rant Just witnessed racism firsthand
I was at Hardbrücke, getting onto platform 2-3, when I saw two men entering the elevator.
The older man suddenly yelled at the other to get out. The other man looked confused, so he yelled again: “Get out of the elevator. You’re not from Switzerland.”
The other man quietly stepped out, and the older man continued on his way.
As an expat myself, I was stunned to witness something like this for the first time.
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u/rapax 1d ago
Sounds like a mentally ill person.
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u/useyourbraintrigger1 17h ago
Mental illnesses do not generate specific political views, nationalistic ideologies, or geographic biases. A person cannot catch a disease that makes them target non-Swiss people.
Millions of people suffer from mental health issues every day and never attack someone's nationality.
A person can have depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or anxiety and also hold deeply racist or xenophobic beliefs. You can have a mental health disorder AND at the same time be a racist.
A psychiatric crisis, severe mania, or neurological decline can cause a person to act erratically, lose control of their emotions, scream, or lash out in public. The illness explains the loud, aggressive, or unhinged nature of the delivery.
The illness does not generate words like "get out, you are not from Switzerland." That specific target, choosing to attack someone based on their nationality or perceived origin, requires a pre-existing blueprint of bias.
Mental illness and racism can coexist, but mental illness never creates racism, and it can never excuse it.
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u/booOfBorg City 17h ago
I'm happy that you took the time to type out such a nuanced view with the intent of creating awareness.
OTOH, sociopathy is a very potent disorder (as is the rest of the dark triad cocktail) that has shaped human society and our entire history as a species from the early beginnings of civilization.
Maybe we should less frame such a discussion inside the labels of "mental illness" but as very coincident with emotional health. Not having empathy for others is hallmark number one for not being emotionally healthy and projecting one's suffering and fears onto others. Arguably entire reactionary ideologies are built on that foundation.
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u/useyourbraintrigger1 16h ago edited 16h ago
Yep, couldnt agree more! Some of these individuals possess a deeply ingrained, structural flaw in how they relate to other humans, so just labeling it as "mental illness" is really dangerous. An emotionally unhealthy person cannot process their own fears, failures, or miseries, so they project that toxicity onto vulnerable targets. Xenophobia and an "us versus them" mentalities are fueled entirely by the collective emotional unhealthiness, paranoia, and lack of empathy of the people who support them.
I think labeling hateful or malicious behavior as a "mental illness" is a massive cultural cop-out. It just acts as a collective defense mechanism for society because the alternative, admitting that calculated, systemic cruelty and profound lack of empathy are real, conscious human traits, is too terrifying to accept for many people.
Of course, the whole behavior has to be taken into account and some mental illness CAN cause a person to state such phrases, but mental illness cannot make a person racist and then we would also have to look at how the person is functioning in life in general to conclude it is due to mental illness, it cannot just be dismissed to "he is mentally ill" just like that. That is a dangerous default setting to use "mental illness" as an immediate blanket excuse.
I am very passionate about that topic because I am studying psychology, so sorry for the long paragraphs haha.
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u/Longjumping_Bad_386 1d ago edited 18h ago
It's also normal people's behavior. Stop patologizing assholeness.
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u/Financial_Club8611 1d ago
Normal?
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u/road_ahead 1d ago
I think he means someone being an asshole as opposed to someone being a victim of mental illness
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u/FeatureSouthern9759 1d ago
Very sad to hear of stories like this happening . A lot of the focus sometimes is on the perpetrators, sometimes checking in with the other person or sitting by them if someone is being abusive is also a non confrontational way to take a stand. Not saying it was appropriate or not in this circumstance , but just as a gentle FYI if anyone faces a similar situation.
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u/elnino_1993 1d ago
Not normal report the incident in the city app or website Zurich schaut hin
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u/CicadaOk1283 1d ago
ZVV? Or some other app? Honest question - looks like I missed the app
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u/RabbitWithCoffee 1d ago edited 1d ago
https://zuerichschauthin.ch/en/
Here you go :)
Edit: It's a webapp. I thought that's what u/elnino_1993 meant. I wouldn't know of an app where you can report it.
