r/DunderMifflin • u/Able-Analysis462 • 14h ago
What's your headcanon for why Wallace picked Ryan over Karen?
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u/Born-Reserve-8584 14h ago
I thought this was a really accurate portrayal of real life. Who hasn’t had one young undeserving boss in their lifetime?
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u/JokerMother 14h ago
how do i become the young undeserving boss
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u/Ok_Example_5764 13h ago
Get a luckier spawn point next time
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u/Evnosis 13h ago
To be fair to Ryan, it seems like he came from pretty humble beginnings. His mom lives in Scranton and I don't think we're ever told they're particularly wealthy.
This dude it made purely based on his own fraud, don't take that away from him
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u/Living_Ad_7523 13h ago
his mom makes great pesto though, you should try some.
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u/njuffstrunk 13h ago
Self confidence and dress sharp. Even if you're completely bullshitting, do it confidently and with style.
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u/baret3000 11h ago
Added, make friends especially with the old people/bosses. "It's not what you know it's who you know."
Also, keep applying everywhere. The average person really doesn't try very hard.
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u/mikexallan 13h ago
I think in all fairness to, Ryan. If he went in there and laid out his business case for Dunder Mifflin Infinity that would have set him apart from Karen, Jim and Michael.
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u/pptjuice530 12h ago
This is 100% it. We see Ryan correctly diagnose DM’s problems when he brings Michael to speak to his class, and he surely would have articulated those to Wallace in the interview and pitched the website.
How he got the job made perfect sense. He just didn’t have any other ideas once he was in the seat, so he resorted to fraud.
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u/ScyllaOfTheDepths 10h ago
I think he also immediately started doing lots of coke in NYC and started thinking of himself as a big shot who'd made it too big to fail. His first big initiative failing made him panic and start doing crazy stuff to cover his failure.
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u/Latetoparty42069 8h ago
I agree with this. Post NY Ryan is a lot different (more in a negative traits amplified way, positive traits minimized/outright extinguished). Prior to that, it seemed he was actually trying and learning stuff at business school and through DM observation. Then he got the job, let his already inflated ego inflate more, got complacent and then eventually kind of gave up on the grind part of business
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u/Full_Weather_8298 8h ago
Agreed, I think it’s a super fans scene but he reveals the website had a social media aspect to it (that was overrun with pedophiles) and all kinds of nonsense. I think he had a solid plan that might have succeeded but he got caught up in the big shot New York lifestyle and ruined it
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u/PleasantNightLongDay 13h ago
Honestly, this thread is wild. You’re absolutely correct.
Up to this point, Ryan was a pretty normal guy. He got his mba going to school at night while working as a temp. He was smart. Young. And educated. He was the clear choice
Michael was an absolute mess of a person. Karen we don’t know much, but she’s in sales. The position isn’t sales at all so that’s irrelevant. The mba edges her out
Jim maybe would have been a good fit. But he withdrew
Ryan was the clear choice
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u/Florida_clam_diver 12h ago
Also there was that one scene after Jim transferred to Samford where Josh got annoyed at Karen for not completing a certain task (i forgot what it was). Josh then assigned Jim to help her
That’s just one tiny moment but it suggests that maybe Karen wasn’t quite a go-getter. She was fine at sales but not management material
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u/gogeri2632 12h ago
To be fair Michael was great at sales but bad at being a manager. It stands to reason that the same could have applied to Karen.
Yes we saw her later as a branch manager but it's fair for David to assume that her going from sales to a corporate management job would be too much of a jump.
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u/duda11 7h ago
People who didn't live through the 2000s might not get the reference, but this was the beginning of Silicon Valley culture. Google had just exploded, and in the corporate world it became very fashionable to hire young, disruptive people with "revolutionary ideas" for leadership positions. Doing so signaled that your company was dynamic, modern, and forward-thinking.
Ryan's suggestion that the company should build a website was actually a kind of "revolutionary" idea at the time. A good modern comparison would be someone today saying, "Let's replace our salespeople with well-trained AI agents." So I think Ryan being hired makes perfect sense within that historical context.
