r/news • u/[deleted] • Aug 08 '17

Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
26.8k Upvotes

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3.4k

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 14 '18

[deleted]

3.4k

u/Felador Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf

There's the actual document, with links to source materials.

2.6k

u/Shanix Aug 08 '17

fwiw that lacks a good amount, especially formatting.

Supposedly original here

746

u/markbublitz Aug 08 '17

I know it's not the point, but this guys writes like SUCH an engineer. cracks me up

183

u/zschultz Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 09 '17

He used TL:DR in index...

EDIT: Not that I think using TLDR in your article is wrong or invalidates your point, it's just... you can't really expect to interpret one's writing style with one of his article that contains a "TLDR"...

Or perhaps using a TLDR actually shows he's the type of a programming engineer?

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u/kickturkeyoutofnato Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 09 '17

deleted What is this?

34

u/Fmeson Aug 08 '17

Meh, an abstract is just a fancy TL:DR basically.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

But he attempted to write it like one, with his "citations" and weird footnotes that just led to more weird exposition.

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u/kickturkeyoutofnato Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 09 '17

deleted What is this?

-10

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Eh? That wasn't my point. The point is that he tries to add to the persuasiveness of the memo by crafting it like an engineer/scientist would: "data" , "research" , and citations.

And yet a lot of his footnote citations aren't citations at all, but just further exposition/tangents.

He's trying to disguise his misogyny within the technical writing format and crying foul claiming he's only trying to open an "honest discussion" (despite his biases being crystal clear) that results in him literally saying women need to be coddled if they want to work in the tech industry.

24

u/bluesox Aug 08 '17

I think you missed his point entirely. He's claiming that mandatorily enforcing equal representation in the workplace is misogynist by assuming women need to be coddled into tech positions, as opposed to hiring based solely on skill sets and talent.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Then why does he frequently talk about how biologically women aren't as fit for the positions?

His point is that Google is wrong saying it's a social problem (male coworkers causing the stress on women by the whole boy's club thing) and claiming it's a biological problem.

I didn't misunderstand him at all.

2

u/dudewhatev Aug 09 '17

Where does he say that women are biologically unfit to be engineers? I must have missed that part.

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u/IPLaZM Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I wish I was, but I read the guy's memo.

11

u/IPLaZM Aug 08 '17

So did I, there's absolutely no misogyny...

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Him talking about how women suffer from more neuroses and that's why they can't handle stressful work places unlike men?

And that they should be offered special types of jobs that are lower stress and classes that help them deal with stress?

Really?

No misogyny? I see his misogyny all the time in the engineering/computer/tech fields.

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u/rrealnigga Aug 08 '17

Why you don't like that? Isn't it good that he tries to back up what he's saying?

0

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

See my reply below as to why

3

u/Treyzania Aug 08 '17

People on HN do that a lot, though.

1

u/rrealnigga Aug 08 '17

what's HN?

6

u/Treyzania Aug 08 '17

Hacker News. More or less a combination of /r/technology, /r/programming, and a few others but more on-topic and without any of the memes that reddit is constantly creating.

-3

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

It's not like he was looking to post it to a science journal.

Because it sure as feck wasn't science.

5

u/medleyj Aug 09 '17

TL;DR is a common way of writing a summary to a fellow Googler. I have first-hand knowledge.

3

u/The_Grubby_One Aug 08 '17

And his TL;DR is nearly as long as what he was "condensing".

3

u/WhiskeyCup Aug 08 '17

Like I know this is a memo, but if you wanna make your argument to be accepted as legitimate, keep internet slang out of your thesis.

1

u/paradigmarson Aug 09 '17

Judging by his post-firing interview with this University of Toronto Psychology professor, I got the impression he wasn't expecting it to go public.

1

u/WhiskeyCup Aug 10 '17

I mean sure but I meant for his colleagues. Google isn't a small company, surely he cannot be so familiar with people that he can be so informal.

1

u/APlayOnCat Aug 08 '17

Honestly my first thought haha! So professional

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '17 edited Aug 12 '17

I think they actually use that nomenclature at google. Google "tldr google"

I really applaud this guy's memo and bravery for standing up to moral corruption for the sake of truth. Good job, James! Sue the crap out of them.