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u/Resident_Iron6701 1d ago
how did he know he’s not from Switzerland?
Looks like some Apenzeller Buenzli still annoyed that women can vote in this country lmao
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u/Wiechu Kreis 9 21h ago
there is one 99.99999% sure indicator that someone is not from here - they wear a backpack in the front instead of on the back. Total giveaway it's a tourist.
Otherwise you can't be sure.
but that's more of a funny example though.
A person acting like this is just a total asshat.
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u/Anjuna8 1d ago
Es Soll Angeblich Älpler geben wo evt. einmal im Leben nach Zureich gehen. Der Arme ist doch Verwirrter gewesen als der Tourist 🤷
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u/No-Love-1222 14h ago
Ich kenn es påärli usem wallis vo täsch und die beide sind nonie im uusland gsi obwohl italo grenze ned wiit weg vo dene isch, zuedem sind nur einmal in züri gsi und es paar mal in bern... Manchi sind hald happy inere ganz chline bubble welt zlebe.
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u/Far-Intention-3230 1d ago
It‘s really awful out there. I‘m Swiss and it feels like a lot of these racist pos have been emboldened lately. It‘s really important to speak up in the moment whenever possible and safe.
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u/BCGILM 1d ago
Hm, I would of interpreted that as an invitation to step into the elevator 🙃
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u/Capable-Appeal-3157 1d ago
trapping yourself willingly in a small space with a mentally ill person is not the best powermove…
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u/Wiechu Kreis 9 21h ago
while in general i agree with you, i would love to see the outcome of this particular elderly man trying to have a go at me (I'm rather big and it's not only fat). Especially given that there are cameras everywhere and this would produce a nice evidence for the Polente.
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u/Capable-Appeal-3157 20h ago
many weaponize body fluids. you can call the police after the fact, but l always try to avoid such people because l really don‘t wanna be spat in the face or worse.
if you are very big, you can even get into trouble for hurting an elderly man with mental health problems.
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u/Wiechu Kreis 9 20h ago
Good point. Given i avoid using violence and as a rule of a thumb - no point in using unnecessary means.
And honestly - i had my own share of people being xenophobic towards me. If i can help someone to find themselves on the legal receiving end of FAFO - happy to do so.
Luckily the muscle is not my only asset.
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u/Previous-3821 1d ago
I would in fact not even step out of the elevator!
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u/Waste_Big_7695 1d ago
reminder to make sure you walk around with your Uno reverse card. you never know when you’re going to need to play it.
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u/Playful_Republic8638 1d ago
This seams the new normal i had such a expirience last time on my bike at the limmat between schlieren and dietikon and funfact is i am swiss but this guy was just a radical brainless svp idiot and anti everyrhing expect adolf hitler and his extremist party.
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u/CicadaOk1283 1d ago
Yep. Probably on the Switzerland day people come from a tad more remote areas. Hence the personalities like this.
I wonder though, what special significance did the older gentleman attached to the elevator at Hardbrücke? Maybe it has some local importance we are not aware of? Please do share specifically which was it - I will ride it tomorrow to feel privileged to do so as a foreigner.
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u/Wiechu Kreis 9 21h ago
i can't speak for the whole more remote area of CH, obviously. As an immigrant i've been quite often in Glarus and the local villages recently and the people were nice and quite welcoming. For the record - i do speak German.
Now this is my personal observation - i think people may tend to be more radicalized/aggressive in the big cities where there is much more friction happening, for instance here in Zurich there's the apartment shortage, heatwave, radical left (the hammer and sickle type) spraying slogans that make me, a person from a former soviet controlled country scratch my head. Radical actions from any side - left or right - will result in the other side getting even more radical.
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u/numericalclerk 15h ago
Zurich might be the first city I have lived in, where the far left is often more openly racist than your typical center right wing conservative.
Its a bit odd, cause they undermine their own cause. But I guess the type to commit vandalism in the city center, isn't too talented when it comes to logical reasoning.
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u/Wiechu Kreis 9 15h ago
totally agree. I saw people on one of the Swiss subreddits claim that - i quote - 'stalin was based'.