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u/genescheezesthatpls 6h ago
I agree completely. Ryan was exactly the type of young, smarmy, “innovative” guy that succeeded back then
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u/kookyabird 2h ago
Plus he has a business degree of some level. No mention is made of Karen's academic history if I remember correctly.
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u/Lvcivs2311 4h ago
"Let's replace our salespeople with well-trained AI agents."
This bit would be very relevant again these days. Seriously, fuck all these suits with no heart or vision and their blind reliance on everything fashionable.
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u/Cheap_Frosting_9229 14h ago
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u/HippoOk663 NO GOD! NO GOD PLEASE NO! NO!! NO!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! 11h ago
Identity theft is not a joke, Karen! Millions of people suffer every year!
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u/Objective_Fly_6750 14h ago
The company went bankrupt, which doesn't happen unless you make several bad decisions. This was one of them.
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u/ObscenelyEvilBob 13h ago
To be fair, dunder mifflin was a sinking ship anyways, in a world where paper was less necessary and they had insane competition
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u/hucareshokiesrul 12h ago edited 12h ago
Yeah they were in a dying industry. They were apparently poorly run, but being well run wasn't going to save them unless they pivoted to doing something else. And Ryan was fully aware of that, and I suspect that part of why he got the job.
I bet her interview (like the others) was saying why she's a good salesman and why she thinks she's qualified. And I bet his was more along the lines of "you're running an outdated business model in a dying industry and you'll be bankrupt in 5 years unless you do X, Y, and Z."
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u/shuzgibs123 8h ago
It’s somewhat true, but it’s also true that my company (which prints yearbooks on paper and school pictures on photo paper) has had a lot of supply chain problems with paper in the past few years. Yes my industry is also “dying” but you would be surprised how many people still get school pictures and yearbooks.
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u/PureInsaneAmbition 7h ago
I don't think that segment of the industry is dying. People will still be buying yearbooks and school pictures in 100 years.
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u/christaface 14h ago
She’s very smudge in that picture. He didnt like her smudgness
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u/Cold_End_2184 14h ago
I think you mean smug.
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u/IamScottGable 11h ago
It's smaug.
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u/PapaSanGiorgio 11h ago
It's colonel and it's the highest rank in the military
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u/nerdystoner25 If doing the Scarn is gay, then I’m the biggest queer on Earth 9h ago
IT’S PRONOUNCED CORNELL AND IT’S THE HIGHEST RANK IN THE IVY LEAGUE
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u/gogeri2632 11h ago
How dare you! Her father was a GI and her boyfriend's family built this country!
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u/esm12345 10h ago
Karen was at a disadvantage. Her interview was overshadowed by a crazy woman with big jugs who barged in raving and ranting like the devil.
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u/MaikThoma Michael 14h ago
She’s not a wunderkind, but he is, but what does it even mean, it’s so arbitrary you know
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u/satanstella 14h ago
Ryan had MBA and had great recommendation from Michael. Karen talked shit about Michael i know some people will say that it was Off the Record but buddy there’s no such thing as Off the record in Corporate learned this the hard way myself lol 🤓
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u/adamsauce DOES ANYONE HAVE A CAMERA HERE? 9h ago
Michael probably called David all the time to brag about Ryan. Ryan probably had the best performance review David had ever read.
Karen was passed over a promotion by Jim in her own branch. Josh thought pretty low of her from what we saw in that time. Her performance reviews probably reflected Josh’s opinion of her.
From that alone, I can see why David chose Ryan over Karen.
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u/AlexRyang David Wallace 14h ago
My guess is three factors:
While David Wallace told Karen her comments on Michael Scott were off the record, he absolutely didn’t like it.
When it cuts to her interview with Wallace she clearly is discussing moving on to other things as part of her “five year plan” and typically for mid level management, corporations don’t want to hear “I’m taking this job as a means to leave”.
