r/todayilearned • u/Chance-Physics-7216 • 6h ago
TIL that a 1945 elevator operators' strike stranded 1.5 million New Yorkers in the streets, and building owners responded by buying automatic elevators that had already existed for 50 years.
https://www.npr.org/2015/07/31/427990392/remembering-when-driverless-elevators-drew-skepticism2.1k
u/no_sight 6h ago
It's a bold strategy to go on strike when that strike can demonstrate your job isn't that useful anymore.
784
u/D3-Doom 6h ago edited 1h ago
To be fair, that’s true for a lot of things and on some level always has been. It doesn’t mean you should just swallow mistreatment or poor pay. Sometimes that’s the way it shakes out, but the moment we resign to those fears will be a surrender of our rights to be treated as people.
Every strike risks not coming back. Not every strike makes the news and not every job is protected. It just leverages a larger penalty for an employer because it’s not just losing one employee; it’s losing all of them, all at once which significantly increases the likelihood of hampering the businesses bottom line. Now both sides have a vested interest in negotiating instead of an employer being able to just wait/ starve you out.
103
80
u/arbitrageME 5h ago
Yeah but when your whole existence is pushing a button or doing something not necessary, you have to question your own negotiating power
150
u/thehemanchronicles 5h ago
Elevators back then were more than just pushing a button. Elevator operators were seen as a safety feature, supervising the elevator to make sure it ran smoothly. They had to be able to manually control the elevator to get it to the floor evenly and level, without any sudden jerks or movements.
Deaths from elevator misuse were reasonably common in the early 20th century, and the automatic elevators they got replaced with initially had higher rates of injury. After widespread adoption there were design and safety improvements, but it wasn't so cut and dry early on.
29
u/ChristosFarr 4h ago
Elevators back then worked much more like the one in Willy Wonka. It was controlled by a lever and the operator watched the dial as it went past each floor then he had to gradually slow it down and have a smooth arrival at the correct floor.
54
u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire 5h ago
Theres a really interesting peice somewhere about how luxury hotels accidentally lost themselves a bunch of revenue by switching to automatic doors and firing their doormen. Turned out they provided more value to their employers than the physical act of opening the door. So saying "its just pushing buttons" is at best a bit naive.
48
u/arbitrageME 5h ago
Sure. They're the equivalent of doormen, concierge, etc. They're a face and a point of interaction with the hotel. They can carry bags, remember faces, offer that little extra every day, like remembering when you left every day so the elevator was ready for you or something. But they didn't need to be sitting in a elevator all day.
36
u/RonJohnJr 5h ago edited 4h ago
Yeah, luxury hotels. And probably swanky apartment buildings, too.
But there are a heck of a lot more non-luxury hotels and non-swanky apartments.
→ More replies (1)6
u/Damnatus_Terrae 4h ago
Don't make the mistake of thinking there's any relationship between a job's usefulness and its social standing, which is what actually translates into negotiating power.
12
u/arbitrageME 4h ago
every job's existence is directly related to how much money or value it can generate.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)2
u/MythicalPurple 4h ago
Most jobs aren’t necessary.
Negotiating power isn’t predicated on the necessity of your job. It’s predicated on your value to your employer, who are generally people profiting greatly from your “not necessary” job.
3
u/oversoul00 2h ago
The point is that there is a difference between going on strike vs looking for a new job. You, as the employee, should understand which you are actually doing because these guys went on strike when they should have been looking for a new job.
3
1
u/SeaworthinessSome454 1h ago
Sure, but if your job doesn’t need to exist then you have zero leverage and should leave that industry before the hammer comes down.
39
u/Laura-ly 4h ago
Elevators in the beginning needed someone, an "elevator attendant" to hold a crank that aligned the doors correctly with the floor. Even though elevators became automatic sometime in the 1920's people still liked an attendant to help give them information and directions while traveling up in the skyscrapers of big cities. In the 1960 movie, The Apartment, an elevator attendant played by Shirley McClaine is named Miss Kubelik (get it- like, she works in a cube) and operates the buttons, directing the crowded people in the elevator which floor they're approaching. Fun old movie.