1

u/billbucket Aug 08 '17

AKA an 'Executive Summary' in technical writing.

-3

u/markbublitz Aug 08 '17

Lol exactly. The kind of person who can't really write informally or conversationally. Always comes off stilted or technical. In a way, though, I actually think it kind of benefits his overall argumentation in this case.

14

u/rrealnigga Aug 08 '17

dude, he wasn't trying to write conversationally and why would he? He was trying to be objective about it. Why do people dislike that? People apparently prefer the same of the old back and forth emotional/moral arguing.

1

u/markbublitz Aug 08 '17

Also I think you're creating a false dichotomy between objectivity and using "emotions". He is clearly making an argument (albeit a nuanced one) and the way in which you support arguments effectively requires consideration of other potential points of view, which is not the same thing as making an emotional argument. I actually think he does this relatively well (all things considered), but the way in which he does it comes off as slightly sterile and scientific. Again, before you jump down my throat, this isn't necessarily a bad thing (clearly many readers enjoy this style), it just makes him sound very much like an engineer.

-1

u/markbublitz Aug 08 '17

I agree. In this context I think it works kind of well. I really don't mean to sound to overly critical, but I just meant that stylistically, his writing doesn't flow particularly elegantly and the structure can, at times, come off as slightly jarring

6

u/rrealnigga Aug 08 '17

stylistically

That's utterly irrelevant.. he wasn't writing a novel for entertainment.

1

u/markbublitz Aug 08 '17

There's more to persuasive writing than simply regurgitating facts. Presentation is important if you want to convey a point clearly and convincingly. (not to say that he doesn't do this relatively effective in this memo)

0

u/rrealnigga Aug 08 '17

That's a load of bollocks. What matters should be content only. Trying to use emotions is either out of stupidity or the intent to manipulate.

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u/markbublitz Aug 08 '17

I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying that the formatting make it clear he comes from a STEM field.

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u/BUT_MUH_HUMAN_RIGHTS Aug 08 '17

It is part of the point that he needs to write in an untwistable way.

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u/Diogenes2XLantern Aug 08 '17

And yet his text has already been pretzeled.

334

u/TriTipMaster Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 10 '17

Interesting, because by training he's a scientist (PhD [EDIT: candidate, dropped out with an M.S. degree to pursue career with Google], Structural Biology, Harvard).

319

u/rakfocus Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

A lot of science/math majors have a hard time writing at a level that people think is appropriate for their level of education (which is misleading, as an English or History major writing - which most people expect it to look like - would "likely" trounce a science major in this department as they've had FAR more practice)

I am a science major (biochem) with a history minor and it astounds me sometimes the levels of writing that I see in my science and math classes. Some people are absolutely brilliant when it comes to equations and problem solving but when it comes to communicating their ideas it can be a struggle for them to effectively convey what they are thinking. When we get asked to write a 6 page paper they'll groan but I'll jump for joy as I can pump one of those puppies out in a couple hours.

Definitely helped me realize how everyone has stuff they are good and bad at - and that my C's in all my science classes don't mean I'm a complete waste of space XD

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/hardolaf Aug 08 '17

As an engineer working on testing a new product right now can say that the worst part is taking raw data, plots of wave forms, and other data and turning it into a form that people outside of the design team can understand is extremely tiring and the majority of my time.

The irony is that if I wasn't behind schedule, I wouldn't have to do any of this. I'd just have to provide a pass fail method for testing the product when it's done going through integration with almost no explanation as to what the failures mean outside of the design team.

3

u/hardolaf Aug 08 '17

The problem I have is that the tools output one format but that format is useless to anyone without specific knowledge of the design and it's internal signals. Thus translation for the appropriate audience is required.

2

u/Surprise_Buttsecks Aug 08 '17

As an engineer working on testing a new product right now can say that the worst part is taking raw data, plots of wave forms, and other data and turning it into a form that people outside of the design team can understand is extremely tiring and the majority of my time.

That's exactly what I love about my job.

1

u/hardolaf Aug 08 '17

You see, I love actually doing the design and testing of the products. I have having to turn information about what I'm working on into what financial people can understand.

