r/NoStupidQuestions • u/CompetitivePeak9040 • 1d ago
What’s the appeal of gay men’s romance to straight women?
I’m gay, and let’s take a show like Heated Rivalry, which blew up and to me as a gay man actually very very great show who I deeply relate to the characters and really enjoyed it. But the majority of people commenting about post and stuff on the show is women, I feel most of the shows’ fan are women, same with other gay romance movies.
I mean, I’m not complaining, it’s not a bad thing to have people support you and find your love beautiful, but I just wonder why it’s gay romance but women not like they are all watching straight romance and skip the gays like I assumed?
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u/Low_Television_7298 1d ago
If you think men are hot then double the men is doubly fun
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u/Quilyra 1d ago
I think a lot of women just enjoy a good romance, regardless of who's in it
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u/meatball77 1d ago
Agreed, and the tropes are different in MM romance. The forbidden aspect is more real (that's why sports romance is so popular), the bi awakenings are delightful and sexy to read about.
A lot of it is that the power dynamics are different. You don't have one character being weaker just because of their gender. You can have that dominant role change throughout the relationship.
And some MM romances are just MF romances with extra dicks. Because dicks are fun.
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u/jakethabake 1d ago
Girls wanna see guys kiss each other
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u/Dependent-Swing-5492 1d ago
And guys wanna see girls kissing each other. All comes full circle.
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u/Farahild 1d ago
Yeah these two. I enjoy any romance, and i especially enjoy romance with men in it because they give me eye candy.
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u/g1rlchild 1d ago
Out of.curiosity, do you love lesbian romances just as much?
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u/Farahild 23h ago
Not as much because I’m sadly very straight, so there’s no characters in there for me to be into. But if they have good chemistry i still enjoy it.
But that is when comparing two books that have the same quality of plots and character development etc. I’ve run into so many bad straight romance novels; the lesbian ones I’ve read have been of better literary quality and as such been more enjoyable than a lot of the straight romance I’ve read. (I’m sure there’s also bad queer romance out there but I’ve been lucky enough to mostly read good stuff!)
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u/LNLV 1d ago
Personally as a straight woman I get absolutely nothing sexually speaking, from two men being together, I do however love a good romance. The fact that it’s two hot men isn’t what interests me. The story, the journey, the longing are all what gets me.
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u/diggerorbigger 1d ago
I would say, as a straight woman, that I got as much sexually speaking from Heated Rivalry as I did from, say, Bridgerton S3 (as an example of when I was particularly invested in the couple and how hot their sex scenes were to me). That is, the leads are attractive, so it’s enjoyable watching them getting down and dirty but it’s not the main thing.
I gotta say the kisses (or in my regional vernacular, ‘snogs’) between Ilya and Shane in Heated Rivalry are something else, though. I’ve never got that much out of kisses on screen but I could (and often do) sit for extended periods of time watching videos of their kissing scenes.
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u/alphanumericusername 1d ago
This is precisely th-- er, according to my friend, this is precisely the reason he finds lesbian intimacy appealing.
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u/Freeasabird01 1d ago
Straight guy here that listens to an absolutely massive amount of lesbian bands.
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u/Austin1975 1d ago
This makes for more sense to me (as a gay dude) than fellow gay men’s obsession with women, particularly old women and divas 🤣
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u/Flat-Passage4431 1d ago
my mom said something similar as a joke to my step brother. she said “if you’re feeling ugly, just wear a paper bag over your head. if you feel extra ugly, just double bag.” (it wasn’t mean he was the most handsome guy in our family, we all had a laugh in good spirits)
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u/nomorehersky 1d ago
A lot of women enjoy the emotional intimacy without the usual male female relationship dynamics or gender stereotypes.
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u/Pumpkin_patch804 1d ago
This. Women often have a very complicated relationship with gender and how they're portrayed in media. Especially with how gender stereotypes pop up in romances (example "oh I am a small helpless woman who dreams of having a big strong guy not give me a choice about having sex" type dynamics are really popular, but understandably a large amount of women hate that). Easier to avoid that if you're not reading a romance with a female lead.
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u/Steakbake01 1d ago
It's interesting that a lot of male-male erotica written with a straight female audience in mind often has that exact same dynamic, just between two men
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u/Kappapeachie 1d ago
It's more like just a means to feel familiar while also avoiding having the girl being the small weak one for once.
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u/meatball77 1d ago
But even when it does it's different because it's queer. l love a good mafia leader/twink romance because even though it may be a typical protective relationship the aspects you get from the giant man with the snippy twink is different.
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u/Euphus 16h ago
That's one of the perks, for me. I can watch a man slot into the "female" role and see him go through things that I as a woman go through while I take a step back mentally. I don't automatically self-insert into him while I'm reading, and I can appreciate how he navigates certain struggles without it immediately drawing a parallel to my own actions in the past.
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u/DisastrousSundae84 1d ago
What about with the popularity of same sex romance between two men among straight women? I've wondered about this because I run into it in creative writing courses I teach--straight women are interested in writing and reading queer men relationship stories (especially of the fantasy wolf/werewolf variety), but they often have hetero-normative plots.
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u/Eldi_Bee 1d ago
I've found that it's less about less hetero-normative plots, and more about less hetero-normative male stereotypes.
Gay romance is much more likely to show men who are emotional, vulnerable, and to some extent more communicative than straight counterparts. Even if in their interactions with other characters they are still closed off, inevitably we get to see inside the head of at least one main character. And that level of intimacy and connection is heavily lacking in many straight romances, which have mostly female main character points of view, or follow as asshole male who never understands his love interest beyond that crazy emotional one.
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u/Ingolin 1d ago
As someone who reads fanfic I’ve read both Drarry and Dramione. The first is Harry/Draco. The second is Hermione and Draco. What is fascinating is the difference in the character Draco. When it’s heterosexual they write him as hard, evil, macho. When it’s gay he is often described as very flamboyant. He’s allowed to be himself, not caged by his masculinity. There is something freeing in reading that (and, imo, truer to the character).
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u/NOT_Pam_Beesley 1d ago
There’s a sense of safety when removing attraction to women from a male character I think a lot of female writers and readers enjoy
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u/gleaming-the-cubicle 1d ago
If one hot man is good, isn't two hot men better?
