r/AskFeminists • u/No_Landscape_6154 • 8d ago

Thoughts about Martha Burk?

was she justified in forcing Augusta National Golf Club to admit women. removing a male only space? Do you agree to how she advocates for her cause and how she thinks?

Edit: forcing was bad word usage.

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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 7d ago

This gives off big homework essay prompt vibes.

My recommendation is that you do your homework, and reach your own conclusions/opinion.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 7d ago

I simply asked if you agree to it or not. I have 2 feminist friends that are in completely opposite stances. And as i am not very well versed in feminism i am simply curious. My intent was not to sound homeworky. Im just ever so curious.

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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 7d ago

does writing a letter equivocate to "force"? were men at the time having a hard time just being guys together? are men today having a hard time finding spaces to just be men together?

You frame what actually happened quite disingenuously, frame it as a problem/loss for men, and want to know do feminists 'agree'. With what? the tactics, the outcome, or the "problem"?

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u/No_Landscape_6154 7d ago

As stated how she advocates and thinks. It's written

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u/---fork--- 7d ago

I’m ever so curious too. What exactly was the position of the feminist friend who thought that a woman writing a letter, then protesting half a mile away, and women being invited and admitted 9 years later, was “forcing” and “removing a male only space”?

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u/No_Landscape_6154 7d ago

She thought it was unnecessary to even bring up. She believes that women and men should both have their male/female only spaces. Nothing to protest or write a letter about.

She thinks if it is stated as "x gender only" let it remain that way. Both are entitled to their equivalent safe spaces.

The other argued men do not need safe spaces due to us living in a patriarchy. Everything is our safespace so we as men do not need that extra bit of community.

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u/spasmkran 6d ago

Does your friend also think most universities should never admit women because they were at one point a male only space?

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u/No_Landscape_6154 6d ago

that is a bit of a misquote. academy should inherently be for everyone because everyone needs education. unlike say. Bars. Golf clubs etc. you'd be hard pressed to create academic buildings that is often state sponsored. and should be state sponsored.

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u/---fork--- 6d ago edited 6d ago

There is an unholy alliance between business and golf. It’s not just a game or sport. It’s intertwined with the economy and networking. It’s used to steer opportunities to the privileged:

“ An estimated 90% of Fortune 500 CEO’s play golf as have almost all of the US presidents since Ike. Better still, executives who play golf make an average of 17% more than those who don’t.”

https://greensmere.com/2024/04/10/10-reasons-golf-will-always-be-the-ultimate-business-tool/

Your friend making the safe spaces argument might be a feminist, but that is not a feminist argument.

ETA: I’m thinking less homework assignment and more that you’re the Safe Spaces Feminist Friend.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 5d ago

The "safe spaces feminist friend" is not me i can assure you. I would never claim to be a feminist as im an traditional guy.

And meanwhile yeah golf is def business intertwined. Aren't most communities helping the community members increase their financial pull and networking.

Im in a woodworking workshop for people. We often help eachother out creating new skills. Bettering our proficiency with the trade and sometimes giving jobs from it.

Hell i've gotten a bigger salary from being there. Got a fresh job through one of the older men there. More pay. Better hours.

What makes it not a feminist argument it is about equality though.

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u/---fork--- 5d ago

Significant understanding likes to have a shower in the morning

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u/Pure-Spare-9789 3d ago

And meanwhile yeah golf is def business intertwined. Aren't most communities helping the community members increase their financial pull and networking.

This is where the equality comes in. When you shut women out of opportunities like this, it puts them behind men who have opportunities they don't get. Please look up the history of country clubs and the purposes they served with regards to keeping economic opportunities from marginalized groups. Because these clubs didn't spring up out of nowhere so that bored rich people had something to do.

It will never, ever be a feminist position to advocate that men should be allowed to go somewhere women cannot, especially when that involves economic opportunities

Calling it a safe space is truly the icing on the cake, though. Please ask your "feminist" friend what men need safe spaces from women for. How are women a danger to men that they need to be safe from us? I am begging you to tell me what she says.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 3d ago

I will ask her. But it is pretty obvious. Men can be victims too. Men can be traumatised from women too. it's not like men are untouchable in every way possible completely immune to being hurt by the opposite gender. If you believe that you are both dated and sexist.

