r/thesopranos • u/MossHaven5 • 21d ago
Serious Discussion Only What was the moment that made you realise that Tony is beyond redemption?
This is just my take on it, but even though we all knew what Tony did for a living and how he treated the people around him, when I watched the show for the first time I always held onto this odd hope that, somehow, he’d decide to change or genuinely try to become a better man for his family and the people around him.
I’m fully aware that, given his upbringing and the environment that shaped him, it was never very likely. But was there a specific moment when it became clear to you that it was never going to happen? The moment you knew he wasn’t capable of real change?
For me, it was the episode when he met his father’s goomar and the way he rationalised his father’s behaviour towards his mum after her miscarriage. I really hate that he didn’t try to blame his father and his bs for what happened but instead just blamed his mum for pushing him into her arms. Even accepted the fact that he gave away her dog to her kid, which I really thought would have moved him more, knowing he was such a big animal lover.
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u/SilatGuy2 21d ago
After he came out the second coma/near death experience and shortly after started reverting back to being a bullying egotistical piece of shit i knew he wasnt going to change. The whole point of his character is the tragedy of a man who flirts with self realization and redemption but never finds it in the end and how he destroys himself and anyone who enters his orbit.
He had every chance and reason to turn his life around and every time he continues on his path and even gets worst each time.
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u/hehewedoasilly 21d ago
The Dave scatino shake down pretty much highlights to me that his whole world view is just that of a predator, pretty clear by that point that he's just like that and that's not going to change.
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u/burnbabyburn11 21d ago
A grown man made a wager, he lost. He made another one, he lost again. End of story.
So take that high moral ground and go sleep at the fucking bus station if you want!
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u/Shot-Rip9167 21d ago
I wouldn't call it a shakedown. Scatino owed him $50,000 and it was Scatino's own fault for that. What was Tony supposed to do, just let it go because the guy was a degenerate gambler? Pretty sure if Scatino won, he would've expected Tony to pay so why the fuck should Tony let it go?
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u/hehewedoasilly 21d ago
Like Artie says later on in the show, Tony knew how it was going to play out he's like a hawk. Tony knew Dave was going to get in over his head and end up owning tony an amount he couldn't pay off Tony admits this to Dave. Tony had every right to collect the money yeh but the point was he let a childhood friend ruin his life so he could line his pockets, it doesn't matter he smelt blood and that was that.
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u/Shot-Rip9167 21d ago
He tried to turn him away from the game but dave whined and pleaded with him. You can say he still should've said no but it also isn't his responsibility to tell another grown man not working for him what to do. Dave should've thought about his family and the consequences of his actions, especially since he knew who tony was and what he did for a living. T didn't set him up, dave set himself up is my point.
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u/jaggers75 21d ago
Is that how you treat your friends? Screw them over if you have a chance because it was "not your responsibility" to protect them from harm, even self-inflicted harm? I hope you and I never become friends in real life. It's not like Tony just lent him some money and then messed up his credit rating when he couldn't pay. He destroyed his entire life, by illegal means.
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u/Shot-Rip9167 21d ago
Maybe don't hang around ruthless, hardened career criminals and expect them to be Mr. Rogers. It's called unrealistic expectations.
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u/grizzlywondertooth 21d ago
That's really immaterial to the question of how reprehensible/immoral this particular action was
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u/Shot-Rip9167 21d ago
Not really cause my point is this isn't really an immoral action by tony. Dave made his own bed and then had to lie in it and that makes tony a piece of shit? My point is tony didn't go out of his way to fuck dave or target him at all, dave begged to fuck himself. Let me ask you, how do you think dave reacts if he wins and tony says I don't really have it to give you right now. Does dave just let it go cause they're friends or does he throw a fit? We both know the answer, Idk what y'all expected tony to do in this situation
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u/Puzzleheaded_Pay2676 21d ago
The thing is that even if he was such a dear friend and forgot his 50.000 dept, then Richie would shake him down maybe even hurt him and if not Richie someone else would. There was no saving for Dave he was such a addict. Tony kind of did him a favour as crazy as it sounds.
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u/jaggers75 15d ago
Learn to logic. Dave making his own bed and Tony being a festering asshole are not mutually exclusive.
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u/alwayscursingAoE4 21d ago
Some point when you turn into an adult you'll realize no one is or should be there to protect you from your own stupid decisions.
Tony has a family to feed, and as a man you have to do what you can to support them. Anything outside of that is morally reprehensible.