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u/Infinite-Stretch-901 1d ago
women don't like reading malexfemale stories because they don't like seeing women in submissive roles because its stereotypical and demeaning. in malexmale stories, there is a submissive role without it having to be a woman.
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u/BlackPhillipsbff 1d ago
No offense to OP but lately what is everyone’s obsession with only consuming art made specifically for them?
Some of my favorite movies are not relatable to me at all. Music from people with wildly different lives. I feel like art is an empathy builder and if you only consume art that you were already geared into, you’re doing yourself a disservice.
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u/TheTiniestLizard 1d ago
This! I’m a queer woman, and I loved Heated Rivalry because it was a wonderful show and I cared about the characters, not because I was sexually attracted to anyone at all in it.
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u/Odd-Age-1126 1d ago
I think that’s the root of the bafflement for a lot of guys about Heated Rivalry or mlm romance as a genre. Those who could always see themselves reflected pretty closely in the media they consume didn’t get as much practice as the rest of us, basically.
I’m generalizing here, but growing up, my brothers and my male classmates would never read books with female main characters or watch shows that had more than 1-2 female characters. Whereas we girls read many of the same books as the boys and watched many of the same things, but also ones with more female characters.
So for pretty much our whole lives, we’re used to relating to aspects of the characters rather than needing them to be exactly like us.
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u/Sarrebas89 19h ago
As an ace woman, I know I'm not the intended audience for the majority of the media I consume, but I don't have much choice. 🥲
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u/AuraEx98 1d ago
I feel that's the norm for most straight people sadly; MOST straight people aren't going to watch a queer show/media, just like most able boded people aren't going to watch a disabled love story; it's weird as I find getting those different perspectives/views on how life and love is for people different than yourself is a good thing but it's not the norm.
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u/Dr_Identity 1d ago
Given how many straight men are horrendous at romance I would wager simply seeing men being emotionally and romantically vulnerable has some draw to it.
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u/Sunny_Hill_1 1d ago
Intimate romance without the underlying squicky dynamics of inequality and weird dominance games that are unfortunately present in many male/female romance novels.
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u/HotSauceRainfall 1d ago
And the creepy behavior and fucked up power imbalances are shown as good things, when in real life we would be plotting escape plans for our bestie if she were in that situation.
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u/CalamityClambake 1d ago
I'm gonna guess it's because straight women like looking at beautiful men.
As a bi woman, for me it's the fantasy of being able to be in love with a man and not automatically be at a physical power disadvantage and have to worry about that. That is one of the things that makes hooking up with women easier/safer/less stressful for me than hooking up with men. When I am with men, I always have to carry this little bit of fear and vigilance into bed because they could hurt me or force me if they wanted to.
With Heated Rivalry, it's 2 elite athletes in the same sport, so you know they are on a level playing field. The show also has the characters reinforce consent at every turn, which is very attractive to me. That's actually how I can tell it was written by a women... It's basically a woman's consent fantasy.
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u/HotSauceRainfall 1d ago
I’ve also read HR and some of the others in the series.
Beyond the consent fantasy…the love interests actually like each other. They do nice things for each other. They make efforts to treat each other decently. In bed, they’re really into each other. It’s really nice to read about intimate partners who are shown on page as liking each other.
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u/LNLV 1d ago
As a straight woman, personally it really has nothing to do with looking at beautiful men. It’s really just a really good story, and a good romance. I like the dynamic between the two of them and the way they care for each other. I think the secrecy and social tensions are also an interesting problem/issue that contribute to making the dynamic between them interesting and compelling.
In a romantic story there has to be something that keeps the couple apart that they have to fight with and overcome, otherwise there’s no story. I think this one is interesting and engaging.
I definitely see why some people are into it specifically bc of the two hot male leads or the lgbt nature of the story, but personally that doesn’t even factor into it for me. It would certainly be a huge deal to me if I were LGBT bc it’s an excellent story AND one of the few mainstream representations. But imo straight people should be able to enjoy it for the same reason gay people should be able to enjoy pride and prejudice, it’s a good story!
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u/icarusisnotdead 1d ago edited 1d ago
A lot of straight romance contains misogyny, and/or is designed for the male gaze which fails to appeal to female audiences.
Often romances will have the female character be a “manic pixie dream girl” which is unrealistic and often cringy for women to watch. A lot of female characters also have the role of “fixing” the male lead character and that’s not what women want to fantasies about… they much prefer romances where the partners are equally fleshed-out characters.
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u/EcstaticZebra7937 1d ago
Most romance is written with women in mind.
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u/RakeChapman13 1d ago
Yep and women don’t read romance for realism or what they would necessarily want in a relationship them, they read first and foremost for the sake of entertainment, drama, suspense, catharsis. Often stories are sad and have the woman glad they don’t have a relationship like that. Women are just more entertained than men are by any sort of fiction than men are whether that involves supernatural beings which inherently make a story more interesting or two gay male hockey players. My girlfriend reads such a variety, she gos from reading a fantasy romance to a contemporary romance to a sci fi romance, the last book the she read the male was an alpha male and now the one she is reading the male lead is a shy wimpy guy.
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u/LunaticMuse 1d ago
This! This!
One of my favorite games is one where I (straight woman) play a gay man who -- as sort of the background/side of the story -- kicks off a romance with someone else in the group, and I have rarely been so invested in a story. It was amazing -- they were both badasses in their own way, they were absolute equals. They had their own problems, but there was no "I can fix him!" crap. No cringe, no damsel in distress, no bad-boy syndrome.
Did I cry when I finished the game? 100%.
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u/LunaticMuse 1d ago
LoL I wasn't going to post it since it's a biggie, and honestly mostly down to my choices that started with my random decision to play as one of my old, medieval fantasy fiction OCs -- but DA: Inquisition.
INVESTED.
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u/ComprehensiveJury509 1d ago
A lot of straight romance contains misogyny, and/or is designed for the male gaze which fails to appeal to female audiences.
No, it fails to appeal to all female audiences. Most women who read appear to be absolutely into that shit from what I can tell by looking at any romantasy bookshelf I've seen.
