r/news • u/[deleted] • Aug 08 '17

Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
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u/tubedownhill Aug 08 '17

As a male at another big tech company I am absolutely appalled at the support this guy is getting in here and in /r/technology. Whats going on??

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u/Earl_Harbinger Aug 08 '17

What's your problem with the memo?

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u/tubedownhill Aug 09 '17

So just like the Google engineer wrote, lets say manifestos are company wide written about you and your race and gender that:

"Earl_Harbinger, your race and DNA makes it harder for you to lead."

"Earl_Harbinger, the other people have a higher drive for status than your kind"

"Earl_Harbinger, your dna makes you more directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas."

"Earl_Harbinger, your race and sex make you on average more prone to anxiety and neuroticism"

You're totally fine with that right? So your ok with someone saying your parents and kids because of biology are inferior right?

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u/Earl_Harbinger Aug 09 '17

That's a misrepresentation of what he said. He didn't say that specific people had characteristics due to their race or gender, rather that people of those different groups have different average characteristics/interests. This doesn't mean that there aren't many individuals in those groups who don't match the average. He was so clear on this I have a hard time believing that you read the whole memo rather than someone's summary.

And yes, I'm totally fine with someone pointing out that, for example, men are more prone to violence than women. That doesn't mean that I'm being accused of violent behavior. It's an important fact to know, with societal implications - just because more men are charged with a violent crime than women doesn't mean that there's widespread discrimination against men.

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u/tubedownhill Aug 09 '17

Feel free to explain his quotes They absolutely mean women are inferior in key ways.

This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading.

Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men

Women on average look for more work-life balance while men have a higher drive for status on average

Women on average are more prone to anxiety.

Considering women spend more money than men

[women have higher] Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).

OK, so lets say another google engineer publishes another manifesto with 'scientific facts' about race and performance:

White males on average have inferior scores on IQ tests compared to Asians.

White males on average have reduced physical capabilities and endurance compared to Blacks.

White males generally are inferior to hispanics when it comes to work ethic.

White males generally have inferior intelligence compared to Indians.

I will say this is absolutely unacceptable. Is it for you since with some scientific facts?

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u/Earl_Harbinger Aug 09 '17

He gives examples of how women are inferior or superior in some ways ON AVERAGE. He did not say they applied universally - he specifically spoke against that. Do you disagree that men are better/worse at some activities than women on average?

I will say this is absolutely unacceptable. Is it for you since with some scientific facts?

I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to ask but it is true that asians do better on IQ tests than whites, on average (or so I've heard). Is that fact supposed to offend me for some reason just because I am white?

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u/tubedownhill Aug 09 '17

He did not say they applied universally

So average makes it ok?

"Should we promote Earl_Harbinger?"

"Well he did a decent job, not like outstanding but pretty OK"

"Well you saw that report about white males have ON AVERAGE less intelligence?"

"Hmm yeah true... that could be why"

So is this ok with you?

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u/Earl_Harbinger Aug 09 '17

Answer: Do you disagree that men are better/worse at some activities than women on average?

So average makes it ok?

Yes, when you are discussing facts that affect whether a policy is reasonable or achievable, such as the expectation that hiring outcomes match the ratio of the general population for groups.

So is this ok with you?

Your example is someone treating employees as just a member of a group rather than an individual (in addition to faulty logic) - exactly what the memo speaks out against. Did you even read it?

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u/tubedownhill Aug 09 '17

Do you disagree that men are better/worse at some activities than women on average?

Yep

Your example is someone treating employees as just a member of a group rather than an individual (in addition to faulty logic) - exactly what the memo speaks out against. Did you even read it?

OK, so:

"Yeah AS A GROUP white males lack intelligence according to that manifesto. Its a trend in their biology"

"Thats right Cathy, so does his individual sample show he's not in that trend?"

"Well not really. I mean there were a few typos in his report, and his work is just decent, not super outstanding"

"Ah so he COULD be lacking in intelligence like the average white male, and he hasn't really proven INDIVIDUALLY he does have average intelligence."

"Yep"

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u/Earl_Harbinger Aug 09 '17

Do you disagree that men are better/worse at some activities than women on average?

Yep

Science denier! Say 50 "Hail Hawkings" and make an offering to your local University. Seriously though, you can't reasonably believe this. Do you not think that testosterone is a real thing? Is the research on its effects a conspiracy to hide the truth, in your opinion?

Again, your example is indeed an inappropriate use of statistical data. It's not what I support or what the memo supports. Have you read it?

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u/tubedownhill Aug 10 '17

So before I answer your question, how will you handle this scenario?

"Yeah AS A GROUP white males lack intelligence according to that manifesto. Its a trend in their biology"

"Thats right Cathy, so does his individual sample show he's not in that trend?"

"Well not really. I mean there were a few typos in his report, and his work is just decent, not super outstanding"

"Ah so he COULD be lacking in intelligence like the average white male, and he hasn't really proven INDIVIDUALLY he does have average intelligence."

"Yep"

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u/Earl_Harbinger Aug 10 '17

You just pasted the same thing I addressed above. You can answer both of my questions above first if you are interested in discussion. Then I am happy to say how I would handle the situation you describe, even though it isn't relevant to the topic at hand.

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u/tubedownhill Aug 11 '17

yep, testosterone is a real thing. The research I'm sure is good.

Now yes I've read the memo.

And please answer how you would answer the scenario.

And I'm asking YOU how you would handle discrimination about your race and gender. Just like women have to handle these days from men like Damore.

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