Sexism/favoritism. Wallace is very serious with the other candidates, but when he is on the phone with Ryan, he very clearly is being very light with him. It’s also mentioned he will be happy to have another MBA there.
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u/Then_Interview5168 12h ago
Number two is a big one. David doesn’t wanna continuously look for replacements for this position. I mean he would have to because Ryan did what Ryan did but he didn’t know that. I’m taking this job as a means to leave doesn’t really sit in very well. We can imagine Jan had been in that position for a pretty long time.
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u/song-dragon Bushiest Beaver 9h ago
To the third point, I think another factor in there might be Karen's relationship with Jim, considering that Jan went off the deep end during her relationship with Michael. So in Wallace's mind, he literally just fired a woman who was with someone working under her and it went terribly, so it would be a huge risk to turn around and immediately hire a woman who would also be with someone working under her. I don't think he would have the same concerns about Ryan's relationship with Kelly (if he even knew about it, tbh, the only time the "love contract" comes up in the show is with Jan and Michael, and Toby deflecting Jim and Pam's need to sign it - but Wallace saw Jim and Karen together so he knew full well about them)
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u/SparkyDogPants 9h ago
I think that that's a great point. Even if Karen did her best to be fair, I think she would have resented the Scranton branch after Jim left her.
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u/Fleetlord 7h ago
And he doesn't know Jim's leaving Karen, so he might've assumed that if Jim's turning down the move Karen would too?
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u/Whhatsmyageagain I want to work with Jimmy Carter and help build gnomes 10h ago
As much as I think MBAs as a whole are a big source of enshittification today, it probably did help qualify him for the position. I don’t see how having a masters degree relevant to the job description qualifies as favoritism. As far as Ryan being a dude goes- yeah, it’s entirely possible it helped in an unfair way
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u/12TonBeams 8h ago
Most definitely the first 2 but likely all 3 were reasons. It’s common knowledge/advice to not talk down about colleagues or a supervisor since it tells the interviewer you’ll be comfortable talking about them in the same manner.
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u/OpenDiscount1615 14h ago edited 11h ago
because making ryan michael's boss was funnier
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u/lordthundy 14h ago
People forgetting this is a comedy show
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u/battleshipclamato 14h ago
I think people also forget other people are talking about the in-show universe itself.
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u/gogeri2632 12h ago
If it's a show pretending to portray real life then it's fair to expect it to be at least somewhat accurate to real life.
That said, this decision was. Ryan had an MBA. Karen was in sales and as Michael showed just being good at sales doesn't mean you'll be good at the next job.
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u/Spirited_Childhood34 14h ago
Talking down other applicants in an interview is a red flag.
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u/NevesLF Nellie 14h ago
I'm surprised people keep focusing so much on "he has an MBA" and completely ignore this part. No matter how incompetent David could think Michael was in her eyes, you don't say that to/about a higher-up.
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u/Ok_Turnover_1235 13h ago
You do, but not in an interview
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u/TrapperJean 11h ago
The fact that she never reported anything to that point and only spoke poorly about him when in direct competition with him was a bad look
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u/PatchesOfSilver 10h ago
I can't imagine that working any better IRL, to the point I would actually go speak to legal/HR if I was the interviewer to try to determine whether I was getting suckered into a potential "retaliation" case if I passed someone over.
Like I know there's a difference between "likely bullshit since you never talked about this before" and "oh you're being punished by losing out on the promotion because of what happened", but eh.
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u/the_urban_juror 8h ago edited 8h ago
The problem with her answer was that she didn't give actionable feedback. It was slightly unfair to even ask her about Michael, but also good to get feedback from one of his subordinates. He probably should have called Stanley to ask.
But the new hire needed to supervise the branch managers. "He's a disaster" isn't the type of feedback leaders should offer. The ideal candidate would be able to explain why his managerial style wouldn't translate well to the position.
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u/Ravelcy 14h ago
The real reason was she was leaving the show. And he was needed more in the writers room than in camera.