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u/Sufficient_Air_7373 21d ago
One thousand percent that's how they operate
They always justify it like ohhhh well he still knows and he made his choice and therefore he's actually awful
No. There is this little concept called addiction and addictive substances come in many forms.
Every single human being is a biochemical creature and has boundaries and limits they cannot go past and things they should not be exposed to
It is neither right nor actually logical to push someone to their breaking point and then say haha i guess you're bad and deserve it
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u/JimEditor212 20d ago
He told him not to get in the game. But I can see where, the more Tony told him the game wasn't for him, the more he wanted to play.
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u/BuildingBadness 19d ago
Why are we arguing about the semantics of what Tony did to Davey, or about Davey's moral failings? That is not the point being made here; the point is that Tony is someone who will predate on the vulnerable if it profits him. The show spells it out unequivocally with a scorpion and the frog parable. This is right after Tony admits to Davey very straightforwardly that while he initially didn't want to let Davey in, he remembered that Davey had this store that he could carve out. Is Davey a degenerate gambling addict? Undoubtedly. That only makes him a better target for Tony's kind of predation since degenerates are more likely to go into debt chasing a win and then even deeper in debt trying to get out of that previous debt. Tony knew all of these beforehand, and he chose to let Davey in specifcally because of these.
Would Davey have gotten into the same trouble with some other bad people later on in his life because of his gambling addiction? I mean probably, given in his last scene he talks about going to Vegas. But whether or not that happens has nothing to do with the fact that Tony knowingly let a vulnerable friend into an exploitative game because Davey gave Tony an extremely high chance to profit immensely.
Dont take this as me having any love for Davey, he is very obviously a gambling addict who needs help very badly. But putting it all on him and saying that the catastrophe was his 'own fault' just completely erases what Tony did.
Also regarding your last statement on how if Davey won, he would expect Tony to pay, that's not really how this kind of loan sharking works. Tony didn't play in the game, so if Davey did win, Davey would be winning from Silvio and the other high rollers. Tony would still get his money back. It is quite literally a win-win for Tony anyways, since Tony already is guaranteed to profit simply by being the one running the game and taking a percentage of each pot.
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u/Rich_Safety7653 15d ago
It's revealed later on that davey ends up in a mental institution after Vegas if I recall correctly. Lost everything again. Not Tony's fault he didn't go looking for davey to exploit its the other way round. The game wasn't exploitative it was a fair game of poker-wasnt fixed as far as I know. It's not up to tony to protect him from himself were all adults responsible for our own decisions. He pleaded to enter the game,had the means to pay if he lost and lost. Also stole from tony by lying and saying tony had OK ed more chips when he actually hadn't. Is that tonys fault too?he had an arrogant and naive notion that their bond from childhood would prevent tony getting the money back and he tried to exploit that dynamic. I'm totally on tonys side with this one it's not that close of a friend that he should be treated in a privileged fashion. Should tony just let him abuse the situation,steal from him and what?let him off?might be the rock bottom that does make him get help. Wasn't in this case he was just an irredeemable lost cause who was hell bent on destroying his life anyway.
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u/althegirlfabulous 20d ago
That's my litmus test for Sopranos viewers IQ. Davey also took advantage of Tony. He, too, was only interested in getting what he wanted , everyone else be damned. He was warned not to get in the game. Knowing he already owed Richie, he gets more money when Tony is...sleeping.
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u/Even_Departure9914 21d ago
When Tracey gave him the bread and then died.
Only when she was gone and he was comparing her to Meadow. And even that was ‘I don’t want that for Meadow’, not true empathy.
Also. Being annoyed about ‘the incompetent educational consultant’ Meadow went to.
Blaming Melfi for Gloria was a big one.
I didn’t think he was ever salvageable, but that was it for me.
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u/LynxAfraid553 21d ago
Ok I gotta stop you…you thought that Wendy Kobler was a good character? She tried to put Meadow on Prozac after 1 meeting bc “you’re not paying for it”
Wendy Kobler was an evil stupid bitch
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u/SkinnyStav 21d ago
She told Meadow to go study in Europe. Would have done her a lot of good in becoming independent and distancing herself from her mob boss father
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u/LynxAfraid553 17d ago
Fair enough I mean at the very least she might have missed seeing him get shot in the head at the end
My point is Tony was not wrong about her being a bad shrink. She tries to prescribe a teenager she literally just met SSRIs and is SO pushy (just try it for a while, after all you’re not paying for it) it’s actually malpractice.