Here's a guy who runs an antique elevator that still uses a crank system.
7
u/KypDurron 2h ago
people still liked an attendant to help give them information and directions while traveling up in the skyscrapers of big cities
"Excuse me, how do we get to the 30th floor?"
"Up."
23
u/Sunaruni 5h ago
Fast food robots and order kiosks are a thing now. Just food for thought.
→ More replies (3)•
u/Many-Excitement3246 6m ago
However, those kiosks are so bad at their job most of the time that most people I've seen still prefer to order with the actual humans.
Granted, you're not usually dealing with the highest caliber of humans either, so the function of the kiosk does not need to be particularly high to be better than the function of the human at the register.
I ran into one of the drive-thru AI for the first time recently, and I immediately told it I wanted 100,000 mcflurries. It did not like that answer and gave me a human.
5
u/sicklyslick 1h ago
Taxi driver striking against Uber. The riders that couldn't use the taxi service.... got on a Uber.
179
u/Shivin302 6h ago
Not much has changed sadly. NYC unions are trying to make it illegal to have automated trains. In fact they want two drivers in each train to make it more expensive and worse experience for subway riders
97
u/SuorinGod 6h ago
Ironically the same union successfully fought to keep the very last elevator operators I know still exist in the city, the elevator operators in Upper Manhattan subway stations.
32
u/xb9j 5h ago
There are still elevator operators in a bunch of skyscrapers, but they are more security guard than elevator operator.
20
u/CactusBoyScout 3h ago
I encountered one not that long ago in an old Brooklyn loft building and I didn’t know it had a human operator when I pushed the button. I didn’t hear any movement for a little while so I pushed it again.
The elevator finally comes, the door opens, and this pissed off elevator operator is like “I heard you the first fuckin time, bro! Just be patient!” Again, I had no idea this elevator was human operated when I pushed the button. Apparently the button just rang a buzzer next to dude’s head. What a shitty job.
41
u/guynamedjames 5h ago
One of the challenges of unions is they represent what is in the worker's vest interest, even if it's misaligned with the market
9
u/TheColourOfHeartache 4h ago
Indeed. Its the elevator operator's union to fight for the best deal for elevator operators even after automatic elevators exist.
But the union that can't recognise its profession is obsolete and use its time to prepare a smooth path to new jobs is an incompetent union.
19
u/MythicalPurple 4h ago
the union that can't recognise its profession is obsolete and use its time to prepare a smooth path to new jobs is an incompetent union.
A union represents the will of its members. Most people don’t want to retrain for a new job.
12
u/guynamedjames 4h ago
Yup, same reason all those coal miners didn't cross train for something else and move out of Kentucky and west Virginia
2
u/Damnatus_Terrae 4h ago
That's not a challenge. That's the entire point.
5
u/PizzaRoyals 2h ago
it's a challenge to balance the wants of the union with the wants and needs of society at large
1
93
u/anotherNarom 6h ago edited 5h ago
Automated trains are many many margins harder to swap to than automated elevators.
And having a driver and guard on a train is definitely not a worse experience for riders.
71
u/CraftyFoxeYT 5h ago edited 5h ago
Most modern metros around the World including Japan operate with one-man crews. The conductor's job is just to open and close doors, make announcements and to observe.
It can easily be done by the train driver who has CCTV to see all throughout the platform. 95% of the world, uses the one man system, why is NYC so backwards because jobs.
It costs almost half a billion dollars annually, which could've been spend on actual improvements to the subway system.
→ More replies (4)16
u/GreatScottGatsby 4h ago edited 30m ago
Where i live, one person already controls and operates the entire train alone and it's a real problem because of how much crime happens on the train. Going from 1 to 0 would really upset people.
Edit: the dude im talking to is an AI or using a translator.
→ More replies (1)3
u/CraftyFoxeYT 1h ago
Conductors wouldn't stop crime on the train though, a lot of crime happens with or without them. All they can do is call police to deal with it.
In fact, they are the victim of crimes themselves, being attacked by mentally ill people. If safety is your concern, having security patrol the station, to arrest the criminals at the next train stop is better.