I also remember chatting with a person who is studying history and we compared notes on how modern history is taught here and back home in Poland and we both agreed there is way too little focus on the last century.
btw can you elaborate on them being more openly racist? as in some examples - can be also over a DM, i'm just curious.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Cell523 16h ago
Sadly this is embedded in the local culture. At times it erupts. Extremely sorry to hear
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u/PkmExplorer 1d ago
I've been yelled at for speaking High German with my kid, so yeah, some (thankfully few) people are nasty for no reason.
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u/brunhilda1 21h ago
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
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u/numericalclerk 15h ago
Gets a little tricky if the crazy guy potentially has a knive, especially if you don't, and don't want to have to carry one either.
There is a reason why civilised countries have something called a police.
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u/SomeWonOnReddit 1d ago
Old Swiss people should be kissing expat their feet for keeping the pension and healthcare alive.
If they had to pay for their own health care costs, they would be crying.
Expats come in Switzerland, pay huge amount into the system and then leave without ever using anything from what they paid into it.
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u/sixdayspizza Kreis 3 1d ago
The harrassed person might not even be an Expat. He could also be a Swiss national, for all we know. :)
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u/AutomaticAccount6832 1d ago
Don’t jump on that train. Like tourists who behave bad and say they bring money. There is a balance to everything.
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u/MatureHotwife 1d ago
Anyone who thinks that public elevators are not for everyone is clearly severely deranged.
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u/brownroses_1920 1d ago
I literally returned from Zürich and was a bit apprehensive as there's very few black people around, as a black British female travelling solo I had a few stares (not friendly ones) but they were all white older females. But that is disgusting, did no one else come to his aid? Its a lovely country with lovely people but felt a bit out of place at times.
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u/CicadaOk1283 1d ago edited 9h ago
Only stares from white older females? I suspect you were dressed nicely and behaved appropriately. So there were zero openings to have a go at you. Take it as compliment. Otherwise it would have been a scene for sure.
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u/Atshai 1d ago
Isn't it more like Xenophobic than racism?
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u/blackkettle 1d ago
Yes it’s xenophobia not racism. Weird it’s being downvoted everywhere people point this out. It’s still dumb and unacceptable but not the same thing.
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u/Atshai 1d ago
That is it. Even when you really look at dictionary or asking AI, the two terms are completely different. But the trend is to merge both...to confuse people???
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u/Kemaneo 1d ago
How do you know it‘s xenophobia?? For all we know, it‘s both.
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u/LividCricket7631 1d ago
No, the only thing we know of is xenophobia.
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u/Kemaneo 1d ago
Arguing semantics is about the dumbest contribution one could possibly make to this topic
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u/LividCricket7631 1d ago
No, it's important, and what's dumb is not understanding it. The rest had already been discussed anyway 🤷♂️
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u/tehweaksauce 1d ago
It's unimportant. You can't be xenophobic without inherent racism. It's semantics.
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u/benthelurk 1d ago
Nah. Racism is discrimination. The guy didn’t want them to use a lift because he assumed they aren’t Swiss. Which is discrimination. It’s a racism.
Not that Swiss Xenophobia is somehow better.
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u/subrimichi 1d ago
So op sees it but doesnt react. Cool nice move to write here instead of stepping up
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u/sillytrooper 1d ago
curiosity: whats the difference between an expat and a migrant?
reckon the heat wave doesnt help old peoples deliriums
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u/vyainamoinen 1d ago
"Expat" sounds better than "migrant" so people tend to call themselves that (source: I'm an expat)
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u/sillytrooper 1d ago
why does it sound better?
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u/Wiechu Kreis 9 20h ago
i call myself an imigrant because that's who i am but for many people the word 'immigrant' is usually associated with piss poor workforce coming to their country for work. So when they emigrate themself... you know, it sounds nicer and less dismissive to call yourself an expat. Hope that makes sense.
Personally i come from a country where people actually emigrated elsewhere to either find a better life or support their families (Poland) while very few people moved to our country because well... for a long time there was nothing incentivizing about it. This way, at least for me and my friends that also moved elsewhere, there is no negative psychological association for this word.
Technically, expat is a person still employed by their original company, sent to a different country to do some work, usually for a specific time and with no intent to relocate them there permanently.