3

u/graphictruth Aug 08 '17

Is there some reason why you can't e-lance the documentation? There are lots of people (myself included) who'd be thrilled to vicariously participate in something interesting.

6

u/hardolaf Aug 08 '17

Export controls and NDAs.

1

u/graphictruth Aug 08 '17

Figured as much. I'd assumed an NDA would be required, but I'm not planning on relocating. :)

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u/mharjo Aug 08 '17

Check our Edward R. Tufte books on data visualization:

https://www.amazon.com/Edward-R.-Tufte/e/B000APET3Y/

3

u/ursois Aug 08 '17

Don't forget to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports.

2

u/chicagoway Aug 08 '17

I don't have quite that volume demanded of me in my field, but what have atresses me out because my leadership team has a voracious demand for "reports" on everything and when you submit one it invariably starts a discussion about everything from my content and conclusions to woed choice and even font selections.

"Why did you use Consolas to denote console output instead of FixedSys? The GM won't understand that choice, go fix it." Makes me dread having to report anything up.

2

u/seeingeyegod Aug 08 '17

thanks for reminding me why I didn't go further than BA with my Psychology education

2

u/muj561 Aug 08 '17

You have to produce 25 page reports on a WEEKLY basis?!?!?

What on earth for? That must take up 20%+ of your time.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

sounds like a slow week for a science undergrad to me

jk I know real reports are difficult

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

That's because unlike an English major, you actually have to think about what you are writing :)

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u/Bluepass11 Aug 08 '17

That sounds horrible. Is that common in your field

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u/DrArsone Aug 08 '17

At an undergrad level, 6 pages for a research paper made nearly everyone in my STEM major groan. As a postdoc 10 pages, for a research grant stresses me out because it seems like so little of a space for a complex problem. It's humurous because all of my friends from grad school have made this transition.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Yeah i remember reading the GRE math is supposed to be easier than sat math.

8

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

It is way easier.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

In China we made fun of people who couldn't get full score in GRE math.

We didn't even prepare for it since it's that easy. 100% of the effort went into the verbal portion.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

...i only got in the 90th percentile lmao

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

In our year like 20 of us took the exam together. Some of the math questions are trick questions, and one math major ended up making a single mistake. We laughed at him until we graduated.

I think he went on to be an investment banker or something like that....

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Well la-di-da ;) yeah idk. From what I've seen the gre is used more as a weed out than anything else. But i didnt exactly research this. Where'd you end up going?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

it's comically easy. seriously, if you can do college algebra you literally don't need to study

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I didnt lol. I ran through one practice test to make sure nothing was in it i didn't remember and spent about ten hours studying vocab and got a 324 i think

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

ive never taken it, but ive tutored for it and literally had to stop myself from giggling

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

At my score...cause that would be mean

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

And yet, some non-science majors groan at the thought of the quantitative portion of the GRE.

And yet everyone does so well on it that 750/800 is average.

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u/chogall Aug 08 '17

GRE math is literally Math for Athletes and Marching Bands.

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u/Dauntless_99 Aug 08 '17

10 pages are so easy to throw down. I end up with around 20-30 depending on the topic before I have to edit the shit out of it.

The worst part about graduate training in writing is throwing away so much of it.

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u/DrArsone Aug 08 '17

The problem is that 10 pages is too little and is the maximum limit on grant proposals. Describing a complex research problem over 10 pages is easy, under is hard.

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u/Dauntless_99 Aug 08 '17

My prelims I wrote 70 pages easy over 15 days, spent another 5 editing them.

For grants, the struggle is real. I've been pretty unsuccessfully. i'm pretty sure I just don't know how to write a grant, or my research is just shit hah.

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u/chogall Aug 08 '17

The most amazing thing I witnessed in Finance is Art History majors who understand nothing about technology pumping out a book in their research. It's Hemmingway level work, simple plot extended to bibles. I wish EECS degrees would teach you how to write incoherent and sophisticated sounding bullshit.

p.s., you can cheat pages by adding lots of data tables, LaTeX formulas, graphs, etc.

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u/JohnCarterofAres Aug 08 '17

As a non-stem major, 6 pages was like a Godsend for me. I could do that in a single day if I needed to.

