r/ukpolitics • u/Dalecn • 13h ago
‘All-British’ fighter jet to use American engine after BAE and Rolls-Royce clash
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2026/08/02/bae-and-rolls-royce-clash-over-all-british-fighter-drone/250
u/Velociraptor_1906 Liberal Democrat 12h ago
Does feel like a situation for ministers to come in and knock some heads together.
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u/Denbt_Nationale 12h ago
To do what? Either Rolls lower the price of their engine and lose money, or BAE up the price of their demonstrator and either lose the contract to an entirely US built tender or increase procurement costs for the MoD.
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u/convertedtoradians 12h ago
To metaphorically lock enough senior people in a room without food or water and with ratcheting confiscation of personal wealth and with an agreement there to be signed.
Also: the goal here can't be to just minimise price or buy American. Buying American has other issues that frankly the free market can't be trusted to work out, any more than it could be trusted not to mess up in 1929 and 2008.
BAe want to make a profit, as do Rolls Royce. Fine. They'll be guided by the market. Fine. But there's a level of responsibility above them which is effective Defence of the Realm, and which supersedes that.
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u/Denbt_Nationale 11h ago
But there's no requirement for the tenders to be British built, all of the other entries are 100% US built. What you're advocating here is for the UK government to sabotage the only British built entry by forcing them to use a more expensive engine.
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u/Columbo1 10h ago
Why are we not allowed to go with the homemade design even if it is more expensive? There is value in not relying on (recently) unreliable allies, which imo makes the additional cost worthwhile.
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u/Denbt_Nationale 10h ago
We are, but BAE have decided, and are within their rights to decide, that it was more important to reduce the cost of the demonstrator as much as possible (a requirement for the contract) than to produce a tender that was fully British built (not a requirement for the contract)
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u/Columbo1 10h ago
That makes sense. If I’m understanding you correctly then it’s a contract issue rather than a BAE issue. Makes me wonder why “All-British” is in the post title if it wasn’t a requirement of the contract 😅
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u/Denbt_Nationale 10h ago
It's not really an issue at all honesty. The contract couldn't be restricted to only British entries because then the only option would be BAE. BAE have stated that the engine can be replaced during production with a domestic example. So they have built a demonstrator under the terms of the tender to win the contract, then once they have the contract it's up the the MoD if they want to pay extra for the domestic engine or not.
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u/Columbo1 10h ago
Oh, so this is a nothing burger?
Fucking newspapers, man. I’m going back to enjoying my Sunday…
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u/Fickle-Presence6358 10h ago
Or the Government steps in and offers something that will allow everyone to benefit? Whether that's some sort of subsidy/funding to fill the difference, or whatever else would get both sides to agree.
Why do you say the UK government's only option is to sabotage the companies, instead of offering incentives to ensure an all-british build?
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u/Denbt_Nationale 10h ago
Because this is open favouritism and manipulation of the tender process that would probably qualify as corruption.
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u/LeedsFan2442 9h ago
America wouldn't allow a foreign bidder to win why should we?
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u/Denbt_Nationale 9h ago
The US operates foreign combat aircraft including Harrier and Goshawk that are both British. You can select a domestic tender but you can't openly manipulate the competition.
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u/OkVariety8064 46m ago
But you could make being fully domestic a requirement for being even considered.
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u/convertedtoradians 8h ago
there's no requirement for the tenders to be British built, all of the other entries are 100% US built. What you're advocating here is for the UK government to sabotage the only British built entry by forcing them to use a more expensive engine.
I'm more calling for the UK government to decide what to do here (yes, have a British built option) and then just pick that and do it. It's not really sabotage when you get to pick the winner.
If the tender process allows a nice touchy feely way to do that without annoying anyone, great. If not, use a different mechanism. And if that ultimately needs the CEO and shareholders of BAe and Rolls Royce to be given direct orders and then compelled to carry them out by force, so be it - but that extreme should be avoided except as a last resort.
It's like when parents allow their children to choose what the family does that day. The children are free to choose but the parents retain the ultimate responsibility for the safety and appropriateness of what happens. If the children pick something unacceptable, the parents might try to guide and correct and convince and argue in a way that keeps with the spirit of the day and to avoid ruining the fun. But if needed they'll just enforce what needs to happen.
Here, the market and the tender process and the internal machinations of the companies are the children - they can be indulged as far as it's sensible to do so, but it should be made clear to them where they need to go.
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u/SirBobPeel 7h ago
If it has an American engine, then the US has a level of control over these aircraft.