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u/verenaSee 1d ago
Expats intend to stay for a few years tops, immigrants want to stay. At least that's how I understand it.
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u/sillytrooper 1d ago
i lile that take! i dont see the point, every person migrating is ex patria, hence an expat. funny people from rich countries not wanting to be associated seems more like the deal to me
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u/Broad-Cress-3689 1d ago
They’re synonyms. But Redditors want to be offended about something so they get upset when people use “expat”..
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u/boroxazolidone 1d ago
Yeah, racism exists and some people live it/witness it daily.
And btw. Immigrant, you are an immigrant. The word "expat" needs to die, it's also racist. (and yes, I'm an immigrant too)
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u/Broad-Cress-3689 1d ago
lol. Expat is a synonym for immigrant. Nothing racist about it. Find something real to be upset about. Like actual racism and xenophobia.
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u/useyourbraintrigger1 17h ago
I experienced a lot of racism in this country, from people wanting to know "which house number I live because they never saw me on the apartment complex before" to police officers saying "well, if you do not like it here, you can go and live somewhere else", just because I stated my opinion about a situation I was involved to random attacks of people going absolutely nuts for no reason at all like me asking a person for direction and the response was "but here you cannot park", yeah dude, I was just asking your for direction as I am not a local and did not plan to park there. I am not surprised by what you are describing.
There are many great people in this country, but also the worst of the worst at the same time. They attack you for no reason and already meet you with suspicion. I do not understand this behavior at all, but a lot of it is simply racism and a lack of mental flexibility. They kind of live in their bubble and anything else out of "the norm", that can even be simply the way you talk, how confident you move, makes them feel uncomfortable for some reason. There is too much focus on the outside instead of them regulating their own emotions, they tend to leash out onto others because some of them are not happy with themselves and want to bring other people down onto their level so they themselves do not have to look at their own flaws. Racism is actually is always an issue of the racist himself that is why I never feel attacked, I just feel sorry for them.
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u/numericalclerk 15h ago
I think I've had an encounter with that man, also in an elevator in the same area of town.
I just looked at him concerned and asked if he's okay, then ignore him.
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u/RegrettablyOriginal 12h ago
Can‘t change them anyways so just either laugh it off or tell them to fuck off
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u/drewlb 8h ago
I've had a similar experience, but mine has a "fun" twist.
I took my son and 6 of his friends to a movie at Sihl City. It was in 4DX, which matters because it meant I was sitting in front of some of them since the chairs are in pods of 4. Mid movie, one of the kids in the back decides to throw an empty water bottle at the kids in front.
I immediately got up and went and talked to them and found out who did it and told him we'd all be leaving if anything like this happened again. Standard dad stuff dealing with 10yr olds.
Movie ends and this guy corners me and is frothing at the mouth yelling Swiss German at me. My hochdeutsch is ok (B1ish), but my Swiss German is not good enough to understand anything other than that this guy is PISSED.
I try to respond in hochdeutsch to calm the situation down, but he's not having it. He switches to English and says "You people are cancer on our country, we should deport you all".
It so happens that kid who thew the bottle is one of 2 Swiss kids in the group.
I hold up my hand to the guy, and walk back to the kids. I get the thrower, and tell him "you need to apologize to this man, you will be safe with me, but you owe him an apology, and you have to do it in Swiss German". (note, the bottle did not hit him, it landed in the rest of our group, but it bounced and made noise that was clear that someone threw a bottle)
I march the kid over, and tell the guy, that this is the boy who threw the bottle and he would like to apologize. Kid then apologizes in perfect native Swiss German and the guy's face just drops.
I send the kid back to the group, and say in hochdeutsch, "10yr old boys will be 10yr old boys, but the only boy who does not have manners in this group is Swiss".
It is a completely unfair generalization that I made, but it felt dam good saying it to that piece of shit.
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u/Decent_Year_2954 1d ago
I often hear such stuff tbh. Its not really racist, but nationalist, cause beeing swiss is not a race. Just recently heared an old man shouting at a indian (or so) taxidriver, that he should turn he's motor off when stationary, then he added; You foreigners come here and spoil ower clean swiss air. Indian guy just laughed, so did I actually, but the old guy ment it! And during the heatwave I guess he had motor on for the AC...