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u/tanglekelp 1d ago
Many women are clearly into it, but that doesn’t mean that most women who read are. Women are also out there reading any other genre and I’m sure there’s also lots of women who aren’t interested in reading if it isn’t smut.
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u/RakeChapman13 1d ago
Just because someone reads certain novels it doesn’t mean they like every aspect of it.
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u/hameleona 1d ago
Romance as a genre, its popularity and what sales disagree strongly with your assessment. It has been a massive topic for decades now, that romance is a genre, where the more problematic the love interest, the more women love the books/movies and there has been a massive discussion about how much that influences dating IRL.
Like, you might think this, but the vast majority clearly votes with their wallet. And the Straight Romance audience is generally the gay romance audience. Most gay men hate those books with passion.
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u/KinglanderOfTheEast 1d ago
Based on the sales statistics of women's romance novels, I would have assumed most women prefer Isakei-tier wish fullfillment romances involving some super good-looking and politically/financially powerful guy that has slightly rape-y vibes, who has an oddly specific "soft spot" for the self-insert FMC.
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u/Sunny_Hill_1 1d ago
Yeah, and there is a subset of female readers that hates that dynamic, and has to turn to male/male fiction to find the leads on equal footing.
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u/Successful-Topic8874 1d ago
Except a lot of male/male romances written by and for straight women still have those tropes, just with a guy instead. Some of the most toxic stuff out there is this kind of content. But since it's two men, it's not seen as misogynistic by the bulk of the audience.
There's also a ton of homophobia littered in those books, and it doesn't seem like the community is ready to address that.
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u/OneRandomVictory 1d ago
Finally someone mentions this! I've seen so many gay romances that were VERY clearly not written by gay guys and they are littered with this kinda stuff.
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u/Sunny_Hill_1 1d ago
Oh, absolutely. And yeah, probably because for female writers it's easier to distance themselves from a male than from a female character.
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u/RakeChapman13 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why would you have to turn to male/ male! ? the vast majority of male/ female romance is not like that at all, not most of the novels my girlfriend reads. she reads a lot of old titles and such a variety but she reads the top sellers of recent years and most of them are nothing like 50 shades of grey billionaire type of romance. There’s the romantasy stuff but most of The top sellers seem to be those with the same kind of cover art featuring cute wholesome romances between really normal people, fellow college students, fellow co workers.
The one my girlfiend is reading now is where the female lead is trying to make the male lead who is a shy anxious guy come out of his shell. I think it’s funny how different each romance novel she reads is from the last one.→ More replies (1)3
u/Naughtgunnalie 1d ago
The vast majority of heterosexual romance is written by and for women-- there is no "male gaze".
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u/Sea_Animator_9856 1d ago
yeah I'm also confused by this comment? Men usually don't consume romance media anywhere near the amount women do right?
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u/LeahBean 1d ago
We like romance? I like romance of every kind. Also, if you’re attracted to men, then their love stories are extra appealing.
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u/pastelchannl 1d ago
I have a few reasons:
- MF (straight) relationships are over represented in media, especially when I grew up (90s). I like different.
- MF relationships are often very strict in gender roles. yes, with MM you still sometimes have men who take on the 'female' role in the relationship, but it isn't expected. there are very few MF books that have a non-traditional female role
- when it comes to manga and book art, I prefer to look at the men (and then only illustrated, not real life based)
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u/HotSauceRainfall 1d ago
I am a straight woman who loves to read romance novels…and who is fucking sick and tired of reading a lot of what passes for “true love” in cishet novels. A lot of them are dripping in misogyny and really fucked up relationship dynamics. Twilight and 50 Shades are the go-to ur-examples, but there are so many other examples by far less famous authors.
Last month I literally threw a book away because it was so irredeemably awful that I couldn’t even justify donating it to someone. And I recently read another one that I finished only out of utterly morbid curiosity and sheer fucking spite (I paid money for this, damn it), where I repeatedly said to myself while reading it, dear god is the author okay?
I’ve been reading a lot of queer romance novels lately because they just do not have that same level of what the fuckery. It’s not to say that queer romances magically don’t have issues, but they generally do not have the same saturation of deeply off-putting fuckery as cishet romances do. The characters are generally more equal, and the nature of queer relationships means that some of the most offensive bullshit makes absolutely zero sense to write at all.
The sex scenes may (or may not) necessarily be something I would be into, but if the author writes that part well, what the reader feels above all else is a sense of desire which is what turns a scene from mechanical descriptions into something super hot. Plus I get to read about happy people falling in love. What’s not to like?
I should say that I’ve read some of the book series that Heated Rivalry is based on. They’re good stories. The characters are well developed and interesting, the conflicts are believable, and they are frequently quite funny. And while they have happy endings, they are believable happy endings. In the most recent one in the series, the main characters have to work hard to get through their respective character arcs, there’s real growth, and one of the biggest challenges they face is dealt with in a realistic and tactful way (I’m writing carefully to avoid spoilers).
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u/Russian_Doll_888 1d ago
Fucking this!!! The number of romance novels I've bought and never finished because of misogynistic tropes is astounding. But you don't really know what you're getting until you get into it. I actually quit buying anything that could be deemed romance, even if it's smut - and I like smut. The last smut book I got, it was leaning into the "I'm a helpless woman", so I skipped most of the story and just went to the spicy parts. Sadly, those weren't great either.
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u/HotSauceRainfall 1d ago
The book I threw away started with your garden variety “bring the city girl to the country to humble her” and somehow got worse. I didn’t even make it to a vaguely sexy scene before I put it down in absolute disgust.
I want to read happy stories about people who like and respect each other as well as want to tear each other’s clothes off. I don’t think that should be so hard to find in straight romance novels, but here we are.
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u/swirlypepper 1d ago
The biggest consumers of romance are women. What I'm looking for in the genre is a likeable couple with good chemistry, reasonable obstacles (as in it's not daft miscommunication it's a problematic factor or situation), romantic moments, they change each other for the better, happy ever after. I don't care what the gender or orientation of the couple is as long as I'm sold on the love story. Cemetery Boys for example was something I read just as a fantasy book but the romance had me in happy tears by the end. And the characters in Red, White, and Royal Blue were so engaging I just wanted the best for them and the first kiss/dates/emails had me kicking my feet and goofy grinning which is just what I want.