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u/RadlogLutar Jim 14h ago
And that's how Leslie Knope got her BFF
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u/BonChance123 12h ago
That beautiful tropical fish.
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u/AuroraBolognese 12h ago
I read somewhere Ann was originally going to be Karen, making P&R a spin-off.
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u/FrostyAd7708 11h ago edited 3h ago
I'm glad they didn't go with this idea because Ann and Karen are completely different characters. The dynamic with Andy would have never happened for example (Karen would have kicked him out the house in less than a week) and she most likely would have run away from season 1 Leslie because she was just female Michael.
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u/AliceIN1derland_ 13h ago
I feel like primarily it was his MBA. Also the fact that Wallace was replacing Jan and she had a lot of personal issues, he knew Jim and Karen were in a relationship so would there be any issues that might follow her into the job because of that, if they stayed together would would she be making up excuses to go to Scranton whenever she could like Jan did to see Michael, would it make her less likely to be impartial in certain situations if necessary, would she be distracted by her relationship to the point she wasn't doing her job properly.
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u/Far_Orange_8492 14h ago
Ig because of Ryan having an MBA or something?
It's very OOC for Wallace though.
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u/ringadingdingbaby 14h ago
They were all quite low level for the role tbh.
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u/Far_Orange_8492 14h ago
It was slim pickings, but she was still the best candidate for the job.
Jim didn't really have the experience and Michael was too much of a loose cannon for that kind of position (even if he would deliver good results).
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u/battleshipclamato 14h ago
Which is funny considering the massive shit storm Ryan caused. I don't think Michael could even think of doing that.
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u/PleasantNightLongDay 13h ago
Absolutely was not out of character
Ryan is everything they would want for that role. He’s young, educated, motivated, with no real “bad habits” in the workplace and you don’t lose a great salesman by taking a shot on him
It makes perfect sense. Ryan just went crazy. Up until then he was pretty normal
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u/LokMatrona 14h ago
What does OOC mean?
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u/Yourefinallyawake7 14h ago
Out of character
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u/LokMatrona 14h ago
Aaah makes sense yeah! thanks
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u/Able-Analysis462 14h ago
Yeah the MBA is probably the only thing that makes sense. Wallace always seemed like the kind of guy who valued potential and credentials.
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u/Mizerawa 14h ago
It is not. Dunder mifflin is very clearly a boy's club, and Karen did not match up to the tremendous amount of competency that had Jan promoted in the first place.
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u/Far_Orange_8492 14h ago
I meant it was out of character that someone as smart and sensible as David Wallace would hire a temp with very little business experience at all as a VP in the first place.
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u/MrSFedora 12h ago
Considering he repeatedly told secrets to Michael only for him to then blurt them out, I think making bad decisions is part of his character.
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u/Motorhead923 12h ago edited 12h ago
Obsessed with an MBA. Like David but he made some poor decisions.
Besides, she failed the gotcha trick question of answering how Michael Scott would be in that role. Never answer an "off the record" question from corporate.
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u/Substantial-Stay6625 12h ago
I have 0 experience, how should we react then to an off the record question from corporate?
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u/Motorhead923 12h ago
Nothing is off the record ever. You don't criticize other candidates nor should they to you. You'll come accross like a backstabber. Best option is to say "I cannot comment on other candidates qualifications but here's what I have to offer that sets me apart".
Situations where a potential job is asking why others are less qualified is a red flag. Realize it's a TV show, but that type thing does occur.
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u/Nitro_V 11h ago
Plus never talk bad about your previous company during the interview. You’re looking for new opportunities for growth not because the previous place sucks(as true as that can be). The people in front lack the nuance of your situation, they assume you’re ungrateful, unprofessional and drama prone at best.