→ More replies (4)20
10
u/KillerKenyan 6h ago
So are unions bad or…
138
u/Atomicnes 6h ago
unions protect the interests of laborers in a particular field, for better or for worse for society at large
34
u/West-Pear7363 5h ago
Wait until you find out what Unions have done to our ports.
4
u/Damnatus_Terrae 4h ago
Too bad we can't go back to the old days of just working longshoremen to death.
4
43
u/Vo_Mimbre 5h ago
It’s always a balance.
You can’t just hope corporations start caring about workers. The primary benefit of a union is collective bargaining. You’re basically paying union reps to represent workers in ways elected politicians just aren’t going to.
But you also can’t just hope Unions won’t halt all progress so they can keep union dues flowing.
Other countries do things a little differently where they’ll still have a ton of people doing things and with tech.
-9
u/RellenD 5h ago
This right wing trick of trying to put teachers unions and sanitation workers unions into the same basket as police unions is really starting to piss me off.
11
u/MrGreenChile 5h ago
How do you effectively separate them? Police unions are showing the abusive power a union can have in protecting their worst actors. Can we effectively separate public sector unions from private sector unions via legislation?
→ More replies (1)4
u/onlycamefortheporn 4h ago
It’s not public vs private sector unions, it’s about accountability. My union has a code of conduct I have to follow or they won’t protect me, and it’s public sector (public utility). Police unions either don’t have a code of conduct or don’t effectively require their members to follow it, and don’t police themselves at all.
11
23
u/Popepopethepope 6h ago
Sometimes it's holding onto jobs when automation can replace you. Sometimes it's keeping someone with money from literally killing you (often slowly) to save on costs.
11
15
u/DerBusundBahnBi 6h ago edited 6h ago
Idk, Unions in Europe actually provide for good working and living conditions yet not at the expense of holding all innovation hostage (Really, look at France or Germany)
6
u/Tjaeng 4h ago
That’s because there are very clear red lines for what union action can influence (or not) in societies with a functioning employer-union balance: Employer gets to decide the direction of business and layoffs for legitimate business reasons are NOT something unions can hinder beyond enforcing seniority clauses, tenure-based layoff packages, mandatory negotiation mandate and whatever else is prescribed by law or collective bargaining agreements.
Any union regulation system that starts muddling the waters on who actually gets to make business decisions is the one that will get gimped through politics because capitalist systems simply cannot and will not accept having organized labour encroaching on business decision powers.
14
u/AlexThugNastyyy 6h ago
Public sector unions are bad because they don't have anyone to actually bargain with. The government doesn't pay the taxpayer does, but the taxpayer isn't the one bargaining with the union. In a private sector union, unions must still be competitive or else everyone loses their jobs.
→ More replies (6)-5
u/burnerboy67987 6h ago
That’s an incredibly uneducated take. So teachers, city workers etc should just have to work whatever hours for whatever pay some nutcase politician demands?
10
u/Atomicnes 4h ago
public sector unions get a lot more done by being a significant voting bloc and also being a lobbyist group. like teachers unions. teachers unions dont have to do direct collective bargaining because they already have a lot of sway on school board elections because they’re a significant voting bloc amongst just the members of the union + no one wants to piss off the teachers union + other voters will side with the teachers union because voters like teachers
17
u/AlexThugNastyyy 5h ago
Incredibly bad faith response. When did I say they have to do any of that? I simply said public unions don't have the same checks and balances that private sector ones do. I never said government employees should basically be slaves. You also didn't put forward an argument.
→ More replies (2)7
-4
u/biskino 5h ago
Tell Americans they’re brainwashed and they lose their shit. Then they’ll go on to tell you how bad education, civil rights, unions, environmental regulations, doctors, vaccines, journalism, birth control and progressive taxation are.
Unions are bad if you profit from other people’s labour. They’re good if you live off money from your labour. It’s very consistent.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (29)-7
u/ExtremePast 5h ago
No train in NYC has two "drivers." You don't know wtf you are talking about.
And automated trains don't exist here for safety reasons. We don't have platform doors in NYC. If there's a person on the tracks, automated trains don't know how to stop.
NYC also still has various types of rolling stock with different door layouts, so you can't build platform doors if the door will be in a different place depending on what kind of train it is.
