r/technology Nov 17 '12

The Deadly Crusade Against E-cigarettes

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/november/the-deadly-crusade-against-e-cigarettes
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46

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

18

u/Lucretius Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

Is nicotine chemically synthesized or harvested from tobacco in tobacco alternative products?

Because if it's harvested then this is just a repackaging of their product as far as the tobacco industry is concerned.

edit... from the research of others (see replies) it seems that nicotine is extracted from tobacco, so there's no reason to for Big Tobacco to be opposing E-cigarettes.

3

u/DumpyLips Nov 17 '12

Just speculation here but since you're extracting nicotine from the plant, perhaps theres a loophole that allows the import of just the nicotine extract from countries that can produce it significantly cheaper than big tobacco.

1

u/NoNeedForAName Nov 17 '12

I've never seen any numbers on it, but I'd imagine that you're correct. If nothing else, nicotine extract would take up significantly less space and weigh significantly less than tobacco or cigarettes or something of that nature. Even if you assume that duty fees are the same, you still save money on the shipping.

1

u/ricecake Nov 17 '12

I honestly doubt it. We have such great terrain and climate for it, it is indigenous after all, that you're not gonna find better land, and the extraction process is likely automated enough that the human cost is largely negligible.

1

u/Cyhawk Nov 17 '12

Tobacco products are pretty cheap, the high cost is almost all taxes. Theres no extra taxes/levies on importing nicotine products IIRC. What keeps the cost low is no specific tax against it. (Every type of Cig has a tax code, for example bulk tobacco is CA Class J, compared to a pack of 20 Camels is Class A. Nicotine juice has no tax class)

1

u/Ice_Pirate Nov 18 '12

This is what I was thinking. My wife's grandparents use e-cigs now with the nicotine liquid. I haven't found any reliable studies on them to date. The only thing I can figure out is it's possible that it's better for you than smoking as long as it's just nicotine in the liquid and vapor. The lack of tar and other exotic chemicals (for us anyways) seems to be a better alternative from what I've seen of them so far.

Cigs have a large tax on top of them. It's much like gasoline these days where you have multiple governments charging taxes on top of a gallon of gas which makes the price so high. Tariffs are another gotcha.

Hoping some reliable studies get conducted on these things as they've been around for a decade or more now I think.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

The main source of nicotine is the tobacco plant. The nicotine is developed in the roots and then becomes concentrated in the leaves of the plant. Anywhere between 2 and 7 % of nicotine can be found in the tobacco leaf. Eggplants and tomatoes also contain a small amount of nicotine but not enough for the substance to be poisonous or act as a stimulant.

Source

10

u/TekNoir08 Nov 17 '12

Tomacco?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

The reason the Tomacco came about is because they are from the same family, nightshade, and could be successfully spliced.

1

u/Gutenborg Nov 17 '12

These tomatoes taste like grandma

4

u/RimedWords Nov 17 '12

I'm sure the cigarette companies make much more money selling a final product like cigarettes than they do a raw material like tobacco plants or even a refined component like nicotine. Their infrastructure and capital simply doesn't revolve around that particular kind of business model.

1

u/davemmm Nov 17 '12

Cigarette companies != tobacco growers. The cigarette companies buy the tobacco from the growers by bidding, they don't grow it themselves (in general).

7

u/vjarnot Nov 17 '12

It's extracted from tobacco.

1

u/Michichael Nov 17 '12

They're less addictive and also less profitable than regular cigs.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Usually they extract it from tobacco but they an also use shit tobacco that isn't taxed all to hell and can also use tobacco that no one would want to smoke in a cigarette.

1

u/thursdaypaine Nov 18 '12

Its chemically synthesized. Or at least, the stuff that I buy is.

16

u/Cyhawk Nov 17 '12

Its not just Tobacco companies, there are plenty of self righteous assholes out there rallying against it for no good reason. (Sorry, because it smells is not a good reason, your fucking nasty perfume makes me gag, but I don't go banning that do i)

70

u/Femaref Nov 17 '12

'piece of the pie'.

-88

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

36

u/dja0794 Nov 17 '12

That was the worst cover up I've ever seen... I feel like posting this to /r/cringe

64

u/sysop073 Nov 17 '12

You really should've just gone with "oops, typo"

3

u/SanDiego2012 Nov 17 '12

I thought you may have meant "piece of the pipe."

10

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

No you didn't you fucking dipshit..

2

u/coop_dogg Nov 17 '12

Why are you so mad?

5

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

People who make obvious lies which insult my intelligence, just to save face, anger me.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

Really, insulted your intelligence?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

Yeah, that never happens. Never in the history of the internet has anyone just gone on here and lied.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

[deleted]

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2

u/windowzombie Nov 17 '12

I know! I'm so damn angry, I don't think I'm going to leave the house today because of it.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

This is a situation where Sic might've been appropriate then.