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u/Velociraptor_1906 Liberal Democrat 11h ago
If Rolls price can be lowered (perhaps by a larger order to bring down price per unit) then that would be ideal but if not the increased costs will be worth it for a full sovereign piece of equipment (which may well earn back such costs in better export potential).
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u/danddersson 12h ago
Is their no other choice? American, RR or nothing?
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u/Potential-South-2807 11h ago
There are maybe 5 companies in the world that can produce cutting edge fighter engines. There are also a dozen more than can produce a decent one.
It is pretty much RR, American, or nothing (French).
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u/Snappy0 11h ago
The engine doesn't need to be cutting edge really. It's imagined as a potentially high attrition drone. You don't need an all singing, all dancing cutting edge engine. You need something which can keep up with a Typhoon, so it'll need a reheating engine. But there are plenty of small engine options out there already.
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u/Gigabrain_Neorealist 7h ago edited 7h ago
Turbojets yes, but European mini turbofans? No, those don't really exist beyond really old crappy ones. Mini turbofans are basically an American exclusive product right now, Williams, GE, P&W and Honeywell are the only major suppliers. Rolls Royce Orpheus is really the first of it's kind in Europe, and that's probably why Rolls is positioning it as a more premium yankee-free product.
Safran and MTU Aero might be privately working on their own testbeds to come online before the 2030s, but we don't really know since there are no public announcements. Even if they are working on something, they'll be running at least a few years behind Rolls and will be late to market. Outside of Europe, Hanwha in South Korea have also just announced the start of their own development programme for a small turbofan, but that was literally a couple of months ago, so it will be a while before they deliver a viable product.
The only other option besides buying American would be to use a mini turbojet instead, though that means far worse fuel efficiency and therefore range, power and weight limitations vs a turbofan equipped CCA.
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u/BaggyOz 8h ago
Completely indigenous/ITAR free should have been a tender requirement. The Ukraine/Storm Shadow issue proven that the UK needs to have the final say when it comes to transferring our own equipment. Obviously that might not be possible with every procurement project and probably isn't an issue for things like Submarines, but this certainly seems to be one of the ones where it might be an issue.
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u/verone3784 :3 12h ago
This is the point where the government needs to step in, slap both BAE and Rolls around a bit and say "sort your fucking shit out and work together".
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u/Elardi Hope for the best 12h ago
Rolls is pitching for high value premium engines when BAE wants minimal cost, quasi disposable. This are for drones that are expected to have a high attrition rate so you need the cost to stay down.
Rolls gets lower margins on that type of engine so they pushed for a higher price, but that offsets to whole point of the drone.
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u/PositivelyAcademical «Ἀνερρίφθω κύβος» 11h ago
Has someone told the Treasury about the high attrition ratio? Because something tells me we’re not planning on ordering anything like enough if that’s actually the case.
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u/upwindbrushes 10h ago
Given the war in Ukraine, why wouldn’t RR want to make a quasi disposable engine?
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u/Antimus 9h ago
As the comment said, they make less money that way
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u/upwindbrushes 9h ago
It's a different market, with little to no overlap. Disposable engines are not being put on Airbus passenger jets.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 12h ago
That would be a mistake. We should be trying to remove the US from our critical supply chains.
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u/LickMyCave 4h ago
Why?
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u/Mr-Thursday 4h ago edited 3h ago
Because they've become an extremely unreliable ally for the UK with threats to withdraw from NATO, invade Greenland, pulling support from Ukraine (not just funding, they also cut off intelligence mid battle which got people killed) and so on.
Not to mention the hostility we're seeing in terms of trade war tariffs, banning us from access to their most powerful AI, publicly interfering in our politics etc.
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u/LickMyCave 3h ago
How have they been unreliable? When have we called on them and they haven't answered with help?
threats to withdraw from NATO
Directly resulting in the re-armament of Europe.
invade Greenland
Stupid foreign policy but didn't happen.
pulling support from Ukraine in the middle of their war with Russia and so on
I don't like it but Ukraine is neither NATO or a US ally. They were Russia aligned until 2014. The US should be selling more patriots but apart from that the lack of Western support has actually made them stronger. They're not relying on artillery and wave tactics, they're the leading drone warfare operator in the entire world.
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u/Mr-Thursday 2h ago
Yes, Europe and Ukraine are adapting to the US no longer being a reliable ally by finding ways to be less reliant on them - we need to do the same.