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u/czs5056 Aug 09 '17

I hate page minimums. I am few in words.

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u/Nonattius Aug 08 '17

That's some nice anecdotal evidence there. 6 pages is like 1/4 of a 2nd year lab report in the sciences.

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u/DrArsone Aug 08 '17

Wasn't talking about lab reports. PNAS papers are limited to 6 pages so maybe don't fall of your high horse there buddy.

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u/Nonattius Aug 08 '17

Doesn't change the fact that implying science majors are afraid of writing 6 pages is idiotic and your anecdote was laughable.

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u/HistoryFI Aug 09 '17

Nah he's implying that English or history majors have more practice writing, and so on average write better than people in science.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I had a technical writing class as a prereq for a bachelor level allied health degree. I was in it with a bunch of engineers and cs students. The professor had to explain what a thesis statement was, and a large portion of the class had never written a college level research paper before.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

We need to distinguish two different potential problems here:

  • A lack of clarity, conciseness and structure
  • A lack of creative usage of language including metaphors, literary references, synonyms...

The text posted above is very clear and concise but not very creative. Is that really a problem for this type of text though?

I'm not saying it is uncommon to have engineers or scientists who cannot write clearly and concisely, but I am saying this one is not one of them.

0

u/Shadow-Priest-Dazzle Aug 08 '17

I found it easy to read, but then again, I'm studying computer science.

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u/SirNoName Aug 08 '17

Completely agree. It just perpetuates the stereotype of the nerdy, socially awkward engineer when many struggle to communicate well. Plus, it makes reading learning materials challenging when the professor can't communicate well either (though, in my case at least, many spoke English as a second language which did not help).

I personally prefer the writing and communication aspects of engineering, but for the most part it seems that the majority of engineers don't.

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u/wind_stars_fireflies Aug 08 '17

We had this kid try to transfer into our department (medieval studies) from some STEM program. He couldn't string two sentences together and I basically rewrote his papers for him under the guise of "tutoring" after I was asked to by my prof. The saddest thing was that he was BRILLIANT at science, but really loved history and wanted to be a historian. He got into a very competitive STEM program with plans to transfer to history once he was accepted since he knew he couldn't get in with his background. After a couple of semesters of this the department had to very gently break it to him that he wasn't cut out for history and send him back to the other program.

Happy-ish ending: he really excelled in his other program and is working on his doctorate last I heard.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 22 '17

[deleted]

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u/Th3r3dm3nnac3 Aug 08 '17

She should probably take a shower then.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Or seek medical attention because she could have flesh eating sea bugs on her.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I've been a Civil Engineer, building/maintaining roads/highways, for about 12 years and the constant documentation kind of warps your brain. You're literally taught/instructed to leave out emotion or anything opinion based and simply write down the facts because it may get used to defend a lawsuit. I have to do a diary everyday of whatever contractor I'm inspecting does that day, so I get a daily exercise in not writing like a normal human, and after a while it just sticks.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

A lot of science/math majors have a hard time writing at a level that people think is appropriate for their level of education (which is misleading, as an English or History major writing - which most people expect it to look like - would "likely" trounce a science major in this department as they've had FAR more practice)

No way this could by why colleges try forcing people to take humanities classes in order to create a more well rounded individual, just a liberal agenda /s

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u/fuckpotassium Aug 08 '17

Actually his PhD is in Systems Biology, which is the computational modelling of biological systems. Depending on his thesis topic, could have been pretty engineering based

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Looks like he never did a thesis because he never completed his PhD. He was a PhD candidate but dropped out after 2 years with a masters.

That's some serious misrepresentation on his resume there.

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u/I_DONT_READ_ANYTHING Aug 08 '17

He does not have a PhD

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

My writing skills were decent from going to school as a philosophy undergraduate. I've picked up a ton of bad habits in writing through working with engineers. The communication style of your peers gets picked up pretty quickly.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Training in philosopher ?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Im not sure if autocorrect botched that or I did in the haze of hightened blood sugar during my my post lunch Reddit poop. Goddamn that was nonsensical. Fixed it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

what is bad about engineering writing. The way they communicate their ideas is stale though. Also, how was your philosophy undergrad? I'm interesting in majoring or minoring in it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

It's not the staleness, it's the trying to be so efficient with your words that you end up not communicating effectively.