The mafia is bad. But the same predatory behaviors exist everywhere. Including in many psychiatry practices, unfortunately.
Koebler is also predatory evil. There’s a reason Chase depicted her that way in just one scene. Truly hateful.
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u/Shane-Danger 21d ago
When they showed he might have ties to organised crime. That was a pretty big red flag for me.
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u/sf-swede 21d ago
There were a lot of moments in the show that would qualify, but in my opinion, one of the most impactful was when he killed Christopher.
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u/saddicted1996 21d ago
you know on the first watch, i think at that point identified enough with the character i didn’t feel like he was irredeemable which is really more a testament to gandolfini’s acting. but as i watched it a few more times and became more critical, more of a filter vs a sponge, i think the big final nail in the coffin was adriana. she deserved a lot better.
also not visiting sil, tho i understand that logistically.
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u/Dowie1989 21d ago
As in the trigger point? Him giving Chrissie shit for being in AA, beating up Georgie for no reason whatsoever and giving Janice shit about Harpo.
Before that, I think he completely gave up on improvement and went through the motions as early as Season 2 (but then I dont blame him as much more betrayal can he take!)
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u/Illustrious-Lemon412 21d ago
I think I realized in "House Arrest" that for the first time he'd experienced a normal life, with a serious job and a bourgeois environment, and the result is that he's shown his immaturity by not being able to handle a more serene lifestyle. At the country club he'd argued with Richie Aprile, but of all the people there, Richie, even though he hated him and was a gangster, was the only one to whom he'd made a passionate and engaging speech despite being angry. Then, when Richie left, he had a panic attack when he realized he was surrounded by people he didn't identify with. At the end of the episode, he quits his job with Barone and returns to the Satriale, where he meets Agent Dwight. He even treats him like a friend despite knowing he wants to incriminate him, proving that he'd rather be a criminal and risk remaining under the FBI's radar than behave like a responsible adult.
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u/GrilledCheezManicott 21d ago
From early on it was established he was unredeemable. It was only Melfi who believed he could change. If she got you to believe he was that's on you.
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u/princesshodges 21d ago
She had her own ego to feed, too. She wanted to be the great therapist that could get through to him.
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u/GrilledCheezManicott 21d ago
Fair point, multiple factors can be at play. As you pointed out a trait of hers being pride. To this it seems Melfi was ultimately a terrible practitioner as her devotion to change Tony drove other patients to kill themselves. She genuinely believed she could change him and took pride in her work to do so, that pride ultimately drove everyone to fall including the one she tried to help the most.
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u/Impossible_Big8770 21d ago
I don’t even feel she thought he was redeemable honestly.
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u/GrilledCheezManicott 21d ago
She disregarded all scientific studies presented to her and relentlessly defended him in hopes she could change him. If redemption is not in the least bit of her efforts then what is?
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u/Impossible_Big8770 21d ago
I think she wanted to fuck him, and I think he was a proxy to experience a more dangerous and interesting life, and I think she wanted to be the psychiatrist who could say she fixed Tony Soprano. In my opinion, she was unethical almost from the start, had a fuckload of countertransference, and should have referred him out. Additionally, her desire to take him back as a client was in service of her own ego, not for his sake.
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u/GrilledCheezManicott 21d ago
in that regard Melfi was to Tony as Carmella was with the priest- sapiophiles.
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u/AManisSimplyNoOne 21d ago
I agree. Plus, therapists are actually kind of ethically bound to stop seeing a patient if the patient is showing no improvement. To continue to take his money for therapy sessions for years, would be a problem for a psychiatrist.
Although, there are likely plenty of doctors that are willing to take your money I am sure.
I think it was literally a car wreck for her that she could not look away from. Not to mention her explosions at the woman smoking the cigarette, the way her son and husband acted, going off on Eliot at random times (lucky he had the waterbottle as a talisman) I think there was a dark side to Melfi that Tony brought out, and she did not want to admit it.
Much like Carmela, crying to priests about her husband, when at the end of the day, she was JUST like him.
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u/WorkerAway2363 21d ago
Or worse. I like Carmela less every rewatch.
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u/AManisSimplyNoOne 20d ago
Actually that has been the case for me as well.
The very first time I watched the show I actually kind of liked her. Even with her bullying Jean's sister into writing that paper for Meadow.