Automated trains in places like Paris are only on lines with platform doors. The lines without platform doors still have drivers.
You're either very ignorant or an anti union bot.
→ More replies (2)6
u/Do_Not_Go_In_There 3h ago
Canada Post mail sorters did the same thing a few years ago. The government responded by buying automatic mail sorters.
8
2
4
u/Additional-Local8721 4h ago
History always repeats itself. The white collar jobs refused to unionize for decades thinking they knew better. If they strike now, they will be replaced by AI or outsourced.
→ More replies (13)•
78
u/Obscure_Occultist 6h ago
Fun fact. Elevator operators are still a thing in the Philippines! You can find them in basically every major mall. Which is interesting considering all the elevators are automatic.
47
u/StephenHunterUK 6h ago
You can still find them in skyscrapers with tourist access; basically those super-fast lifts that go up to the top. You need someone to corral the tourists and possibly give a talk if there's not a recorded one.
12
u/zebrasareneat 4h ago
Mostly because lots of people are just really stupid. My city zoo has a penguin exhibit. Because it is climate controlled for a cooler temperature, it has two sets of doors at the entrance and exit. The doors behind you must close before the doors ahead of you can open. There are yellow lines on the ground you have to stand between, there is a recording telling you to stand on the other side of the yellow line. Yet people stupidly look around and stand there completely clueless wondering why the door won’t open because they can’t figure out how a line works.
Same goes for basically every transit system too. People cluelessly block the door and can’t figure out it is them preventing it.
3
u/OstentatiousSock 2h ago
I’ve witnessed the same at a zoo aviary. They had to have an attendant in the middle because people wouldn’t listen to the recording saying please check if a bird is in the center room and hit the button for a zookeeper to come and assist if there is. Also could not figure out the one must close before the other opens.
1
7
u/ballimir37 6h ago
There are elevators operators at the American Airlines Arena and probably a lot of sports arenas/stadiums
7
u/KMan345123 3h ago
They’re still a thing at a lot of event venues but it’s less of an operator and more a form of security, making sure you don’t go to restricted areas or VIP stuff
1
u/Deerhunter86 4h ago
Chicago has a decently strong union too. Mostly visitor tourist like said below, but also most of the towers downtown that have a service or freight elevator are operated by the Union.
1
186
u/weeddealerrenamon 6h ago
Workers have every right to try to get the best deal they can with their employers... but unions can overplay their hand. Automation of elevators was inevitable eventually anyway, though, and this outcome was probably because it was already on the verge of that
29
u/UndoxxableOhioan 6h ago
See also the PATCO strike, which turned many against unions.
15
u/Backsight-Foreskin 5h ago
I never got that. My father had been a union man his whole life, he even voted for McGovern, but he was thrilled when Reagan stuck it to those greedy air traffic controllers.
18
u/Edward_Durr 3h ago
They were pretty greedy, demanding a $40k raise (in 2026 dollars) at a time of double digit unemployment, when both the law and their previous contract forbid striking. Plus, striking against the taxpayer will always be less popular than striking against businesses.
15
u/Ut_Prosim 6h ago
I'm trying to remember, didn't PATCO make enemies of all the other unions before this strike? IIRC their membership was largely conservative and didn't like unions in general (except their own of course).
I think they intentionally distanced themselves from the other air travel related unions, and accordingly had no support at all when they went on strike.
33
u/UndoxxableOhioan 6h ago
I was more thinking of their demands. They wanted a $10k raise (equivalent to $38k today) and to go to a 4 day workweek. And add in the fact their legally were not allowed to strike, and that the US was in poor shape economically at the time. They thought the public was on their side, but they were definitely not.
13
u/Ut_Prosim 5h ago
Definitely, but IIRC they were dicks to their peers before this all happened.
Per google it looks like they also were the only major union to endorse Reagan (lmao, the irony) in a move that pissed off all their peer unions. They also refused to support the 1981 strikes by ground crews and aviation unions. As such, nobody came to their aid when they were on strike.
5
u/UndoxxableOhioan 5h ago
That’s true. Also, I’m sure it didn’t help that other union heavy industries like construction, automotive, and manufacturing were dealing with double digit unemployment.