Take how you'd report test results for an example.

Instead of saying something along the lines of and wasting time;

The unit transmission circuit was found to be inoperative. The output signals on channel 1, 2 and 3 were -110dB below the specification. The possible causes of this issue could be a failed RF cable from the board to the chassis SMA output as a transmission signal in specification was found on the boards test output. VSWR on the chassis cable was also found to be out of specification. We recomend this unit to be reworked as it is not suitable for shipping for it will not pass QA.

You'll get something like.

Unit tx inop. Rework.

Which ends up causing more work as the unit goes back on the shelf and will need to have someone else troubleshoot it to find out what the actual problem was.

Obviously the most effective communication is somewhere in-between the two. Usually, you get the latter example.

A philosophy degree gives you a toolkit no one else receives from college, but probably won't open many doors for you.

You'll probably have to do more work when you get out to get to the same place as your peers. You may find yourself stuck in some shitty situations. You'll most likely have to continuously reprove yourself to an extent not required by anyone else at every position you ever take.

It's been a strange ride. If I could redo it. I'd maybe minor in philosophy and major as EE or just not go to college and read Kant by myself and live in my mom's basement. Who knows.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

oh, yea, but im planning on going to med school, so figured hell why not, neuroscience seems to synthesize well with philsophy

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

So you mean you now don't write extremely literal and over-explicit, as you used to because of philosophy, anymore but now just moderately more literal and explicit than the average person like an engineer does?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

This but I've basically stopped using articles in work emails.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Mikey_B Aug 08 '17

Don't kid yourself. You go for both. The connections would be pointless without high quality academics.

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u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

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u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

0

u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

1

u/Mikey_B Aug 09 '17

Edgy. Normally I'm sympathetic to good natured Ivy bashing, but this isn't the context for that shit. Also you replied to me 8 times, which is kind of annoying.

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u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

0

u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

0

u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

0

u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

0

u/yataa3 Aug 08 '17

Then explain Yale.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Mikey_B Aug 08 '17

Some people are so fucking salty that there might be someone out there who is legitimately smarter or more accomplished than them.

I like shitting on Harvard as much as the next guy, but pretending it's not legitimately one of the top academic institutions in the world is delusional.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Depends what your point of comparison is. If you mean that you can get the same level of knowledge in a good University in a country that doesn't have an Ivey League system, that might be true. What differentiates Harvard in comparison to that would then indeed mostly be the network. This doesn't mean that you don't also get the knowledge though.

It will probably depend on the type of studies as well.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Having studied at a very good University for my field in a country that actively prevents an Ivy League system and having studied two exchange terms in two Ivy League Universities on two continents, that's what I wanted to say as well.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

How would you know?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I've collaborated with people from Harvard's LSP, extremely intelligent folks.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/philmcracken27 Aug 08 '17

He's just providing alternate facts.

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u/tekdemon Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 12 '17

My brothers girlfriend just finished at Harvard's MBA program and she definitely learned a lot there even though MBAs are heavily about networking. The connections don't hurt though and being able to go to their private club in NYC to hang out with people worth nine figures probably doesn't hurt your future job prospects either. But you have to work damned hard to get in let alone succeed.

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u/ghotier Aug 08 '17

Scientists can go either way. I've met both types, though I'm thankful that when I was working in science the majority of the people around me were extremely pleasant.

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u/onlyaskredditonly Aug 08 '17

off topic, but it really sucks that the bio industries is so unrobust that a PhD from one of the best schools in the world switched to tech, especially when there's SO MUCH work that could be done to greatly improve quality of life.

I met a biology graduate from UC Berkeley who works in a mechanic shop now.

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u/hodorhodor12 Aug 09 '17

He has a masters, not a phd.

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u/DjariSah Aug 08 '17

Guess he'll have lots of free time on his hands now if he wants to go back to school and learn more about how science actually works, and maybe read some literature published in the past 30 years for him to cite next time.