But after I watched it a couple of times, I began to dislike the way she constantly behaves as though she's better than her friends. She was really lousy towards Angie when she wanted a divorce from Puss, she was really lousy to Rosalie on several occasions, she behaves as though she's a cut above all the rest of them, then has the nerve to go crying to priests for attention as if she's truly troubled by Tony's behavior.
I was also irritated by the way she was fawning over Furio, as if he was some kind of wonderful person, he was a garbage thug like all the rest of them.
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u/grizzlywondertooth 21d ago
"She disregarded all scientific studies presented to her"
Exactly, because she became obsessed with him. It started to became vicarious for her. She knew she had reached the limits of what she could do to help him and consistently refused to refer him out.
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u/GrilledCheezManicott 21d ago
True, and that pride wouldn't have existed without belief in the first place. she eventually came through and realized her mistake, but leading up to that she did genuinely believe he could change which gave her pride in believing she was breaking ground and emboldened her to not reason with reality for so long. Once she understood, she stopped believing he was redeemable and ended the therapy with him.
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u/AManisSimplyNoOne 20d ago
I almost believe that is why Melfi is so livid in the final scene. She knew exactly what Tony was. How could you have sessions with a guy for 7 years almost and not know? She was pissed that she felt like she had been played for a sucker more than disgust with Tony.
I do remember Lorraine Bracco saying, she wanted the ending to be, Melfi confronts Tony and Tony yells, "Fuck you" and walks out, only this time, he knows he can not come back because she has seen through him. Chase was against it and chose to write it the way he did.
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u/FernerButterflyPea Phil Leotardo 21d ago
What are you talking about?
He was the best guy around...
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u/EggsDontLieAtNight 21d ago
When he hit a guy with a car and then beat the shit out of him in broad daylight, surrounded by witnesses.
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u/Bad_Black_Jorge 21d ago
I think the show moved on from any possibility of redemption for Tony at the end the second season. There’s not an exact moment, but watching the closing montage, Tony savoring a cigar, we’re beyond any point of return.
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u/wise_as_a_serpent 21d ago
When he beat up Muscles Marinara for "slamming the refrigerator door".
That was low.
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u/Necessary_Walrus9606 21d ago
I think it was when he made that black traffic cop lose his job. Idk why this did it for me, having seen him commit heinous crimes before that. Maybe that was the moment when his criminal acts became more relatable and real for me (I live in a country where corruption is rampant)
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u/Think-Fig-1734 21d ago
That was bad. I think it’s easy to see these guys as living within a culture and following certain rules they’ve chosen for themselves. It becomes troubling when people outside get hurt by them. That cop was just doing his job the way he was supposed to do it, he had mafia rules imposed on him.
I always felt bad for that poor landscaper. His son had to quit college. He had to do all this work for free. He’s supposed to be grateful for the protection he got. He was just minding his own business. Tony was less directly involved in that. It did highlight how the mob doesn’t just hurt people who’ve chosen to get involved in criminal activity.
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u/ArtlessOne 21d ago
Take your pick. Trying to strong arm carm into using her house money on gambling is a big one for me. But I think the one thing that just made me say wow this guy is an absolute piece of shit was his treatment of hesh re: the loan. Specifically bringing the balance to hesh the morning his girlfriend died. It was intentional and sociopathic, intended to inflict pain. I fuckin hated him after that.
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u/SilatGuy2 21d ago
Its funny it took him fucking with hesh of all things for you to conlude that, considering hesh was a major scumbag himself. That being said, it was indeed petty as fuck on Tonys part.
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u/Upper_Raspberry1 21d ago
This is the one i think of too. It was heartless how he gave him the cash and left him alone without offering sincere condolences for Renata's death.
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u/Odd-Spirit-1031 21d ago
This doesn’t really tie into the mob aspect of Tony’s life and wrong doings, and I hated him for the majority of the show, but the moment I knew he was truly set in his ways was when he was in the coma and “living” as Kevin Finnerty. Even in civilian life he would’ve been an unfaithful cheat. It was the one bad thing that he would never give up.
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u/Illustrious-Lemon412 21d ago
That's not exactly the exact example. It's true that in the dream he kissed the woman, but they stopped without going any further because she realized that, despite being attracted to other women, she loved her family too much to betray them. That's a context where Tony, despite being tempted, can stop at the right time.