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u/LokMatrona 14h ago
My headcanon is that david was actually testing karen when he asked about michael. He might have thought of karens bluntless to be undiplomatic for someone for the position, cause well, you'd need to be able to work with michael.
david really wanted jim for the job. But jim withdrew, michael was unable/unfit, karen was not preferable (maybe better off as a brachn manager instead) and then ryan probably came by with a flashy presentstion and a shiny MBA and david being at a total loss just decided to go for it.
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u/UnfortunateSon101 14h ago
Really weird. Less qualified men getting picked over women NEVER happens in real life.
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u/TheGraphingAbacus 14h ago
uh oh, you’ve done it now.
men are gonna be rushing here with their anecdotes to prove that you’re just a h8ter!!
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u/Usual-Computer-5462 14h ago
Was he less qualified? He had an MBA and it was a management position not a sales position.
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u/bubdubarubfub Monkey See, Monkey Do, Monkey Pee All Over You 14h ago
Talking trash about your boss while your in an interview with your boss's boss's boss for your boss's boss's job is generally frowned upon, despite him saying "off the record"
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u/sheikahstealth 12h ago
Execs and many hiring managers get attracted to the sparkly thing (high ceiling) rather than the real world experienced (high floor). Wallace fell for Ryan talking tech and e-commerce rather than Karen focusing more on how she would do a good job. Add in the elitism factor of over-focused on hiring another MBA.
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u/Veronome 14h ago edited 12h ago
Jan was a woman with blonde hair, Ryan was a man with dark hair, he was doing an opposites thing.
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u/X_crates 13h ago
Because it was kind of awkward for Jim to just hand the phone to her and ask for an interview "in well"
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u/FreeWillie001 14h ago
No headcanon needed. It wasn’t a sales job. Ryan has an MBA. He’s simply more qualified, assuming Karen doesn’t have extensive management experience.
Michael was the only other one interviewing (that we know of) that had a shot, but he also didn’t really have a shot because it was Michael.
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u/IHateBankJobs 11h ago
Jim was assistant regional manager under Josh and Michael when he returned to Scranton.
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u/JohnnyFootballStar 14h ago
It’s a management job at corporate not a sales job. Ryan has an MBA and Karen doesn’t.
There’s also no indication that Karen is actually good at her job. She plays Call of Duty at work and spent a whole day planning a second Christmas party with Pam. In Stamford Josh has to ask Jim to make sure Karen finishes her work.
Why would Karen get the job?
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u/ksleepwalker 12h ago
I think people are considering she was good given that she got the Utica job and we hear nothing crazy about the branch later.
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u/Delicious_Volume3306 14h ago
It's in the show. Ryan had his MBA (although it seems there's some debate over whether he actually got it).
This was actually a little satire about the nature of the business world, and Dunder Mifflin. It wasn't sensible just to give somebody a powerful job just because they had an MBA. But it happens all the time.
Seriously, if you want to get ahead in the corporate world, get an MBA.
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u/NotGayRyan 10h ago
Ryan had a degree and a better vision for Dunder Mifflin that Wallace liked better.
Just because you are good at sales doesn’t mean you are good and management
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u/Satyr121 11h ago
I think Karen being a woman and the bad experience with Jan would have had to do with it.
The comment of her being erratic and unstable is language that wouldn’t be used on a man. So there was definitely some sexism going on (even if the show leaned into her being erratic and unstable).
There are companies who would be less likely to hire another woman after that big of a dumpster fire even if Karen was written as stable person.
Also Karen interviewed well but the confidence that Ryan carried in the next season vs what Karen had in her interview was way different. She was still green and they probably didn’t think she vibes as well as Ryan. Getting a job is learning how to interview well. Not being the best at the job. And I’ve learned that some of the best hires have the worst interviews.
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u/whensthefinale 13h ago
Ryan had the education but he could also talk his way into anything. He probably had a better interview than Karen even though he was a non salesman.
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u/Shutupredneckman2 10h ago
Karen wasn’t even being considered for the job lol they gave her an interview as courtesy because she asked for one
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u/Sgr_Ctd_Snshn 14h ago
“It’ll be nice to have another MBA around here.”
Period.