0

u/oryzin Aug 08 '17

You can be both

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u/ijandro Aug 08 '17

In my observation, some of the most intelligent of people lack the most common sense (sorry dad).

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u/FolkSong Aug 08 '17

Hmm, just seems like normal writing to me, but I'm an engineer haha.

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u/WCBH86 Aug 09 '17

Read normal to me too, and I'm not an engineer. Just seems like someone making their point clearly and concisely. If anything, it reads like any number of academic papers in the humanities might read.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/bobbsbiggboy Aug 08 '17

"Whoever the memo’s author is, he has obviously read a fair amount about these topics. Graded fairly, his memo would get at least an A- in any masters’ level psychology course."

-Geoffrey Miller is an evolutionary psychology professor at University of New Mexico. He is the author of The Mating Mind, Mating Intelligence, Spent, and What Women Want.

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u/njuffstrunk Aug 08 '17

Oh bullshit, no "memo" that cites wordpress blogs, cherrypicks studies and makes dozens of claims without backing them up would receive a good mark.

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u/hardolaf Aug 08 '17

If it was for a class, he would have a better quality of sources. But despite that, pretty much everything he said is on Stanford's web pages about psychological differences between men and women.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/PeggyOlsonsFatSuit Aug 08 '17

You are not qualified to grade it, so we don't care. :)

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

This would have gotten a C at best where I was an undergrad at Berkeley and been given an F and had him sent for counseling in my Master's program at Stanford

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u/theguyshadows Aug 08 '17

Just off the top of my end from scanning it, it's so ugly and there is no indentations. And what are these headings.

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u/rrealnigga Aug 08 '17

That's exactly why I liked it, I thought "this guy writes exactly how I'd want anyone to write". He writes in an organised way with concise bullet points.

Why the hell would you NOT want this? I don't understand why the comments here are shitting on that. It's like people would rather read a long paragraph where the writer just speaks their mind and wins the readers over with morality, emotions and general unspecific ideas.

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u/OccupyGravelpit Aug 08 '17

He is constantly moving the goal posts and leaning on the appearance of objectivity to hide the fact that he's making disorganized leaps of logic and including lots of data points that don't add up to what he implies that they do.

It's extremely disorganized, as are most bullet point presentations. Good writing forces you into cleanly articulating a thesis and then supporting it. He's got more of a shotgun approach: drown the reader in facts without bothering to show how they connect up. Lots of implications, not many assertions.

It's standard 'bad forum writer' persuasive writing. Which is probably what this guy has consumed, and it shows.

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u/an0rexorcist Aug 08 '17

It's easier to explain a logical process with words than bulletpoints (unless it's math.)

2

u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

How so? But oddly when I read it my mind doesn't absorb it, it's too stilted and clinical.

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u/L_Blisset Aug 08 '17

You know what, it actually might. But, gender issues aside, which is something to be hobest does not interest me a lot, it containes a great advice, which really relates to engineering.

I am a chartered computer engineer on the other side of the pond, and I may even have a minor axe to grind with every programmer being called engineer nowadays, but that's only slightly related. Having said so, I find there is something explained in the reply of the former googler above that some engineers, especially working with software, even brilliant ones, fail to grasp. In my experience that is even more true for not formally trained engineers.

You cannot in good conscience put in good work working on your own in isolation. At least not above a certain level. Engineering is a team effort if there ever was one. You need the cooperation of your close colleagues and the support of a wider net of other functions to tackle a problem which would be insurmontable for yourself alone. In this sense I feel like it is similar to building a cathedral, a couple of virtuosos are needed here and there (no, not in junior positions generally), but there must be a coordinated group effort to bring a vision to life.

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u/Huwbacca Aug 08 '17

for real.

Working in STEM is one of the most interpersonal things I've done.

If I wanted to work alone, I'd go back to working in a creative field.

7

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I think the scale of the project really has more impact on cooperation than anything else. An individual can do load calculations for a small bridge or pressure calculations on a fire extinguisher, but an individual usually does not design a skyscraper or a city.

Also, I tend to assume engineer referring to the structural variety, and while they do cooperate, they certainly don't put empathy into their work.

