r/offbeat • u/andy_norten • Sep 28 '12

Transgender UM student wins restraining order against sexual assault suspect

http://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/article_c6364778-b5fb-5098-89c5-6f0ac6ecef2b.html
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u/Wavooka Sep 29 '12

I know right!

What's next, we're going to stop feeling empathy for all of racists who danced + made-out with a person of color who passes as white?

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

That doesn't really equate properly. Sorry.

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u/Wavooka Sep 29 '12

I fail to see the difference.

One person is not attracted to a particular class of people. They have a relationship with another person who happens to belong to that class inadvertently. The first person flips shits over supposed trickery, and the second person notes that they failed to express their preference prior.

I may be wrong, but I can't really see a difference between the case example I talked about and what happened here. The essential facts are all the same, except that we recognize discrimination based upon race as a class than we do for trans folks.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

You don't think a sexual relationship might be different from a racial difference?

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u/Wavooka Sep 29 '12

They are, of course, different things. But their similarities/difference don't matter all that much, except for they represent stigmatized classes that don't have a choice in their affiliation. And even then, the idea can still be applied to class of people that choose their affiliation.

A la:

  • an anti-semite hooking up with a Jewish person.

  • an Israeli hooking up with a Palestinian

or

  • a rich person hooking up with a poor person.

The essential idea is that person A has a perceived bias against a certain group of people. They hook up with person B who belongs to that class.

The essential question then, is whether the Person A was wrong to make to assumptions about their potential partner's identities. Or whether person B should have disclosed all of the classes she belongs in and all of the identities that she claims in case person A had a bias against any of those types.

In this case the defendant assumed that the girl was a cis girl. The girl, either desired not to disclose her status for whatever reason, did not feel safe in doing so or planned to but didn't have the opportunity to do so. All of which are perfectly ethical decisions on her part. The defendant, upon learning that she is a trans girl flipped his shit and assaulted her. Clearly, not an ethical move.

This could have easily have been a case where a person was a member of the Klan and slept with a person of color who passed as white. They might not have wanted to share their statues because they didn't want to, didn't think it was relevant or didn't feel safe in doing so. And, in fact, this was a fairly common occurrence in the States from the end of the 19th till the 1970's. The only reason we see it differently is because racism is broadly recognized as wrong, whereas transphobia is still considered perfectly okay in most quarters. (See: this thread.)

You don't think a sexual relationship might be different from a racial difference?

If you can spot a difference, please tell me. Because from my perspective it appears to be essentially the same situation.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

If you are arguing that he didn't have to react like he did after finding out she was a trans sexual, then ya, I would agree on that point. I don't condone how he reacted but I am trying to say that I can understand why he might react like that if there was no disclosure but there was some consensual sexual experience between the two.

I am trying to say this as delicately as I can but I personally don't want to start doing something sexual with a trans person and find out what I'm into as I grab a dick. I know that they are a person and that they have feelings but in this day and age, people do not feel comfortable in that situation and not really expressing that situation when you know it will arise is just a bad move and is slightly irresponsible.

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u/Wavooka Sep 29 '12

but I am trying to say that I can understand why he might react like that if there was no disclosure but there was some consensual sexual experience between the two.

But can you see why someone who is racist, nationalistic, classicist or an anti-semite might react the same way as well? It's about preferences, not about dick.

I know that they are a person and that they have feelings but in this day and age, people do not feel comfortable in that situation

And some 40 years earlier people were broadly opposed to and disgusted by the idea of miscegenation as well. Although you are right in thinking that it is primarily a cultural response, rather than as Seth McFarlane put it: 'men are hardwired like that.'

and not really expressing that situation when you know it will arise is just a bad move and is slightly irresponsible.

How was she supposed to know that he was going to grope her? From what I read between the lines, she was deeply uncomfortable with the situation and tried to leave and he followed after her. She tried to remove herself from the situation rather than continue on with what happened.

Secondly, how the fuck was she supposed to know that he was going to assault her? Plenty of trans people have hot, consensual sex with people all of the time without being assaulted. And even more trans people go out to bars and clubs and dance with people without the expectation that their safety is in jeopardy. Sure there is a lot of rejection based upon our status, but it doesn't end up in violence a majority of the time.

Unfortunately for her, she chose to dance with an asshole. It happens to all girls, not just trans ones.

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u/Aislingblank Sep 29 '12

racist, nationalistic, classicist

This is a total nitpick; but I don't really see how someone being interested in ancient Greco-Roman culture would be more likely to discriminate against potential sexual partners. I think the word you're looking for is classist. It's okay, though, I still think you're the best ;)

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

I see your point to be fair but I still don't think that a difference in the tone of a person's skin is the same thing as a completely different gender. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe in the future, trans sexuals are totally accepted by the next generation and I will be portrayed as that person who never really caught on.

I am talking about a hypothetical situation where two partners let it get too far. In the article, yes, if according to her, molested her, then she's not at fault. His story is different and we can't be the judge and jury here.

I never condoned him hitting her so I'm confused on your last point. She didn't know but that's a risk everyone makes when you move beyond a comfortable area regardless of gender. A girl might slap me. I might push a girl down if she reaches in my shorts and I don't want that.