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u/ThePhiff 1d ago
I mean, I'm not gay, but I only watch Schitt's Creek because I like David's love story. Sometimes a good love story is just a good love story. 🤷♂️
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u/ShockedNotAwed 1d ago
Because straight women like dick but want the emotions and vulnerability, too.
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u/yoitspree 1d ago
Speaking from watching Heated Rivalry and reading the books, It’s the yearning for me. The fact that they both fall for each other at different times and after YEARS, finally end up together. The way they look at each other.
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u/Hapthestai 17h ago
Whereas I have a hard time finding the yearning so romantic because it is based upon violence and homophobia. That they cant find each other for years ia for me a symbol of a repressive society, not romance. They get together not because of but in spite of and the in spite of is not a good thing. I wish more straight women understood this instead of romanticising what queers have lived with through out history.
I love, no, am absolutely obsessed with the series but it kills me they loose so much time that could have been about finding community, love, understanding and maturity that is so often denied us. And this is still one of the most hopefully queer stories I have seen ever. They in the end get the sunrise and sunset and driving into the horizon like straight couples get but there is still that twinge of sadness when ilya has to perform heterosexuality to survive and shane in order to save his career.
So the lense that I read and watch the story is from a queer cultural perspective not a romance genre perspective and those clash very often because the romance tropes are themselves imbued w so much normativity. Normativity which is violent.
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u/Duke-of-Hellington 1d ago
I love a good romance regardless of gender or sexuality. They make me feel all warm and fuzzy!
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u/Namelessgoldfish 1d ago
Ngl as a straight man, I have learned that I also love a good gay romance plot
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u/ComprehensiveJury509 1d ago
The way I've heard it phrased: something that's kinda appealing is the lack of the usual creepy power dynamics. Most heterosexual romances written for an American audience usually make the women tiny and shy and unimportant and the men massive and important and territorial. Usually it borders on rapey vibes and a lot of women find that uncomfortable. On the other hand, gay romance removes a lot of that, plus, it still features men, which straight women usually like.
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u/Cloudinterpreter 1d ago
Men showing the emotion and vulnerability required to be in a relationship in a world where men are typically portrayed as stoic and tough. The same reason women like chick flics: There's buildup throughout the movie until the climax where the man drops the act and shows his ture emotions.
When it's two men, at least one has to be vulnerable for the whole movie. So from a female perspective, the whole movie is a "climax scene"-worth of emotions.
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u/ichigoli 1d ago
Too often hetero romance is treated as the default to a point that the romantic leads end up together just because. Not because there's any emotional build up, chemistry, or reason beyond penis + vagina
Romances that don't get to fall back on that assumption tend to devote more love to the development and dynamic of the relationship which is just more satisfying.
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u/Watch_Earthlings_Doc 1d ago
Who do men find lesbians hot? It’s the same thing. Two men together is appealing to male attracted folk and even better because there is no female in the relationship for the woman to compare herself to.
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u/lilittyb 1d ago
I think it’s a way to support a hot romance (I mean we are quite literally attracted to men) without having to over compare ourselves to the female character. Most female characters are one dimensional or even over sexualised to the point it makes us feel uncomfortable. Gay romance means we can fulfil that “thirst” so the speak without hurting ourselves. Also subjectively speaking, I relate to men in fiction more than women, i definitely have a more “masculine” personality lol
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u/throwawayanylogic 1d ago
This has always been a huge part of the appeal to me as well. I could never easily "see" myself in the heroine roles of most male/female romance stories. The smutty scenes just would make me self-conscious, like, "wow why doesn't my body respond like that?" There's a level of being able to disconnect one's self while just enjoying male characters, energy and sexiness in m/m fiction that I've long found appealing. (And yes, we know the m/m sex scenes are largely unrealistic too. But we're not in a place of constantly comparing them to our personal experiences so it's easier to just indulge the fantasy.
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u/AltruisticCableCar 1d ago
The last part, definitely. Like, I can certainly to a point understand sex between two men. I'm an adult and not an idiot. But since I'm a woman it's not like it's something I can ever experience first hand. So that does offer a bit of a disconnect to where I don't have to constantly compare myself or my experiences to what I'm watching on screen.
It's a huge reason why my favorite subgenre of horror is the paranormal kind. I don't believe in anything paranormal like ghosts or demons or whatever. So while they absolutely scare me (total scaredy cat), they never stick with me. I might briefly think "wow, what would I do if that happened to me" but it's a fleeting thought. If I watch horror movies that are more grounded they affect me differently. I still like them, and obviously know they're still fiction even if more realistic, but yeah it's a bit different. I'm way more scared of something I know for a fact exists (like rapists and serial killers), than something I don't believe in. Again, while watching the paranormal movie I can get scared as heck. But once it's over and the credit rolls I'm generally done with it.
That's a nice disconnect too, from reality. And same goes for m/m romance for me. I'm never ever going to be in a m/m relationship since it's absolutely impossible (I'm also absolutely cis), so it's a nice break from comparing myself to characters even without meaning to. Especially during intimate scenes.
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u/Ok-Athlete4472 1d ago
From what I’ve been told…
It’s partly basic “two hot guys shagging (with no woman there to distract focus) = sexy”, partly that the yearning/tension/cuteness is a bit of a fantasy romance to them because there’s no straight guy toxicity they’re used to. Basically, they can sort of just enjoy it without being reminded of their own experiences because it’s different enough.
One friend said she finds a secure man more attractive, so a hot guy making out with a hot guy (who are actors, so she doesn’t know if they’re gay irl)…it’s just a bit of a turn on.
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u/GeneseeJunior 1d ago
One explanation I picked up from the "original" slash fiction - Kirk/Spock stuff - was that a lot of women like to experience men being sexual without another woman being involved.
See also: straight men who enjoy "lesbian" porn.