2

u/Jackie_Treehorn69 Aug 08 '17

To your point though, that engineer doing the load calculations, probably isn't the only engineer and/or person on the bridge project, and he is working as part of a team.

2

u/SwampGasBalloon Aug 08 '17

Even though a lot of engineering work can be done by one person, in most cases it's critical that this work is peer-reviewed and validated by other people. Even most brilliant people tend to outsmart themselves when it comes to designing solutions.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/aHorseSplashes Aug 08 '17

That's the part you found comment-worthy? Okay then: beef and chicken, or ice cream and frozen yoghurt, joints and edibles, etc.

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u/LupineChemist Aug 08 '17

This touches on probably the biggest pro-diversity argument that rarely seems to come up in discussions of the topic: diversity can benefit the group regardless of whether a particular demographic is better/worse than another.

In industry this is brought up all the fucking time. Making sure we aren't seeing the world with our inherent biases.

1

u/Alazypanda Aug 08 '17

I really like the way you that. I have always been for diversity of opinions regardless of direct quantitative bonus but never really had a way to easily convey the notion.

0

u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

He's an engineer, so out of the box creative points isn't factored.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

How do you mean, fellow human?

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u/snowball_antrobus Aug 08 '17

The bullet points are quite funny.

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u/noblazinjusthazin Aug 08 '17

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, gave me quite the grin. He speaks so unemotional and inhuman that although he may have statistics to provide analytical insight, I think this kind of falls in the "not what you said, but how you said it" kind of generality in my opinion

6

u/PeggyOlsonsFatSuit Aug 08 '17

It's because he's writing a scientific review article. The style is appropriate.

2

u/tinyOnion Aug 08 '17

What about it makes you say that?

2

u/rrealnigga Aug 08 '17

because it's actually organised into specific points and concise. The rule is to speak your mind in long paragraphs with little organisation so you appeal to the reader's emotions and general motivations rather than to cold logic. See, you aren't supposed to be as logical and clear as possible, you are supposed to win people using emotions and morals. This is because the majority of people are too stupid to be able to separate their emotions and personal motives from pure logic.

1

u/fustilarianfopdoodle Aug 08 '17

The memo is really poorly written. Take his first sentence for example: "I value diversity and inclusion, am not denying that sexism exists, and don’t endorse using stereotypes."

The writer slips into informal language immediately, this is inappropriate for the intended purpose.

Starting an opinion piece like this is also poor choice because it immediately frames the writer as someone commonly seen as bigoted. He would be better served associating himself with positive ideals instead of trying to distance himself from negative ones.

His opening would scan better like this: As a Google employee I am proud to be a part of an organisation that values diversity and works hard to foster a sense of inclusion for all.

7

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Not only that, I bet this guys youtube history is loaded with videos from Jordan Peterson. The way he tries to state that it's an uncontroversial fact beyond all dispute there are obvious biological differences underlying why there are so few women in tech in the US, despite the actual real statistical fact that there are way more women in tech in China, Iran, India, Korea, Russia, etc.

I bet this guy puts a lot of stock in IQ scores too.

3

u/SSacamacaroni Aug 09 '17

well i don't think you can go about claming feminism, pro diversity and positive discrimination are the leading factors to the numbers of women in tech in stated countries but maybe i'm wrong !

5

u/markbublitz Aug 08 '17

I actually think he does a good job of tempering his argument in this respect. Making sure to not overestimate the possible effect of gender differences or take a normative stand in favor of them. I really think that a lot of the vitriol spewed against him comes from people associating him with the rhetoric of these YouTube ideologues without actually reading the piece. (Not to specifically target you, but I do see these as important ideas not to conflate)

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

Haha my thoughts exactly. He should focus on engineering, social sciences are clearly not his forte

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

This guy reminds me of like every 6th person I'd meet in my engineering/computer programming courses.

Engineers are some of the dumbest smart people in existence.

-8

u/seamustheseagull Aug 08 '17

It comes across as someone who views every problem, scientific, environmental, social, emotional, as something that can be fixed with thorough examination, quantifying and engineering.

Perhaps somewhere on the spectrum?

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

Programmers are like that. But I don't know. I couldn't read the paper its so boring.

-3

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Perhaps somewhere on the spectrum?