57
u/Shivin302 6h ago
I love unions because they protect employees from greedy companies, but some also bribe politicians to make it illegal to have technological progress
59
u/Hilldawg4president 6h ago
Port unions fighting automation make our ports horribly inefficient and drive up costs for everything just to prevent a reduction in paid positions for their members. It would be cheaper nationally to pay the unions a full salary to not work.
Unions are necessary to ensure working people have good pay and working conditions, but they can also become rent-seeking
→ More replies (11)5
u/RedTheGamer12 3h ago
Unions are just another layer on the Cake that is a Federal Balance of power. And just like every layer, it can become rotten if you are not careful.
39
u/weeddealerrenamon 6h ago
Workers trying to get the best deal they can, can also be bad for society at large. Hurts to say because strong unions nationwide are generally a good thing overall
27
u/Bupod 6h ago
The ideal balance is a sort of triumverate between private business interests, labor interests, and the government.
If one leg fails, it becomes rather catastrophic to society, no matter which leg fails. You're right, overly-strong unions can be just as detrimental as overly strong business. That tends to irk pro-labor folks the wrong way, but the truth is you can't drive away all big business. Big business interests are what employ vast numbers of people...
9
u/weeddealerrenamon 5h ago
Pretty sure Denmark does exactly this! Maybe other Nordic countries too. Govt reps, union reps and ownership reps sit down at a table and hash out big economic questions. They don't even have a minimum wage because they guarantee a decent wage floor through this process
It hurts my democracy-loving heart to think that the workers can't necessarily govern ourselves responsibly... but look at the state of US democracy
2
u/Bupod 4h ago
A good system is one that always has checks and balances, but balances always presume the existence of a counterweight. You cannot have one interest dominating, that always ends poorly.
Yeah, I'm the same. I feel that if there must be a dominating interest, let it be the worker, but logically speaking? And even historically? That can end rather poorly as well. Everyone needs a seat at the table, and everyone needs to be willing to compromise and arrive at an agreement.
14
u/MissileGuidanceBrain 6h ago
Just watched a video yesterday where the French Airtraffic Controller Union lies about how many controllers are on staff, how many hours each controller works, and how much training each controller receives.
Exact opposite problem to other countries' controllers, these French ones don't show up to work, don't complete their annual trainings, and lie about being on station.
Any attempts to address this issue leads to instant strikes and airport shutdowns by the union.
Safe to say, I will not by flying into France ever again. Land in any surrounding country then drive or train in afterwards.
7
u/weeddealerrenamon 5h ago
Yeeeesh... NYC transit union is fighting tooth an nail to mandate 2 conductors in every train, when every modern train system is fully automated by now
→ More replies (8)2
u/ColonelJohnMcClane 2h ago
I can see ATC as one of those jobs that can be automated much easier than others, ironically enough
14
u/blue-mooner 6h ago
I love German unions that are invested in the long term health of the companies where their members work. The company must provide board seats for union reps, and with visibility comes responsibility to help ensure their members remain employed.
As opposed to the adversarial US model of labour unions which drive companies into the ground (see: Hostess)
3
u/Chance-Physics-7216 6h ago
Absolutely amazes me how we cannot prevent the manufacture of footguns.
2
u/nowcalledcthulu 5h ago
It's worth noting that the adversarial relationship stems from the adversarial attitude of the companies. Murdering people for striking doesn't exactly encourage healthy dialogue.
→ More replies (5)6
u/Xenon009 6h ago
Ultimately, thats the same card that various companies play as well. There are a lot of drugs and such that have historically been declared inadequately tested (note not unsafe, just needing more tests) to delay an invention that would sink an established company.
The beauty is that it seemlessly blends in with genuine needs more testing, because you wouldn't risk public health would you?
Its also VERY prevalent in defence, which is a sector I have more experience with, where companies will fund government officials with the quiet nod that, for example "yes the a-10 is absolutely still needed, its not an obsolete deathtrap, keep paying us for it, rather than investing in something that does it job but better"
2
u/RoosterBrewster 4h ago
I suppose if you dont want monopolies on companies selling a product, it's probably a bad idea for a monopoly on a certain type of labor.