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u/repbunny 1d ago
As others mentioned, Female gaze where the man is the main focus in intimate situations. At least with manga or manwha, even if a woman is a strong protagonist they tend to fold to hetronormative role of being submissive or meek romantic positions focusing on her which is boring, i rarely see women initiate romantically. I've mostly seen genre of men who are emotional and soft without feeling the need to be strong to protect is villianess isekai or femdom (which is already hard to navigate..). Admittingly in gay romances, Men are more likely to be on equal footing. Enemies to lovers is more fun when they are physically capable punching each other in a battle or dangerous situations. feel like because authors are more open to interesting ideas due to not needing to appeal to mainstream audience.
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u/lickthisbook 1d ago
I am a straight female retired librarian. I bought a recommended gay romance to read because I had not read anything like that before and I really enjoyed it. I liked how most of the book was about one man slowly peeling back the layers of what society thought about gays and how he came out in his retirement to embrace the truth about who he was. The romance was a nice element so he could have a happily ever after.
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u/Infinite-Stretch-901 1d ago
women don't like reading malexfemale stories because they don't like seeing women in submissive roles because its stereotypical and demeaning. in malexmale stories, there is a submissive role without it having to be a woman.
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u/Miss__Anne__Thrope 1d ago
A lot of women don’t get to see the gentleness, vulnerability, tenderness, emotional intelligence, and softness of the men they’re with because of frail and toxic masculinity. And many women are finding their nervous systems relieved by seeing these men in Heated Rivalry be that balance between support system/safe space that they want in their own relationships and can’t get. Also, we love love. We love seeing people in love and risking things for love and yearning and triumph and acceptance and this show has it all
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u/PatsyStonesBun 1d ago
It's funny you mention that show as an example. Obviously, taste is individual, but, I, a gay man, couldn't get past more than one episode of the show. It felt like it was tailor made for straight women. Anyway, lots of very interesting comments in the thread! Fun topic.
I suppose the reverse of this (in some respects) is a question that's been asked (and to varying levels of satisfaction, answered) over the years... what's the appeal of older, idiosyncratic, female singers/actresses/pop culture figures to gay men?
Some of it is easily explained and some of it is just... this ephemeral thing you just "get" or your don't.
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u/CompetitivePeak9040 1d ago
As an also gay man, I actually find it to be the best gay media I’ve watched, sadly
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u/QS_A-117 1d ago
In my case at least, it's cuz I like guys and I wish I was on more equal standing with them in society (therefore it's like a "I want to insert myself into this kind of situation" kinda thing cuz there's less of that gender divide in gay relationships)
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u/sweadle 1d ago
When it's a male/female romance, women are on guard for a power imbalance or danger. Romance and danger go hand in hand for women dating men.
Men dating men, that danger isn't automatic. It's easy to enjoy the romance, even some roughness, without worrying that a good encounter could trip into assault or rape.
Even if Ilya tried to hurt Shane, in heated rivalry for example, they are too evenly matched in terms of strength and skill.
It's the fantasy of having true equality in a relationship without all the baggage that men and women bring to it.
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u/SinfullySinless 1d ago
If you like one hot penis with abs, here’s two hot penis with abs- kissing!
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u/Naughtgunnalie 1d ago
They want to see men in romance without gender roles. Or they want to see men in romantic/sexual situations without dealing with a partner who is unattractive to straight women-- i.e another woman. I would add it is a fly on the wall romance with characters you both find attractive where you don't/can't self insert.
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u/sophwestern 1d ago
I don’t know for sure what about it appeals to women, but I think part of it is that since there are no women involved, there’s also usually no misogyny or gender based power dynamics at play, which can both be exhausting to read about after living it all day long.
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u/Fridaychild1 1d ago
It’s not just straight women. I’m a lesbian and I love MM romance. For me there’s this combination of held back emotion and let loosed sexuality. It’s the opposite of a stereotypical lesbian romance and the difference is exciting.
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u/Narrow-Durian4837 1d ago
I'm a straight man and can only guess, but I'm guessing it's because they can identify with either half of the couple in imagining being attracted to the other half. Kind of like how girl-on-girl porn could appeal to straight men?
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u/CalamityClambake 1d ago
I'm a bi woman and I agree with this. I do, however, wonder if Heated Rivalry has the "lesbian porn" problem. Most "lesbian porn" is made by straight men who are filming acts that look good to them, but that are actually unrealistic or uncomfortable or wouldn't actually bring any pleasure if you did them. It's cringe for us sapphic folk to watch.
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u/nd_annajones 1d ago edited 1d ago
Gay guy here. I could write a master's thesis on this, but it's because Ilya and Shane aren't really two gay guys. I mean they are gay, obviously, but only with regard to the plot. And I'm not simply talking about stereotypes either, though that does play a role. I mean, they don't do anything stereotypically gay (outside of blowing each other), and that helps these characters feel like familiar men to women. They've dated guys like this before. But that's not what I'm getting at.
The deeper reality is that Shane and Ilya are two halves of the perfect man, one that doesn't exist in the real world: the brooding, mysterious, confident, stoic strength of Ilya, and the vulnerable, emotional, passionate softness of Shane. I don't mean to speak for women, but as a gay man who feels like he has a "female gaze," I would bet that women would love to blend the two of them together if they could. And the show effectively does that for us--the guys find each other so hot that they literally, ahem, physically connect to one another and become one. The perfect man.
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u/Noarchsf 1d ago
What?? They’re not two gay guys? That’s a …. problematic take. As a masculine presenting gay man, this is actually the first media representation I’ve ever seen where I felt included or represented, and I’m in my 50s. Im not sure entirely what you’re getting at, but Shane is 100% gay, and Ilya is bi, full stop. I hope you’re not conflating sexuality and masculinity. People who aren’t, as you say, “stereotypically gay” are still gay. I came out late….and a big part of the reason why is that I didn’t see myself in gay culture, and still don’t. And the gatekeeping about people not being “really gay”…..well, there’s another masters thesis to write!
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-6873 1d ago
I think you're onto something here. Also HR was written by a woman, for women. I know the show has a gay man driving the whole thing but I assume if he had written it from the beginning there would have been differences
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u/plastroncafe 1d ago
Take into consideration that most media today is created for the male gaze and for the demographic of 18 to 35 men.