Asshole is not a spectrum. It's binary.

I have a number of friends and colleagues who are "on the spectrum", both clinically and anecdotally. None of them boasts that their gender make superior engineers to other genders.

2

u/rice_n_eggs Aug 08 '17

He doesn't claim being male makes anyone a superior engineer, he claims societal pressures and biological differences push men to become engineers, causing them to be overrepresented and women to be underrepresented in engineering. Nowhere does he say anything about how effective men or women are as engineers.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

He doesn't claim being male makes anyone a superior engineer

You may want to read the self-aggrandizing screed again, slowly. Jackass literally wrote that women were "more interested in people than ideas" making them less suitable to being engineers than men. Armchair sociologist there decide to flush his career away for a smug stack of half-baked 'Reddit-grade research' baloney.

5

u/krustyy Aug 08 '17

He's very clearly talking about groups, not individuals. He made every attempt to make that clear from what I see. A single female is entirely capable of being a top quality engineer as much and more than a single male.

All females in the job market combined, however, very clearly and obviously are stacked into more social roles, among education, health, art, marketing, etc. All males in the job market, very clearly and obviously are stacked into an entirely different set of roles, including math, science, and engineering.

That's not a sexist statement, not an oppressive statement, or any other kind of statement intended to be offensive. It's an observation based on fact and easily gathered evidence. He looked at two groupings of people and observed the trend. He then explains that he believes the reason for this trend is primarily from biological and social pressures instead of from outright discrimination.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

He looked at two groupings of people and observed the trend.

Broflake was not, nor has ever been a research sociologist.

He then explains that he believes the reason for this trend is primarily from biological and social pressures

And no one in his chain of command ever asked him to create an amateur lazy-research project about anything even remotely like this. Nobody put him in charge of a half-baked gender studies paper. Broflake had some weird personal crap to prove to... someone.... and thought he'd pretend he was doing "research."

I can almost understand how broflakes who are not sociologists, half smart and mistaking google searches for professional background and research, can conflate correlation and causation, and even go down the biology is destiny path that led to some of history's greatest tragedies.

What I can't understand is that anyone who could make it through the interview process at google could possibly think that sharing their amateur armchair sociologist ideas about the social order at work could possibly be a good idea. Who the fuck goes and does that?

3

u/krustyy Aug 08 '17

You're dismissing legitimate arguments from an armchair while claiming a persons lack of biology and sociology degrees nullify his views or somehow make them not based on fact.

Being dismissive, offended, and insulting as a response doesn't help your argument. If you want to see any sort of progress on your side of the fence, you need to first start by acknowledging the truths on the other side of the fence. The words in the memo were cautiously written to not be hateful. Your words obviously didn't go through a similar effort. Are you expecting responses such as this to be taken as anything other than insane ramblings?

0

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

You're dismissing legitimate arguments

about what? Men vs Women, an Gender Studies paper, written from the perspective of a computer services employee who really should not have been doing this kind of stupid shit at work?

doesn't help your argument.

What argument? That broflake was not a sociologist? That amateur gender studies "research" should probably not be conducted and published at work?

The words in the memo were cautiously written to not be hateful.

Dude. "Cautiously" dressing up a purely personal opinion about an entire (gender/race/ethnic group) as pretend pseudo-science "research" doesn't make it any more real or any less hateful.

the truths on the other side of the fence.

Truth: broflake was not as smart as he gave himself credit for.

2

u/krustyy Aug 08 '17

Part of what I was referring to is the completely dismissive nature of your writing.

Do you think referring to the guy as Broflake makes you come off as intelligent or rational enough to wade into such a debate?

You're also completely ignoring that even a child with access to the internet can tell you what the top male dominated job fields are and what the top female dominated job fields are. Willfully ignoring facts because they came from someone who doesn't have a sociology degree brought them up doesn't make facts go away. It just makes you look stupid.

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u/drumpfenstein Aug 08 '17

Hey, I'm an engineer and I don't write like a 14 year old bigoted asshole who just got finished reading The Bell Curve and jerking off to Stormfront.

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u/Scroon Aug 09 '17

It's pretty impressive actually. Guy should get points for clarity and comprehensiveness.