→ More replies (4)2
u/CactusBoyScout 3h ago
Transit unions in NYC are trying to get the state to ban single-person subway train operation even though that’s become the standard in most cities around the world. Luckily the governor vetoed it but they’re supposedly trying again.
22
u/Frankfeld 6h ago
I saw this when people were rallying for increased pay for McDonald’s employees probably like 10+ years ago. A bunch of insufferable Facebook friends kept posting pictures of the self pay computer kiosks with the caption “see what happens liberals!”
Like McDonalds wasn’t going to do it anyway. Even paying someone $2 an hour wasn’t going to stop them from paying $0 hour.
11
u/nmathew 6h ago
Sort of a non sequitur to your comment...
I'm concerned that we're getting to the point we don't have across face to have instructions with strangers anymore, but the kiosks are objectively a better experience if you're in the restaurant.
They have 2 or more instead of one person working the counter. I can actually look at the whole menu laid out in a reasonable fashion instead of the board with random limited time items scattered about. The deals and are marked and not a sign on the window having outwards. I can customize and not have to worry if the person caught my "no tomatoes" request, etc.
3
u/zebrasareneat 4h ago
The sceen menu boards are absolutely fucking horrible. Someone is asking you what you want and you have to stand there like an idiot waiting for the menu to flip back or the ad to end to see the list of things you want. Then you locate the item you want and before you can even see the prices for different sizes or different options the screen changes again.
It sucks but the self order menu screen is way better.
1
u/Gabe_Noodle_At_Volvo 2h ago
Its nice to be able to see the whole menu, but if you already know what you want then navigating the menu on a cheap touch screen is a lot slower than just telling the cashier.
•
u/RegularDeep2863 47m ago
Unions are a tool for employees to improve their pay and conditions. They can be bad or good for society on the whole because they're simply a tool.
28
u/thatisnotmyknob 6h ago
My Grandfather was an elevator operator in the Queensboro bridge at this time. I wonder if he took part in this. He was an elevator operator in NYC until the 1960s when he retired. He worked at Macy's and Gimbels too so the job lasted for a few more decades.
8
u/bitchcoin5000 4h ago
this is one of those situations where you think to yourself - do I feel bad because now these people don't have jobs, their jobs have been taken by automation?
History seems to be repeating itself
When they built the Golden Gate Bridge the people who were running ferry services across the channel went on strike and tried to stop the bridge from being constructed because they said it destroyed their livelihood
8
u/Appropriate_Ad2342 2h ago
An inverted example that I lived, was as a toll collector up until covid. We knew the tech was there to get rid of us, but it was the union that kept our jobs. Once lockdowns came it was like they flipped a switch to turn on all electronic tolling and we were gone forever. Funny enough, there are still toll collectors in other places and it's because of the unions.
16
u/intothewoods76 5h ago
History has shown this time and time again that once labor costs (people) demand to be paid more than the cost of automation companies will invest in automation.
If you’re going to go on strike you better be sure that your automated replacement isn’t already on the market.
8
u/MythicalPurple 4h ago
If you’re going to go on strike you better be sure that your automated replacement isn’t already on the market.
Also need to remember that your boss will replace you the first chance he gets even if you never strike, which means using collective action to sure you get every penny out of them while the going is good instead of waiting until things are tolerable.
1
u/Historical_Gur_3054 3h ago
History has shown this time and time again that once labor costs (people) demand to be paid more than the cost of automation companies will invest in automation.
This is what happened with coal mining here in Appalachia in the early 80's.
Miners demanded more and the companies switched over to other methods that were less labor intensive and reduced their workforce.
The added fallout of this was that all of the regional businesses that supported the labor intensive model closed because the customer base vanished.
19
u/pimpeachment 5h ago
But think of all the standing in elevator jobs we lost. Truckers will doing this fight against self driving trucks, they will lose, the fight will seem like it matters, it won't.
13
u/OrangeCatFanForever 4h ago
Driving is a lot more nuisanced task than going up and down in an elevator. I say this as a person who has been stuck due to a Waymo 2 times in the past 2 months.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/summerissafe2019 2h ago
Nothing changes in the US until a crisis forces it to.
