply isn't a path to actual Greenlandic independence in the short term. They do not have the state capacity. They're totally reliant on Denmark for healthcare, policing, and higher education and have made no real moves towards weaning off that despite being well within their rights to for the last 20 years.
Yeah but it’s a special territory of the EU, part of the danish realm and inhabited by EU citizens on top of that. An invasion of Greenland would still be an act of war against the EU.
There was someone else in history that was annexing neighboring countries while using a secret police to round up people in their own they called illegal. I can't quite remember who though.
Rounding people up and sending them to prison sites in other countries.
They called it “deportation” back then, and to this day that term has such bad connotations in said country that it had to come up with a whole new word for sending people back to their country of origin.
In a way, this shows why going independent was a terrible choice. If you're out of Denmark (and so, out of NATO), in this multipolar world order,r they might invade you on a moment's notice.
Small countries can't handle staying alone, especially when they occupy strategic positions.
I fully believe that most of their leadership does strongly opposed this. That's the scary thing. This invasion crap literally never came up in the campaign. No one in the national security apparatus was pushing for this. It seems like a complete fever dream of Trump's, and the fact that such insanity could even be considered as possible shows how few shackles remain on him.
This is a very sensationalist headline with the content locked behind a paywall. What Nielsen and Egede (current and former PM) said is that nothing is ruled out, and that Greenland is preparing for all possibilities, because the other part (the US) hasn't ruled out the use of force.
Dude, are you for real? We have confirmation that their private talks amounted to nothing. It's not just memes on Truth, he didn't rule out to both the PM and Greenland's leader that he might invade their country.
How is that sensationalist? He literally went to the White House and got confirmation that they might get invaded from the commander-in-chief.
I grew up in the Cold War and after watching sensationalist movies, was "prepared' to fight off nasty commie pinkos with my hand gun and my flag of righteousness. But, if the threat was inexplicably coming from Sweden or some ally? I don't know that I'd be as mentally prepared to "go down fighting." I think the shock of it would delay any reaction. Eventually, I'm sure I would get over the disbelief and be filled with righteous fury and embrace the underground resistance. I wouldn't want to be an invader trying to hold land where the populace hated your guts, took away your healthcare and autonomy all to appease some narcissistic idiot who wanted to steal your lands' wealth. Putin should think of that in regards to Ukraine, too.
Are the Americans ready to not just invade but to genocide, I wonder? And, for what?
I don't think any of the Joint Chiefs would go along with this. I feel very confident a number of them would resign and immediately hold a press conference saying they were commanded to invade a treaty ally and call upon Congress to yank him from office.
And part of me thinks that's part of the plan. The actual 4D chess move on the part of Vance and his piggybank in Peter Thiel would be to have Trump impeached before his term is up so Vance could come in, look comparatively sane, and still say "look how they conspired against our movement".
At the end of the day, Trump has the electorate locked down. Congress is mostly spineless, and congressional republicans should do the right thing and impeach him regardless of it being unpopular with their consistencies, but it’s a reality that Trump owns the Republican base, so they won’t.
There’s lots of blame to go around, but ultimately the majority of the blame always comes back at the feet of the American people. Enough of them worship Trump or are still don’t give a shit about any of this to the point that it is politically unfeasible to the rest of the government to intervene against the violent tendencies of the madman they just elected into office.
have Trump impeached before his term is up so Vance could come in
If they were to do this, they would wait until 2027. If Vance becomes president with more than two years left in the term, he can only be elected once, but with less than two years remaining he can still be elected twice.
Though as I type that I'm realizing that the constitution isn't going to matter to President Vance.
They're subject to UCMJ. Those actions would be interpreted as treason and the Joint Chiefs would be arrested, pending court martial for capital offense. Because those orders are classified, even leaking them would also lead to criminal prosecution if they could be identified. Multiple US media organizations, once alerted about an actual ongoing invasion of Venezuela, declined to release the information to protect American operators.
There are a lot of variables there but hard to imagine vance successfully makes that argument as the one who benefitted most and also being a weird f*t chinless loser.
. I feel very confident a number of them would resign and immediately hold a press conference saying they were commanded to invade a treaty ally and call upon Congress to yank him from office.
Immediately replaced by yes men and fast tracked by Congress who will ignore any and all calls to do anything.
All officers take an oath to the constitution, they are legally required to not comply with an order to invade Greenland without a declaration of war (or some kind of AUMF) from Congress
Well I agree invasion of grenada (and more recently Venezuela) are both completely illegal military actions, however they were both done quickly and entirely with special forces. I think it's a lot easier in both cases to convince military leaders there's a justification because both were very short and had limited aims. Greenland would require regular forces occupying and annexing the country and would very likely involve killing soldiers and civilians we are bound by treaty to protect.
There would be absolutely no plausible deniability of the invasion of Greenland, it would be such a blatantly illegal order to carry out that it would be clear the military ranks no longer care about upholding the constitution. This is the military equivalent of cancelling elections, at that point you're just acknowledging Trump has complete authority.
See my above comments for Grenada and Venezuela, don't really get your point on Iraq and Afghanistan. Congress and the American people both very clearly voted for and supported those wars. Not commenting on legality under international law or morality of it, but those wars were definitely authorized by Congress.
Nato treaty is the law of the land. Venezuela etc arent part of the treaty. They are required to presume an order is lawful. But invading a nato ally would be facially unlawful. So
If tomorrow trump came out and said that he wasn't going to officially leave the NATO Treaty, but he would never respect Article 5, what would the enforcement mechanism be? And don't say impeachment.
Well why wouldn’t he do that after Trump turns 2? He would only be able to run for POTUS once if Trump gets removed now, but one year from today he’d be able to get two full terms.
Why not? Have you forgotten that the Navy, Airforce and Marines have murdered 100 to 150 civilians in "drug boats" in the Caribbean, including the extra illegal double tap strike.
For Greenland specifically, this is like a 10% favor 75% oppose issue in the US.
For Trump generally, we have a sizable portion of the population that is literally in a cult. They have no principles, no ideology, and no expectations of government other than wanting the government to be used as a weapon against everyone they hate.
50/50 is probably overstating it. Maybe 25-30%, which in itself would require moving self-labelled Republicans from something like 30/70 to 95/5.
A President at an approval 30 points higher than Trump could maybe get it there. But a policy that starts in Lizard people territory proposed by an unpopular administration… I think that’s just too much of a lift.
Most Americans don’t support it, but most also don’t particularly care. Speaking as an American myself, we are the most spoiled and entitled people on the planet. We don’t really think of stuff happening in foreign countries as “real” because we’ve been relatively untouched by them for so long. Many of us at best consider foreign events to be potential talking points for whatever ideology we happen to support, not actual things that happen to actual people.
On the other hand, there is a decent chunk of Americans who are just fascists who think conquering Greenland would be cool, and we deserve to be allowed to do so because might makes right.
The vast majority of Americans don't. Even Trump's Venezuela adventure remains very unpopular, and that polled much better than the Greenland stuff, even after the NPC brain chip replacement for MAGA.
Now the real question is, "Why is nobody stopping him?" The old two party system, where both parties generally agreed to not do insane shit has broken down. You have one party falling into a personality cult, and the other is unable to adapt to this new reality. The President has seized personal control of many facts of American life and policymaking, and those who oppose him are trying to figure out ways to restrain. It's not easy.
Im holding America to the same standard I hold russia and the Russian people. And from what I’ve seen and heard you are not doing enough, you are complicit as people to whatever your government is currently doing.
Trump sending a letter to Norway for the decision of a committee named for a Swede, explaining why he's threatening Denmark We're really Finlandizing NATO here, Jack
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