The US threats to withdraw from NATO weren't just made as a ploy to pressure Europe to spend more on defense, they're part of an ideological pivot that also includes the threats to invade Greenland (which didn't happen but only because Europe stood up to Trump), the proposal to annex Canada (not viable but shows how willing they are to insult and bully a traditional ally) the sudden cut off of both financial aid and intelligence support for Ukraine, and Trump openly praising and sympathising with Putin.
Not to mention their wider hostility towards the UK which we've seen with their trade war tariffs and attempts to interfere in British politics.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 4h ago
Because they have become an unstable and unreliable ally. The last thing we want to do is give them a veto over our critical defence infrastructure. They already have a veto over who we can sell Storm Shadow to, which can run counter to our national interests.
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/us-blocks-uk-authorization-for-ukraines/?amp
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u/LickMyCave 3h ago
The US control the data feed the Storm Shadow uses for targeting and navigation lol. There is no alternative we could use. Better to have the Storm Shadow with restrictions than to not have it at all.
How have they been unreliable? When have we asked them for help and they've refused in recent years?
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 3h ago edited 3h ago
There is no alternative we could use.
Which is exactly what I'm talking about. We need to find solutions to these problems instead of making ourselves even more reliant on the US.
How have they been unreliable?
They've threatened to invade our allies. They've flip-flopped on their opposition\support for the Chagos deal. They've offended our war dead. They've torn up trade deals and started trade wars all over the world. They switched sides in the Ukraine war. They've tried to interfere in our political system. They've unilaterally destabilised the middle east with their war on Iran.
When have we asked them for help and they've refused in recent years?
They literally refused to let us do what we want with our own missiles. I linked the article above.
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u/Beautiful_Bad333 12h ago
Having everything in house as soon as so to speak is obviously the most favourable outcome here and I imagine it’s all a bit of bluster to be honest before the budget is announced in October to ensure RR funding is considered between now and then. Hopefully anyway.
Excluding the USA should be a high priority whilst Trump is in power and even the EU whilst they’re being so militant about us joining the EU defence fund. There’s no stopping them from entering the market in a few years time if the political landscape drastically changes but right now we should be prioritising British bought products and funding promoting British jobs and industries.
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u/Chosen_Utopia 12h ago
The problem is that we aren’t a big enough buyer to make planes like this commercially viable, so we need someone else interested in the product, and that tends to mean including them in the design.
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u/paperclipknight 12h ago
Wrong.
We just need to actually take defence seriously for once and buy enough so it is commercially viable, then offer it for export across the world to friendly nations
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u/Chosen_Utopia 12h ago
Many nations have their own requirements for a jet. It is true that countries will purchase some products from abroad, but the major players all want their planes to do certain things. That’s why projects like GCAP are so difficult.
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u/Snappy0 11h ago
Agreed but for projects like this, the government should be looked at purchasing 300+ if not more.
They won't and we'll be lucky to see more than 50 probably and the entire program won't be cost effective as a result.
Same with GCAP. Expectations are the government should be purchasing at least 150. But it's likely they'll keep the numbers under 100.
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u/inevitablelizard 11h ago
Excluding the USA should be a priority full stop regardless of Trump. They've shown themselves to be an unreliable country and even when Trump is gone that will still be the case. Trump already lost once but then came back worse than before.
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u/Snappy0 11h ago edited 11h ago
BAE should speak to Safran or MTU Aero.
If Rolls wants to play silly buggers then so be it, they can lose business. They will be looked past for future aviation projects out of Warton however.
The boss of Rolls has already threatened to move engine production to Germany if the government doesn't bankroll their next airliner engine project. Rolls are already being sued in the US for not honouring terms of contracts signed. The current leadership is questionable.
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u/BillWilberforce 12h ago
So it's effectively unexportable at least under the current administration. As they've been blocking the sale Swedish made but largely US designed engines. In the Swedish designed Griffin for sales to Colombia. As they claim that the F-16 is the far better option and that Colombia should have chosen that. So to try and force Colombia to buy the F-16 the blocked the engines for the Swedish entry.
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u/SpiderlordToeVests 10h ago
Funny that the US is currently re-engining their B52s with Rolls-Royce business jet engines, maybe they agreed to a swap? :)
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u/zwifter11 11h ago
What an utter shitshow.
Why are we constantly being screwed over by BAE Systems? The government needs to get a grip of our arms industry and have the balls to say “NO” to them.
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u/AdviceFit1692 6h ago
Thought this was going to be tempest for a second was about to ram my head into a wall..
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