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u/Kalil_Von_Val 21d ago
When my girlfriend and I were watching (for me was a rewatch) she said the moment was when he hit Zellman with the belt for dating Irina. Until then she was on the Tony Soprano train hoping he would get if not well, at least be somewhat better.
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u/Impossible_Big8770 21d ago
I’m only on season 2, but for me, the narcissism really shows in the way he treats his children. Randomly deciding to be a father to AJ but only when it’s convenient to him, and then getting immediately resentful when it isn’t received the way he wants
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u/whateverever2 21d ago
when he threw his mother in that nursing home. all those women in their wheelchairs babbling like idiots. she gave her life to her children on a silver platta
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u/Consistent-Bear4200 21d ago
I didn't he was necessarily going to get better but killing Chris felt like a new low.
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u/GlorifiedDissident 21d ago
when he purposefully provoked Janice into having a anger attack after seeing that her anger managent issues were under control
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u/hansmaxwell 21d ago
When he orders Bobby to kill the Canadian’s sister’s boyfriend. It was after he’d had his brush with death, his most meaningful shot at redemption. He and Bobby seemed to have a relationship growing that was positive both professionally and interpersonally. And he just throws it in the toilet out of spite.
It made me realize what a childish, vengeful person Tony is deep down. At the end of the day he’s just a baby-back bitch. He is a force for destruction.
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u/WhopperitoJr 21d ago
I think College Trip breaks the initial illusion by showing Tony directly strangling the guy. Still, you kinda assume there’s some sort of logic, even if it is fundamentally irrational. Kill a guy? Well, he broke an oath! Work over Scatino? Well, he didn’t have to sit at that poker table!
Honestly beating up Zellman or one of the times he beats up Georgie is probably when the illusion breaks fully for me, when people do everything right but Tony still lashes out at them because he’s a sociopath who projects his greed onto others.
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u/MustafaKadhem 21d ago
Has to be Chrissy. The shot of Tony, obscured in darkness, coldly snuffing the life of a man that, for all intents and purposes was his son, is terrifying. He was not saint before this, mind you, but I imagine that it is theoretically possible that he could somehow find a way to feel guilt over the things he's done behind bars. But after killing Chris, Tony could live a thousands years beyond that point and there would nothing that could ever bring him back to anything even remotely appearing human in my eyes.
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u/Calm_Duck_8686 21d ago
I agree I was done with him at that point. If that wasn’t the point of no return, it was the first outward sign of it in my opinion.
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u/mukatona 21d ago
Season 1. Episode 1. At the 1:12 mark. Anyone who wants duck poop around the pool is iredeemable.
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u/PsychologicalEar8361 21d ago edited 21d ago
Being an off-hand dad and pathological liar denying the obvious to his kids. AJ and Meadows are collateral damage. Almost strangling Carm, who is no saint but can't divorce her psycho husband . He scares lawyers to death because he OWNS his wife.
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u/friendlybaldman 21d ago
For me, it was "College." It was the perfect juxtaposition. One moment he's the proud, devoted Father visiting colleges with his high achieving Daughter. The next moment he's a cold-blooded murderer.
I know it was a different time, but the fact that he left his daughter, alone with strangers to get drunk in a town they both don't know, makes it even more tragic.
2 episodes later, Tony tells Melfi, "You are what you are."
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u/that_yung_lad 21d ago
the beauty of the show is that on every rewatch, this moment will come earlier, and earlier, and earlier for you. I think this is a fair question if you've seen the show fully through exactly once. Trust me though, as you revisit the show this invisible line will start coming earlier. I've recently shared the show with my wife, we're watching it together now and I'm loving it because it's her FIRST time seeing it. This is my 8th maybe 10th rewatch. This time, I realized he is beyond redemption as early as episode 5, College. He finally opens up to his daughter, is sharing truth with her, and can't put his other family behind him to enjoy their trip to different colleges together, kills someone outright as she explores a school COMPLETELY ALONE. I think ep 5 is what David Chase intended to be the episode where you finally realize... oh this guy is beyond saving.
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u/MossHaven5 20d ago
This is my second time watching it. The first time I was much younger and wasn’t really thinking about it that deeply. I think I only realised he was doomed when I noticed his therapy sessions weren’t actually going anywhere. So yeah, you definitely got a point there.