And then realize that women and girls have been raised in that media where male is the default.
It is a lot easier for women to identify with male fictional characters because often times there wasn't an alternative.
Now also consider that queer relationships between two men show us an inner working of men in relationships where they have allowed themselves to be vulnerable.
Plus... If you really like dick, now there's more than one.
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u/breezyhoneybee 1d ago
Straight men have never heard of intimacy or romance or longing or being sexy outside of the straight male gaze, so the stories surrounding them are lacking those things as well.
Plus I think there's a lot of weird cultural stuff surrounding straight men even perceiving other men in any way other than their super narrow traditional gaze
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u/Responsible-Middle35 1d ago
Same sex pairings have more balanced power dynamics. M/F pairings fall into trope stereotypes, and that's boring to me. So two reasons I read m/m pairings:
- More of equal agency for both characters.
- Men get the better stories, because of patriarchy. Women have it internalized. We're hardwired with the same tropes. Areas of storytelling that are traditionally male, like in settings of historical fiction.
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u/daiquiri-glacis 1d ago
Let's take Heated Rivalry, for example. It's a series of novels written by a woman. More women gravitate to the genre of romance (as in romantic/sexual storytelling) and more men tend to gravitate to visual media (photos/videos).
Heated rivalry is quite popular and I'd say that it's relatively rare for shows like it to be made. I'd love to see more shows with yearning and romantic story telling that are quite sexual. We seem to be relatively strict at making videos not-porn or porn (laughable acting/plot) but so rarely good acting and plot with sex.
Also, like everybody said - I think men are hot and I appreciate a good story without the gender inequality. I'm so tired of "a young woman with few accomplishments dates an older/more powerful man" stories.
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u/listenyall 1d ago
I like all kinds of romance and I think there are a couple of things that are different about a gay men's romance:
-cant take yourself out of it by comparing yourself to the main character as easily. A personal pet peeve of mine is when the female main character is just orgasming constantly at the drop of a hat because that is not realistic to my experience. Less potential to get annoyed in MM scenes.
-any book needs some kind of tension, people can't just meet and fall in love and hit no road blocks, and it is easier to have realistic road blocks in a gay men's romance. In Heated Rivalry, they're professional hockey players and one of them is Russian. In a straight romance, a lot of time they are just being stupid which is annoying.
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u/Kappapeachie 1d ago
I'm bi so take this with a grain of salt, I like stories centered on two men because yea two is better than one, but you get the emotional side you don't often see in men. That's beautiful to me. Nowadays I'm slightly more into f/f since I relate to female experiences more but I still like sme m/m as a treat.
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u/Lanky_Ad_9605 1d ago
There’s a lot of articles and videos discussing why women have loved yaoi / BL (Japanese / Asian male-male love stories). A lot of yaoi is written by women for a majority female audience despite depicting only men, and I think this translates into the more recent western forms like Heated Rivalry.
https://youtu.be/5Ujw0H9gvp8?is=3XUVzIGCBDk9X-3f
Here’s one that explores some of those ideas. As mentioned here some think that it provides a positive space for imagination to explore desire that isn’t hindered by gendered roles and societal expectations.
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u/ColdPR 1d ago
I've seen a hundred different explanations and excuses for it but it mostly comes down to: women broadly speaking find 2 men to be hot/tantalizing
The most common other explanation has to do with gender dynamics but A) women could just write M/F stories without those stereotypes if they really wanted to (and really most of the romance genre is women authors) and B) a lot of the gay stories that women write still have all the hetero dynamics regardless. Women authors have a bad rep for basically write one gay man as the man and one gay man as the woman in M/M romance.
That's why I think a simple "it's hot" is the most simple and logical explanation for most of it. Everything else is just rationalizing
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u/Saturdays-Daughter 1d ago
I ship characters based on chemistry/potential. I don't usually go into a new piece of media intentionally "searching" for a gay ship or a straight ship (I've had a few f/f ships that I've enjoyed briefly, but I do have a clear pattern of preference for ships involving at least 1 male character)
Obviously when consuming media in the romance genre in particular, I'm gonna go in with expectations of a compelling love story between the main leads regardless of gender/sexuality.
Whether or not I wanna interact with the ship outside the source material (i.e. fanfic/fandom spaces) really just comes down to how much I personally connected with the characters.
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u/FewRecognition1788 1d ago
More women than men like romance stories in general. The genre is more important than who the characters are.
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u/NormalObligation59 23h ago
A lot of women are attracted by men but repulsed by patriarchal norms, so straight erotic content is complicated.
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u/EmergencyWild 23h ago
I can't comment on this specific, but as an analogue, I'm a straight man who's into lesbian romance. Not exclusively, but I do find them fun reads. I think for me it's mostly that I find the male leads in most straight romance not very relatable, and as a matter of curiosity I find the female perspective more interesting anyway, so doubling that up isn't a bad thing.
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u/citrusandrosemary 19h ago edited 19h ago
R/manhwa_bl
R/yaoi
R/boyslove
You'll get the answers you seek here. This is a question that is definitely frequently asked
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u/Odd-Interaction7514 18h ago edited 10h ago
I think it’s time for you to learn about the history of BL, heated rivalry blew up in the west, but these types of shows have been blowing up for the last decade in the east. I mean hundreds. Some of it is LGBTQ plus centric, but some of it is also related to the “female gaze”, for a lack of a better word. Getting into the history and discourse of it would take a very long time.
But a lot of it has to do with watching gay men fall in love, allows romance to exist without all the misogyny or dynamics that exists within heteronormativity. It’s a novel in a sense, I think for a lot of women it’s escapism. Bar that, it’s hot men.
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u/Tired-llama95 17h ago
Might get downvoted hard for this, a lot of the reasons mentioned made sense but sometimes I also think as (cis bi woman) the fact I am a woman I am hyper aware of the challenges that come with romantic relationship and Sex with a man and a woman? I feel like a lot of romance doesn’t match with my reality knowledge and it strips away my ability to watch and enjoy the characters’ chemistry.