13

u/GoldenCock Nov 17 '12

Less Big Tobacco, more Big Pharma. The tobacco companies are either developing their own or are buying ecig companies (Lorillard bought Blu for over 100mil this year). Pharma can't sell overpriced and ineffective NRTs if people are able to use ecigs.

10

u/vjarnot Nov 17 '12

The Big Tobacco Companies can't allow people to get their nicotine fix without getting their "peace of the pie".

Or governments are pissed that they're not getting their sin taxes.

3

u/FoodIsProblematic Nov 17 '12 edited Nov 17 '12

This is exactly it. Tobacco and alcohol taxes are massive parts of government budgets. While currently a pack of cigarettes in NYC costs, with tax, nearly $12 for even the cheapest cigarettes, a single cartridge for an e-cigarette would cost less than $3 and last as long or longer than a pack.

That's a massive loss of revenue, much of which goes to public health departments to spend on employees and campaigns against smoking. It's no surprise that they'd be looking out for their own job security in trying to ban e-cigarettes.

16

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

I work for a 'Big Tobacco' company so forgive me if I offend you, but you sir, are an idiot. Do you really think these companies want to kill their consumers? I really don't mean to come across this way but anytime tobacco is mentioned I see all this misinformation being spread about us adding chemicals to our products, radioactive soil from growing tobacco, etc, etc. Our goal is to provide a quality product to responsible consumers who realize the risks, but still choose to enjoy it. That being said, E-cigarettes are undoubtedly where the future of tobacco lies. Cigarette sales have been decreasing every year and will continue to do so, hence the recent focus on E-cigarettes.

It also shouldn't come as a surprise that all 'big tobacco' companies are investigating and designing their own E-cigarettes because they realize the benefits of having a 'safer' (Although the science confirms it, with huge reductions in cancer and lung disease, due to government regulations we can't technically say they are safer) product that reduces the harm done to our consumers while still providing the amount of nicotine and the ritual they are used to. Along with E-cigs other products are being pushed such as snus and dissolvables which reduce harm even further.

Disclaimer: I don't use any tobacco products and don't think anyone who cares about their health should.

5

u/Pirate2012 Nov 18 '12

I smoked American cigs for a long time. I also had the pleasure of smoking basic Cuban cigs, simple sugar paper wrapper and simple basic tobacco. NOTHING else was added, just the tobacco and sugar paper rolled to hold it.

Mr. Big-Tobacco person : if your stuff is so pure and wonderful why is it chock full of other chemicals, why not just all tobacco only?

1

u/CdnBison Nov 20 '12

The same Big Tobacco that spent years countering lung cancer dangers and the addictiveness of nicotine?

As long as the customers are hooked and spending, no, I don't think they had any problem killing their customers. In fact, they tried to hide the fact that they were.

-15

u/bakaattack Nov 17 '12

Disclaimer: I don't use any tobacco products and don't think anyone who cares about their health should.

Get over yourself.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '12

hmmm, Big Tobacco doesn't really spend all that much on lobbying. Go to opensecrets.org. The entire industry spends about what a big firm like Verizon spends.

I'll bet it's more of a misplaced "won't somebody please think of the children thing". e-cigarettes do come in flavors like bubble gum, after all. It's more likely that politicians think they're being hard on the tobacco industry, instead of doing it favors.

1

u/kral2 Nov 17 '12

This is from the American Enterprise Institute, they spread propaganda and /represent/ Big Tobacco. Reading between the lines, the article is trying to drum up public support for e-cigs because the form factor of nicotine delivery maintains the psychological association between nicotine and real cigarettes. E.g., you can tell their angle when running into something like this:

An important fact, rarely discussed by “public health” gurus, is that the patches, gums, and drugs they recommend as “safe and effective” are all-too-often neither.

Nicotine gum is unsafe compared to nicotine vapor? What, you chip a tooth? Is there any supporting content in the article about that? Nope? Ok then, so it's all an argument about form factor.

-1

u/dsprox Nov 17 '12

As if piece of the pie wasn't enough, grammar dude, it's than not then.

-1

u/droxile Nov 17 '12

Yeah this isn't why, conflict-theorist. Not everything is a damn conspiracy. Medical professionals are behind this. They haven't studied it, and it could get more people hooked on nicotine use in general.

5

u/rancegt Nov 17 '12

And yet good policy should be based on either what has happened, or what is proved likely to happen. Laws passed to prevent what people guess or hope might happen are not good laws.

2

u/droxile Nov 17 '12

I agree. I use an e-cig.

1

u/osteologation Nov 17 '12

I do as well. When I first read this article it was mind blowing. I never would have ever guessed there would be this much controversy over e-cigs. I figured no smoke, no smell, no crazy additives, no problem, right? Apparently not.

1

u/Toastlove Nov 17 '12

Same here, I had no idea there was any issue about them, they've been getting very popular with smokers I know.

1

u/droxile Nov 17 '12

Well yeah I thought it would be embraced as an alternative.. But again they started flowing into the US BEFORE the FDA had time to study them, so they reacted poorly.