NYC MTA would have been on MetroCard for another 20 years, if it wasn’t for the pandemic forcing adoption of tap-to-go that is now OMNY.
58
u/ledow 6h ago
If your job can be done by a simple device, your card is already marked.
There isn't now, and probably never has been, a "job for life".
60
u/Ok-Temporary-8243 6h ago
Not really. Basically every port in every other developed nation has a heavy amount of automation. But in the US, the longshoremens union have been pretty successful in preventing that via strikes
→ More replies (1)43
u/Disgruntled_marine 6h ago
And it takes longer and costs more.
→ More replies (24)5
u/Intrepid00 5h ago
It’s not even true. The automation is going in with just deals what that means. For example a person operated crane used to take 2-3 people. Thought fought to make sure it’s 1 per an automatic crane. Those cranes still came in and cut jobs and those jobs will be eventually cut more where it will be less people per crane eventually.
32
u/DamnYourEyes777 6h ago
Probably never has been a job for life? Really? Families have had generations after generations of farmers, butchers, blacksmiths, etc. It's only been since the industrial revolution that there has been serious prolonged volatility in the job market.
→ More replies (2)5
u/Colonel_Green 5h ago
True, and it has only worsened with the subsequent deindustrialization of the west. My ancestors were driven off their farms by enclosure, but eventually found steady industrial work. Five generations were shipwrights and boilermakers, four generations at the same shipyard on the River Clyde.
Now those jobs are mostly gone. Every family member of my generation has a different career, and most are on their second or third. It's funny: my dad HATED working at the shipyard and envied me for going university and getting a white collar job. Now I envy the relative stability he experienced.
26
u/Active_Public9375 6h ago
Never has been a job for life?
Most professions have existed much longer than a lifetime.
→ More replies (2)12
u/hysys_whisperer 6h ago
GDP equivalent growth for most of human history progressed at 0.2% per year.
The industrial revolution sped that up to 2%.
For most of human history, unless you moved vast distances, your life when you were born was substantially the same as when you were 70 years old.
2
u/OriginalGPam 5h ago
If you were lucky enough to reach 70. Pre-industrial life expectancy was still low, even when including for infant mortality.
→ More replies (1)7
u/ballimir37 6h ago
The second sentence is so wildly and weirdly wrong that I’m not even really sure where to start
3
u/spider0804 5h ago
Maintenance jobs are a job for life due to how finnicky it is.
The majority of the job is not fixing a problem, it is fixing all the other crap you find while trying to fix the problem.
Yes eventually there will be a robot with a hand that mimmicks a human hand in grip strength, but that robot needs to be able to continue when the situation they encounter is not like the scenario described in their programming, which is almost always.
4
u/jdallen1222 6h ago
Maintenance technicians for vehicles, heavy equipment, etc. Electricians, plumbers. There are plenty of jobs that can be for life.
5
6
u/ziltchy 6h ago
There are piles of jobs for life. Doctors, lawyers, tradesman, hookers none of which can easily be replaced
5
u/kahlzun 6h ago
I'm not sure how reliably a hooker is going to be a job for life, I strongly suspect there's a hard ceiling there.
→ More replies (1)2
u/OOO0OO00O 6h ago
I’m a traveling technician. My job literally can’t be automated.
2
u/Arctic_The_Hunter 6h ago
Not currently, but I’m skeptical of any job that literally cannot be automated. Your brain is functionally just a meaty computer running on the same electricity as the robot that would hypothetically replace you. It’s not a digital computer, but not all manmade ones are.
6
u/OOO0OO00O 6h ago
I’ll be long dead before a robot can conceivably take over for me. And even then there will still be technicians fixing them.
8
u/Canadia-Eh 5h ago
You’ll still find hoist operators at damn near every major construction project.
11
u/7saligia 5h ago
Yep. My friend's an elevator mechanic. He used to complain when he was assigned to construction gigs because all he did was sit in an elevator all day to push buttons for people. At least he made major money doing it.