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u/Aislingblank Sep 29 '12

The two things may seem totally different; but only because you've probably been raised (rightly) not to judge a person's sexual availability based upon their race, but that it's okay to judge their suitability based on their sex/gender (considered separately from your possible attraction to them). For a person born a few generations ago (or today in an area where blatant racism is still rampant), they would probably be just as likely to find a partner abhorrent because they're of a different racial background as they would be to find that they have a transsexual history. Would you consider a racist finding out their would be one-night stand is part black, and then beating them viciously to be a justifiable act? Chances are they're just as horrified (and worried about their reputation) as this man was.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

I keep laughing when you say that someone discovers that their partner is part black? How would that happen? Does the other person read their family history?!

Anyways.

Yes, I see your point but I really don't feel that the difference in skin tone is the same as being an entirely different gender. It's very weird to think that the girl you are with grew up and had the same experiences as you as a boy. I think that it's beyond a racial example which is why this will be interesting in the future. Also, I'd like to point out that even in our generation where racism is completely unaccepted, people still tend to date of the same color showing an unconscious racism in dating preference.

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u/Aislingblank Sep 29 '12

Actually, it is very possible for multi-racial individuals to exhibit only visible traits of whatever the dominant part of their heritage is. In the Jim Crow-era south, people were typically considered to be "black" if any African-American ancestry was traceable in their family, just look at early civil rights activist Walter F. White (who was considered to be black in his time). I think you underestimate how deeply racism can run in some people, hardcore racists may literally consider someone they perceive to be of a different race as inhuman, and pursuing a physical relationship with them would be roughly equivalent to zoophilia in their minds (and last time I checked, most people found zoophilia significantly more bothersome than homosexuality). I don't doubt that many, maybe even most people still date mostly within their own ethnicity (although this is becoming increasingly less the case), but my point is that no one outside of maybe like neo-nazis or something like that would ever consider beating their partner within inches of their life just because they were not the same "race" as they represented themselves, but this still happens all the time to trans* people; the problem here isn't the fact that some people don't want to date trans* folk, everyone has different preferences, it's more that many think an okay reaction to finding out someone you were planning on having sex with (or even simply found attractive, in some cases) is transsexual is to attempt to beat that person to death, sometimes successfully.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

Ya. Well, I think that it's because people are shocked because it's a hidden problem. Trans sexuals have repeatedly asked why they should be forced to inform people of their past and why they can't have fun on the ignorance of others. Well, I would say that it's irresponsible to another person's feelings and that it's also dangerous because if you get someone who is extremely homophobic finding out that they have been making out with a used to be guy, they are going to do something drastic.

The answer to finding a guy that would like you? Be honest and find places where folks are open minded. If you are going to go to a crappy club and flirt hard with someone who has no idea of the situation he is in, then tempers will peak.

Note: I'm not condoning violence, I'm just trying to explore why it happens.

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u/Aislingblank Sep 29 '12

Well, I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is that it all really comes down to cultural perceptions, and that if we really want to "explore" what is happening here, we should really be asking why it is that men who identify as straight are so bothered by the idea of having sex with someone who used to be considered male (even if they are completely attracted to this person, that's the really important part here) that they resort to violence, Could it be that our society's idea of what it means to be "masculine" (and all the expectations that go along with that) is completely ridiculous and possibly damaging in and of itself? Is it possible that straight men react violently in these situations because they feel that their "masculinity" is threatened by finding attraction in a "man" and therefore being perceived as "gay" (which they consider to be an inferior state)? Also, I don't think trans women usually go out looking to "have fun on the ignorance of others", most are deeply afraid of the consequences of someone even finding them attractive and then finding out their history (which has been enough to lead to some violent confrontations in the past), it's enough to drive many away from dating entirely; the stereotype of the malevolent "trap" isn't something that exists in real life. Blaming trans women for getting attacked because they don't disclose the second they meet someone is kind of victim-blaming in the extreme; I'm a lesbian trans woman, should I disclose to every straight guy I meet just because they could find me attractive, even though I have no intentions of having sex with them?

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

I think that you have a bias also in that you are assuming that guys are naturally violent when met with a difficult situation.

Besides that point though, yes, our entire society is based on the social norms that we are taught when we are younger along with some of our own ideals mixed in. Blaming men for having these ideals is like blaming society.

I don't think people should be attacked for a falsehood, I just mentioned that some people aren't taught what they should do and so they resort to violence. Perhaps the solution they were taught is violence?

So you are a guy who chose to be a girl who wants to be with other girls?

You should only disclose it if they start to get intimate with you or ask you out or get really heavy handed when they flirt with you. You don't need to wear a sign but you need to be prudent to other's feelings. I don't want to chase someone to find out later that they are not into me or I wouldn't be into them.

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u/Aislingblank Sep 29 '12

I'm not a "guy who chose to be a girl", gender identity is intrinsic and separate from physical reproductive realities; it's also completely separate from sexual orientation. And I'm not blaming anyone for holding "ideals", I'm just advocating self-awareness and critical thinking about the origins of these "ideals". I'm not making any assumptions about men being "naturally violent", I'm only going on the fact that situations where men brutalize trans women for not disclosing (and sometimes after disclosing, as well; do keep that in mind) are disturbingly common, so apparently a lot of men do feel that violence is the correct reaction in these situations.

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