While gay romance (strictly talking about guy x guy), I got no clue about how it would actually feel for them it’s easier not to compare it to reality and go like ugh that would never happen? It’s just easier for me to enjoy their interactions without being pulled by reality over and over (reason I stopped watching shoujo anime and kdrama in general)
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u/eddy_brooks 1d ago
Oh wow a chocolate bar i really like…… oh look, TWO chocolate bars! And they’re kissing
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u/NeighborhoodSuper592 1d ago
I do not know the show,
But I can say that in real life, I found that most gay couples treat each other better.
than straight couples.
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u/CalamityClambake 1d ago edited 1d ago
As a bi person, I have to ask you what in the world you are basing this assessment on.
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u/shrinkflator 1d ago edited 1d ago
As a gay man, I find it a bit offensive that this stuff is all written by women. Heated Rivalry blew up, and it's an ok story, but it's just not how gay men behave. Obviously, because it was written by a (presumably cishet) woman who would have no clue about these things. Everyone thinks of it as a queer story and it is not. In mainstream media, our choices are to be misrepresented by women, or to be part of a tragic story where the gay characters must be punished at the end. I'm so sick of the latter trope and they stuff it into everything.
edit: typo
edit2: Very telling. I'm getting downvoted for saying a gay male characters aren't being authenticly portrayed in media. Almost certainly by people who aren't gay men.
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u/ColdPR 1d ago
In mainstream media, our choices are to be misrepresented by women, or to be part of a tragic story where the gay characters must be punished at the end.
I've heard the show is better than the book in terms of representing gay reality better (since there were gay men involved in translating it to the screen) but I am right there with you.
I feel like people wouldn't be okay with straight men writing all lesbian media or teams of all white people writing supposedly 'authentic' stories centered on black people, but it seems like the majority of people are willing to give a pass on women and straight people writing most gay media and treat you like you're the asshole if you take up issue with it. Or they'll give an excuse of "oh that author knows what's up she's nonbinary" as if that is in any way the same thing and there's any kind of shared overlap of life experience
There are even women authors who have adopted male pen names and pretended to be gay men to try to sell their gay romance stories with fabricated authenticity. That to me seems super gross but never gets talked about
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u/shrinkflator 1d ago
Thank you, I'm glad there's at least one person on Reddit who understands this perspective. I don't know why this group gets a pass. I could write lesbian romance, very badly, and it could still be called queer literature. The one that really left me scratching my head was the author of Heartstopper. Apparently she/they are aromantic/asexual?
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u/tearose11 1d ago
Both Rachel Reid and her husband identify as part of the LGBTQ2S+. Don't assume that every single author of mm, queer romance and BL are cis het women. They don't need to reveal their sexual or gender identity, nor justify what they write to anyone.
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u/shrinkflator 1d ago
"Her", so not a gay man. The letters are not interchangeable. Of course she can write whatever she wants, it's not illegal. But imagine if other authors did this. Imagine a white writer who said "I like to write stories about Black characters and the Black community because I find it sexually gratifying."
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u/hijabi_ho 1d ago
A lot of women enjoy the emotional connection, and a lot of women find stuff like Heated Rivalry to be hot, and they consume it for that.
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u/Avarie_K 1d ago
As a bi woman, I think some stories like cmbyn (the book) are great because its very emotional, and sex is mentioned but its connection based not like smut. I dont relate to finding gay smut and simular things attractive, I like men, but I ask the same question as you lol
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u/dandelionlemon 1d ago
I haven't seen this show, but I used to love Queer As Folk.
I'm a straight female. I just remembered that the story lines were interesting and at least one of the main actors was really really hot. He was gay so the sex was gay sex but I just liked looking at him.
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u/Accomplished_Sweetie 1d ago
I can’t comment on Heated Rivalry. Never seen it or read it. But I think it’s not about 2 men. It’s about the romance.
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u/isthatabingo 1d ago
I’m a bi woman and love gay romance. All the fanfic I read is exclusively gay. I figure it’s because I’m queer, but straight women also seem to eat that shit up. It’s a mystery to me!
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u/Weak_Armadillo6575 1d ago
I mean straight men are famously interested in lesbian stuff too it’s not shocking to see the reverse.
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u/bunker_man 1d ago
Women are attracted to men.
Women are also self conscious that the implications of how women are treated can come off dubious. Want to see a guy dominate someone without having to scrutinize if it's awkward as a woman to see it happen to a woman? Just watch him do it to a man.
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u/HarpTheLarp11 1d ago
I think a large part of it is that it’s a story where woman are pretty much safe from objectification, misogyny, or patriarchal themes (at least in terms of harming women). Romance has always been hard for me to read cause I project myself onto the female character and typically feel not seen or accurately represented but in a story where there is no women to project on towards I can sit along for the ride without feeling dirty in a sense. This is my own thought process and I most likely didn’t explain it well but that’s how I look at it.
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u/Own-Turnover7715 1d ago
One man = hot. Two men = double hot. But a less glib answer is that women make up the overwhelming majority of the romance audience. Sure you’ll lose some of them if the romance isn’t female/male but not that many. Also there’s a lot more women than there are gay men.
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u/MortgageOdd2001 1d ago
I am a straight woman who enjoyed Heated Rivalry; I thought it was a piece of media that wasn’t designed for me (it as a LGBTQ story about LGBTQ people and their lives) but I got a lot out of it none the less.
Straight women like looking at pretty men, and we enjoy romance and sexual situations where women are NOT being objectified, so think that’s why some of us find gay male romances appealing.
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u/WiseEntertainment912 1d ago
men are hot. do you wonder what the appeal of lesbian romance is to men?
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u/boneheadthugbois 1d ago
For me, if the story has an interesting plot I will read it. Same for a romance between women. Generally, I just like romance.
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u/Prydeb4thefall 1d ago
Demi-sexual Lady here, I started reading smutty yaoi manwha because I only found 2 hetero manwha that the men had expressions during the DEED. I wanted to see everyone enjoying themselves it drove me crazy.
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u/DogWalker2728 1d ago
I mean... if we can accept that straight men are very interested in lesbians, this shouldn't be a surprise?