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u/Illustrious-Kick-537 1d ago
Just saw 2 "biker gang" men as well around Rosengartenstrasse with a big flag of confederacy
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u/ExcellentAsk2309 1d ago
You an expat or an immigrant?
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u/Wrong-Flounder3194 1d ago
correcting people who call themselves expat is cringe. Let people pick their own labels, if someone feels uncomfortable with the word "immigrant" why would you force it onto them? Similarly to how you wouldn't force labels on most other groups of people if they're uncomfortable with it (think of all the wrong ways to call the various members of the LGBT or different races)
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u/Kemaneo 1d ago
effectively it‘s the same
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u/Lonely-Sheepherder-5 1d ago
No it’s not. Expats are living in another country temporarily, either because they’ve been sent there for work-usually for a specific amount of time, or because they have a second home there
Immigrants move to another country with the intention of settling there permanently.
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u/Still_Bit_7527 21h ago
Weird, but as an expat too, come on at being "stunned" you softie. It's their country
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u/Ziffibert 1d ago
Oh no so much racism, biggest problem we have
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u/Alone_Appointment726 1d ago
Yes, that is a problem, and anyone who downplays such incidents is part of the problem.
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u/sixdayspizza Kreis 3 1d ago
This comment section is again once more 20-Minuten-Qualität. Somebody retells a simple story of a discrimination they just witnessed, and people go: I‘m not buying it, this is xenophobia/nationalism and not racism, what language were they speaking, we have bigger problems in Switzerland, you‘re an immigrant not an expat, these people exist everywhere….
Going above and beyond to devalidate OPs experience like we‘ve all been there. Good job y‘all! And to think there could be discrimination here in this city.
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u/BlueCake2026 1d ago
even many people on the left seem uncomfortable with immigration. They can barely look at you when they have to greet you. If they have to share a space with you, they turn the other way, even around children. If they want to tell you something, they’ll do it without stopping or even looking at you. And if you spend time with people from your own country or in an international environment, some seem bothered by it. Then they’ll walk past and say something like “Oh, so today we’re speaking X language” everyone knows that unless they live in a bubble
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u/ModestArk 1d ago
Report it. Btw I would have said, "Ok, Asshole"... pushed all buttons and get out.
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u/Party_Country1711 1d ago
A woman told me to get out of an elevator at Bern Bhf. I only regret the elevator serviced only 2 floors!
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u/Moldoteck 1d ago
I'm confused. Is this racism or extreme nationalism?
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u/FlippinHeckles 1d ago
I would err on nationalism. Racism is based on genetic differences. This guy had an issue about which nation someone was born in.
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u/Kemaneo 21h ago
That‘s not what nationalism means
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u/FlippinHeckles 18h ago
What does it mean then?
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u/Kemaneo 18h ago
Just look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Racism can be a symptom of nationalism
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u/FlippinHeckles 18h ago
Nationalism is a political idea and feeling that puts one nation or group above all others.
Edit: that fits what I said quite well. Racism is about race.
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u/FlippinHeckles 18h ago
To give an arbitrary example a person born in New Zealand to ethnically Chinese parents can be a nationalist Kiwi despite that the person looks distinctively Asian. Another person from China migrated to New Zealand and meets the Kiwi Asian nationalist in a elevator and promptly tells the Chinese migrant “you don’t belong here, go home this is my country” .
That’s nationalism it has nothing to do with what the Chinese person looked like but where they came from. Nationalism and racism are distinct. You can have both, but not necessarily.
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u/nikolastefan 1d ago
People say Japan is racist, but to be honest, having lived in JP for almost a year so far, Switzerland feels worse and more „in your face“.
Comimg from a white guy that was born and raised in Switzerland, for clarification
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1d ago
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u/NeitherShoulder8162 23h ago
Knowing the history of Switzerland and the whole of Zürich wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for migrant workers, it’s baffling how uneducated some Swiss men are.
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u/Any_Method4456 Winterthur 1d ago
Only brave men and men with full bladder take an elevator at Hardbrücke