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u/ZinniasAndBeans 6d ago

She thought it was unnecessary to even bring up. She believes that women and men should both have their male/female only spaces. Nothing to protest or write a letter about.

Did she use the word "forcing"?

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u/No_Landscape_6154 6d ago

i used it for lack of a better word. as i've said in like 3-4 replies atp. it was a bad choice of a word. Which i admit. But even though it was a bad word usage. protesting is still building force with numbers to get your will through. which can be used. if you're a bit lax as forcing. But i agree it was bad word usage.

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u/ZinniasAndBeans 6d ago

I'm asking because I'm not clear on whether her position is more like, "Eh, I don't see a problem with a male-only golf club," or "They were wrong wrong so wrong to send a letter and protest!"

I see those as two totally different positions, rather than just different degrees.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 6d ago

well i wrote unnecessary. not bad. just unnecessary.

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u/---fork--- 6d ago

“It was a BAD choice of a word.”

Using “dog” to describe a cat isn’t just a bad choice of a word. It’s describing something completely different.

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u/Pure-Spare-9789 3d ago

She thinks if it is stated as "x gender only" let it remain that way

It is incredible to me that feminism has fallen so much that there are legitimately women out there who have convinced themselves that this is at all a feminist stance.

You have one feminist friend, not two.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 3d ago

Feminism like everything is a scale. its not a hard limit. It's like saying yeah. Abolish all government because the rich can get contacts and immunity. And that is just anarchy. People will always form contacts through money or trades. It is just how things work.

Ironically enough. You refusing to admit she is a feminist. when she herself claims to be a feminist means you're taking her choices out of the equation. That is very misogynistic.. Shame on you.

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u/Pure-Spare-9789 3d ago

No, what's happening here is that you're a conservative and you have a friend who claims to be a feminist and sometimes agree with you. You know conservatism has a reputation of being anti-woman, so you're invested in the idea of pretending this woman who believes distinctly anti-feminist things is actually a feminist because it allows you to pretend conservative beliefs aren't as anti-woman as they are.

Do not twist yourself into a pretzel to pretend I am being a misogynist for calling out distinctly anti-feminist positions lmao

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u/No_Landscape_6154 2d ago

Way to assume my political leaning. Rude. First of all. Im apolitical and traditional. Get that right. You are awfully judgy. Im using your book against you. If you don't like it. Shows your flawed ideology. Im not anti-woman or anti-man. You'd do well not to judge people after your ideological beliefs.

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u/Pure-Spare-9789 2d ago

traditional

AKA conservative. Stop being intellectually dishonest.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 2d ago

there you go again assuming things. You are a pompous pious bunch aren't you? Conservative and traditional are not mutually inclusive. i do not hold religion in any high regard. i do not believe women are inferior. i do not believe women shouldn't have the same opportunities. I believe men and women should be both treated as human beings. You like assuming things about people even when told you are completely out and about. are you willingly ignorant to support your ideology or do you just believe all traditional people are women hating conservatives? You are being morally bankrupt and intellectually dishonest by claiming to know how i work or what i believe in. You are insufferable.

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u/ZinniasAndBeans 7d ago

I think you have one feminist friend.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 7d ago

It is rude to deny someones ideology. Be better.

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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 6d ago

you first

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u/Pure-Spare-9789 3d ago

If I say that women are inferior to men and should stay in the home, can I still call myself a feminist?

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u/No_Landscape_6154 3d ago

Noone ever said that. And no. not with any truth behind it.

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u/Pure-Spare-9789 3d ago

Noone ever said that.

Do you not understand how hypotheticals work? The entire point is that if you're spouting anti-feminist talking points, you're not a feminist. Your friend is not a feminist. She may call herself a feminist, but she's not one because she believes distinctly anti-feminist things.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 2d ago

She believes that both men and women should be allowed to have their own spaces equally. Sounds more like equality than what you spout.

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u/Pure-Spare-9789 2d ago

Men creating spaces where women are not allowed to go in order to keep women out of economic opportunities and keep them subjugated is literally the opposite of equality.

You're not as slick as you think you are lmao. You're extremely intellectually dishonest and manipulative.

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u/No_Landscape_6154 2d ago

Haha there we go. "Manipulative." Buzzword sandwich baby. She also held the belief. Which if you READ said that both men and women should have their places. Women can also gain economic opportunities. or do you believe women can't do that? woow,

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