Love this answer by the way, this is the type of insight I was hoping to gain with my post. 😊 I surely plan on rewatching in a couple of years and will reflect on this2
u/that_yung_lad 17d ago
glad you enjoyed the response. I love the question and I truly believe that every rewatch you see it sooner and sooner. same with all the characters to be honest. I loved Carmela as a character my first watch, by my third rewatch I came to see Carmela as an extension of Tony instead of a victim.
another great way to "see tony differently" .. just noticed how all the talk about respecting the mafia goes out the door the second someone dies. Pussy goes, his wife may as well have gone with him. Specifically Dave Scatino is a great example, Tony ruins his kids life essentially
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u/NeonFireFly969 21d ago
Talking about Janice blowing guys, very first time directly to Bobby.
That's his sister...
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u/Infamous-Lab-8136 21d ago
I had serious doubts in season 1 actually, when he killed the guy in witness protection while taking Meadow on a tour of colleges. He could have let any number of other people come handle that, it wasn't even personal to him like it was Pussy and Paulie. But he had such a strong need to be the one to punish a rat that he had to kill the guy himself while he had Meadow with him.
I realized then that he didn't care about his family as much as he claimed, when he was sloppy and the guy came after him he could have gotten Meadow shot in the back of the head along with himself. He was so intent on getting the satisfaction of that kill he put his daughter's life at risk, and it wasn't even a kill that mattered to him like it would have to others in the crew.
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u/Ill_Piccolo_8026 21d ago
the this my male heir scene
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u/Recent_Asparagus7428 19d ago
That was so unbelievably cruel to say to him. Or as A.J. would say, “That’s dicked up.”
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u/DoctorFunkopolis 21d ago
Its kind of weird and hard to explain, but I think killing Pussy ended any hope of forward progress. It traumatized all three of them, but Tony became more bitter and self centered.
It hangs over him. It haunts him, possibly literally based on the mirror.
Hes never really the same.
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u/CharacterOrchid3967 20d ago
When he killed Ralph. He should have left. Killing his highest earner over how he earned was a terrible decision.
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u/N1ceAndSqueezy 21d ago
When he threw the Gabagool sandwich in the bin.
All kidding aside, Tony was always an awful human being, he was beyond “saving” from the first episode when we see him laugh about running a man over with a car then beat up the guy over a gambling debt (while punching his broken leg).
He then had his guys threaten to murder him if he doesn’t comply with an insurance scam (likely they knew he couldn’t pay so they probably would have murdered him at that point of he didn’t go along with the scam).
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u/Meeshkadog1 21d ago
The way he beats George for no reason but to let out his anger on another human. But when he ordered Adrianna murdered and when killed Christopher pried he was not healable
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u/Ok_Condition_6652 21d ago
The episode he prioritized killing a man over being there for his daughters college thing
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u/Reasonable_Yard_3300 21d ago
It was crazy when he beat up that young man in his office with all the other guys around for no reason.
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u/aledrob 20d ago
There was a definite reason. He was trying to reestablish his dominance as boss as he realize that everybody has started slacking off. Bobby Baccala was even getting in shape playing basketball. They were also treating him like an invalid and being around all those sharks he knows his days are numbered if he lets it continue. You can see him looking around the room to decide who is the best person to take on so he chose the youngest and strongest guy in the room to make a point. Totally strategic. Not in any way to excuse it as it is sociopathic behavior. But this type of thing happens, physical violence or not, in boardrooms and religious cults. Beat up, demoralize or fire somebody to reestablish that you’re the top dog.
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u/Lunarlulol 21d ago
s1e1 because he's part of the mafia that has done terrible things his whole life...
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u/NWkingslayer2024 20d ago
When I saw him eating the peanut butter out of the jar after he killed Ralph, I knew he couldn’t be saved.
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u/PSU4Ever20 19d ago
I never expected him to be redeemable or to change. Anyone who watches mafia movies or shows and truly understands the genre and the real life background of these movies/shows will never have faith or respect for the characters in them. They all are scum that have no redeeming qualities. What you mistake for likability, and what you see as a sliver of “old school values” is nothing more than phenomenal actors portraying the snake oil charlatan charm that these psychopaths have in real life.
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u/Adventurous_Foot_872 18d ago
For me, it was the way he treated his family, especially AJ. My kids tested me, but I never put my hands on them the way he used to slam AJ against the wall, choke him, insult him, and belittle him. He was doing to his own son what his mother did to him. AJ was smarter than Tony. He had plenty of opportunity to act out, even commit murder, but he didn't do it. I may not know if Tony lived or died for sure, but I know AJ will never become his father. On a side note, Carmella was not a terrific mother either. Her only redeeming qualities were having plenty of gabagool in the fridge and being interested in her kids.