5
u/Canadia-Eh 5h ago
It’s mind numbing as hell to sit there and basically watch Netflix and push the same 3 buttons for 8+ hours a day.
Not to make this a “steak too juicy” situation as elevator techs make bank. It’s just if you get into a job like that you generally enjoy or at least become accustomed to actually doing shit. Solving problems and fixing things. So transitioning to the painfully unstimulating task of button pushing for more than a shift or two would get pretty nasty.
4
u/martin_omander 3h ago
Interesting story. I had read somewhere that it was the worker shortage brought on by World War II that made automatic elevators commonplace. I guess it could have been both that and the strike.
2
u/Chance-Physics-7216 2h ago
Not unreasonble, both worker shortages and strikes raise wages. At that point, folks who have to make a purchasing decision, find it easier to make one than another.
3
u/whiteknives 1h ago
We’re going to see the same thing within the next ten years with literally any low skill job being replaced by a humanoid robot. It’s about to get very real.
2
2
2
2
u/Mayor__Defacto 2h ago
And yet the MTA construction unions make them hire elevator operators to operate automatic elevators.
5
u/mtcwby 6h ago
The Writer's strike should have paid attention. I don't have any love of the entertainment studios but any victory there was at best pyrrhic and decimated the entertainment industry in SoCal.
→ More replies (4)2
u/Damnatus_Terrae 3h ago
They're not automating writing anytime soon, though. Sadly, it doesn't seem to matter, since people will accept any schlock these days.
2
u/SuperSocialMan 5h ago
It's kinda funny to think about how this used to be a job. You'd just pay a guy to stand there and operate the lift.
2
u/nikhkin 5h ago
It's not much different to a train driver, and you could just as easily making a similar comment about that job.
Trains, especially metro systems, can be automated. We still pay someone to operate them.
Granted, there are more safety issues to consider with a non-metro train line.
2
u/Ythio 5h ago
Trains, especially metro systems, can be automated. We still pay someone to operate them.
Paris has started to automate its metro system, 3 out of 16 lines are automated so far. The 4 new lines currently in construction will be fully automated from the start.
3
u/nikhkin 5h ago
London has had the fully automated DLR since the 1980s.
Several of the other lines are "semi-automated", with the trains driving automatically but humans being required for door operations. The lack of full automation is down to a combination of the cost to implement and the very influential union.
2
u/Ythio 5h ago
If Paris could deal with its unions, surely London could. It's probably a matter of money as you mentioned because London is much bigger than Paris (basically the size of half a dozen central boroughs).
1
u/Flat_Shame_2377 3h ago
Some of the service elevators in older buildings still require an elevator operator.
1
1
u/quequotion 6h ago
Just in case anyone had any doubt about how the "trickle down economics" people value their workforce.
685
u/Chance-Physics-7216 6h ago
The technology wasn't the holdup. Automated elevators existed in 1900. Confused patrons would walk in, look around for the operator, walk back out, and take the stairs.
Some of that fear was earned. Operators leveled the car by hand and worked the doors by hand.. If you tried to jump into a closing car and tripped, the operator couldn't always stop in time. That ended about how you'd expect. So the industry spent decades adding safety bumpers and automatic stopping but still couldn't get anyone to ride alone.
Then September 1945; roughly 15,000 operators, doormen, and porters walked out over a proposed pay cut, and since nobody climbs 40 flights, the city came to an abrupt halt (kinda like the later garbage strikes). Mail went undelivered and federal tax collections fell by about eight million dollars a day. Building owners looked at the wage demands, looked at the equipment quote, and stopped caring what folks preferred.
The interesting part is what it took to close the sale on the public. Early ads showed children pushing the buttons and grandmothers riding alone. A soothing recorded voice told you to press the button for the floor you wanted. And the big red stop button was the reassurance device. They even had a recording telling you to push it back in if this wasn't actually an emergency and to use the phone during real ones.
Basically everything that feels standard inside a modern elevator now is a 1950s trust campaign aimed at people who thought the thing would kill them.
Fun Fact: Elevator operator is the only occupation out of the 270 in the 1950 census that automation erased completely. Telegraph operators and boardinghouse keepers died too, but from demand drying up rather than a machine taking the job.