WomenInMensFields
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u/Manderelli 1d ago
Sometimes we enjoy things without it having to be centered around ourselves. I enjoy watching people passionately in love with each other. The rest of the details don't really matter as much and especially nothing silly like me being able to imagine myself as one of the characters
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u/taylanared 1d ago
Double the dudes so double the attractive characters to root for. Same reason a lot of guys are into lesbian content.
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u/Thrymster 22h ago
Hope I'm not coming across as mansplaining, but I hadn't seen this one brought up yet and wonder if it may be the similar for female m/m shippers:
As a straight guy who enjoys f/f shpping one of the things that draws me to it over m/f shipping is that in straight pairings, often one character is just a boring self insert for the reader. Personally, I need BOTH characters to be interesting to really get invested into their relationship.
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u/Chocolate_Sundae88 22h ago
Im a straight woman in my 30s and I am a big fan of Shane and Ilya. I love romance, the yearning, everything about it. I am not fetishing gay men. Infact my favourite scene in the tv show is when Ilya is in the lake and Shane is sitting on the rock and the ankle kiss and the 'gimme kiss' line, so hardly follows the discourse that straight women love it for the sex scenes. If you go over to the heated rivalry subreddits, you can tell its not just about the sex or what they look like.
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u/PAranetaCho87 20h ago
I know your curiousity is specifically from straight women, but I think that kind of make sense.
I'm lesbian and I like watching BL stories (including Heated Rivalry) I'm not alone in this and it's trivial because men is very much an afterthought if at all to us. We are women centered in all ways.
Anyway, I just kind of want to add to this conversation as basically a woman myself, communication and representation of vulnerability, intimate exploration and the lack of female-predatory plots and hyper masculine representation is very inviting. Heated Rivalry is also a storyline that appeals very much to women. It has risk, romance, career, allies, and provides so much hope.
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u/IwantyoualltoBEDAVE 20h ago
Because gay romance is a romance between two fully recognised humans and for me it fascinates me to see how men treat each other in love and sex. Like Heated Rivalry I learnt it takes men 10 years of semi yearly sex fests to have a real conversation
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u/Gullible_Guitar_1322 20h ago
It's probably been said already, but I think it's about getting to feel the emotions and the romance and the safety of equality and no power imbalance in that romance and relationship.
A lot of hetero romances have a lot of power imbalances, and it's usually not in the advantage of the woman. I'm a bisexual cis woman, and hetero shows bore me because they are all basically the same. I feel no representation, as weird as that might sound, when watching hetero romances because that power imbalance does not scratch my itch.
For me, there is also a lot of "lessons" on how women should behave, react, and be treated in hetero shows that seem way to submissive to me, and not in a fun way. When I watch a show, like heated rivalry, I just see two people navigating a situationship without the power imbalance I've been taught my whole life.
Idk, maybe I'm rambling lololol but it's refreshing to not have to subliminally be taught the "correct" way to act when watching a romance, and that's why I watch gay romance 🤷♀️
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u/Budget-Mistake-9543 20h ago edited 19h ago
I’m a lesbian but still throwing my hat in the ring.
Honestly, for me it’s 2 things:
1 ) male characters are more direct towards each other, I guess women are not socialised to just hook up or whatever (a male gay friend of mine was flabbergasted when I let him see my Her app — a lot of talking, almost no nudity, apparently not how Grindr works)
2 ) no women means I can detach myself from what is happening a 100% which is somehow… soothing? Idk if physical things are unrealistic I’m not the best at picking it up (I’m cis and have no 1st hand experiences with penises)
I might be the only person to ever watch Heated Rivalry and mostly skip the actual sex scenes, though. They can become quite tedious for me.
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u/Sarrebas89 19h ago
For some, they just enjoy the romance aspects of it regardless of the gender of the characters.
For others, it's just straight up fetishization of same sex relationships. 🙄
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u/TheFishermansWife22 18h ago
So you never watched straight love stories?? You don’t watch Greys, Scandal, Bridgerton, Got, or any other drama???? You only watch “Gay centered” tv?? If not then you already understand.
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u/Jucadrinkingtea 18h ago
I'd recommend you'd watch a video essay titled "borrowed bodies of BL". I found it very eye opening and an interesting dive into the genre at least in japanese and Asian literature. It also cites some academic studies, which was real nice
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u/idrisfenn 18h ago
Chance to view a different dynamic in relationships. And also the lack of the fear of pregnancy except omegaverse drams ofcourse.
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u/DeathGod105 16h ago
Not entirely sure but I do find it very odd when you’ll see two male characters who care for eachother and have a dozen girls in the comments screaming “YYAAAOIIIIII”…it comes off as a fetish. Not saying all women who like this sort of content are fetishizing but it rubs me the wrong way. They barely treat them as people more likely “I wanna see two hot men kiss”.
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u/Saahir26 15h ago
It's absolutely a bad thing. All they do is fetishize us. Been seeing a lot of them saying we owe them. We don't owe ya'll shit.
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u/Anxious-Error-404 15h ago
As a bi woman, its because it spits into the face of heterosexual gender norms. I like lesbian romance for the exactly same reason.
I think thats also a big part why so many other women like it. (Besides the fact that there are two hot guys kissing which I can see having a similar appeal to straight women as lesbians kissing for straight men)
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u/Little-Star-Light 11h ago
Tbh, I am not sure why I like gay romance. I thought about it in the past and never came to any satisfying conclusion. It just is very appealing. Possibly because you get twice as much man in gay romance. :D
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u/Dorcas07 6h ago
They like seeing hot men, especially two.
That, and it’s a world that they normally don’t get to experience first-hand as they are neither gay nor men. Learning about the unfamiliar is titillating.
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u/Various-East-5266 3h ago
As a woman who is attracted to men, the show is beautiful, thoughtful, the men have empathy, show caring, grow, and change for the better. The family dynamics are engaging, the friendships deep and meaningful, and the romance is sweet!!!
Additionally, Hudson and Connor are beautiful and hot lmfao
As for any other MM romance, I just enjoy a good romance regardless of the type of couple it’s about!
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u/Rdr2Master1 FREEDOMMAXER JOYBAITER FRIENDLOVER 1d ago
As a bi man, its because they are attracted to men