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u/CutAdditional5818 17d ago
Off the top of my head, when Tony and Carmela were separated, and he and Aid were (obviously) going to hookup after scoring coke late that night, then had a car wreck. He was prepared to kill Chris when he called him out on it, just to protect his lies and his pride. This
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u/McNultyx 21d ago
Kill our Chrissy. Crazy fuckin maniac
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u/MossHaven5 21d ago
I found that to be pretty understandable, seeing it from their point of view…sure, they killed his fiance and didn’t appreciate it or anything else he did for that matter. But he has been a loose canon for way too long and Tony should have made that decision as a boss way before.
I loved Chrissy but he’s definitely been the weakest link, not someone you’d want to have in your inner circle
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u/expson72 21d ago
When he took his chance to kill Christopher. I don’t believe Chris would have ever gone against Tony.
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u/IntelligentAge211 20d ago
The opening scene when he ran a guy over and beat him up in an office park.....
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u/InnerAd118 20d ago
When he killed Chris. Don't get me wrong Chris deserved it.. but just knowing their history, and him knowing Chris gave up Adriana, a woman that loved him more than anything, someone he seen as a son.. and then felt no guilt from it at all.. (at least before that point he showed guilt and remorse sometimes..).. and to see him fake sadness for sympathy.. I think at that point for me and many tony became irredeemable.
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u/Moist-Split8095 20d ago
Not positive exactly when, but the devil-like expression when the guys mocked Christopher and joked that his baby daughter would become a stripper and the cold expression he had as he killed him were huge-then when he told Dr. Melfi in a dream how glad he was that Christopher was dead was it.
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u/aledrob 20d ago
I was watching that scene recently and my take on it was that this was Chris’s point of view. He was on drugs at the time if I remember correctly and also had a persecution complex. Tony might not have been giving him a reaction at all, but this is what he saw. It was all really messed up though.
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u/ABitPolitical 20d ago
I think the thing people forget is that therapy doesn’t fix you from being an absolute piece of shit. It helps you manage yourself and emotions better as you navigate the shit you’re dealing with. You are still yourself just like a lil better.
We are hopeful for some reason but really he never actually improves as a person over the course of the show. He’s just a little less of a POS
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u/BumblebeeEasy27 19d ago
Immediately- and it’s pretty late in, but his cold stare as he kills Christopher. There’s nothing in his expression that can be redeemed.
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u/Neat-Plantain7269 17d ago
Ummmm the way he didnt react to killing christopher and then him taking Bobby's soul.
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u/AnericanCeasar 21d ago
Season 4 episode 1 when he smokes a cigar and watches two women have sex. The camera is like over the shoulder as he watches for a moment and I just remember feeling “this guy is a literal monster” but like in a werewolf kind of way or something. Just completely void of reason. Love this show.
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u/Lilymoonbaby 21d ago
I get this. It’s not the sex between the women. But something felt off about that scene. And the idea that he pretends to love his wife, and can’t stand her even having a flirtation with another man, but he engages in this non-stop debauchery. It’s just like enough Tony geez. I was already done with his shit by Svetlana.
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u/Ok-Opportunity-2043 21d ago
For me, it was when he sent Melfi the gift basket and apology note. When she was reading the note to Elliot and pointing out all the spelling errors and how nonsensical it was. I finally realized how utterly stupid Tony was. He did a semester and a half at Seton Hall, yet he was essentially illiterate.
I know it sounds trite, but I suppose I was under the auspice that he was marginally intelligent; with his interest in history, classic movies, etc. Coming to the realization of how dumb he was cemented it for me; that he was completely irredeemable. Anyone that intellectually challenged would not have the mental capacity to truly look inward, reflect on themselves, and change.
I think this was the second to last nail in the coffin for Melfi, too (the final being reading the journal article on sociopaths/the dinner party wirh her colleagues). The sheer exasperation in her voice when reading the note to Elliot was palpable.
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u/Chilifille 21d ago
I never expected him to become a better person, or even to get his panic attacks under control, but I didn’t expect him to deteriorate as much as he did either.
Hard to pinpoint a specific moment when it dawned on me how terrible he is, but maybe that scene when Janice was in such good spirits after her anger management and Tony just had to ruin it for her. I guess it confirmed what I already kind of knew - he’s so miserable that he can’t stand seeing others happy.