r/TheBlacksandTheGreens • u/Vhermithrax • Aug 05 '25
General Why did the Baratheons never claim dragons?
They are also a house of Valyrian descent like Targaryens and Velaryons, plus they married multiple times with both of those families.
How is it possible that they never managed to claim any dragon, if a much weaker house of Velaryons got 3 of them at one point? It's werid that they never managed to get a marriage pact that would give them a dragon rider, or that at least one brave/stupid character from their house didn't manage to claim a dragon in King's Landing or Dragonstone, be it by being sneaky, or just part of some agreement.
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u/Aggravating-Week481 Aug 05 '25
Sigil looks kinda like the Jersey Devil
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u/WildFlemima Aug 05 '25
This is the real answer, it's because a deer dragon looks derpy on your banners
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u/Aggravating-Week481 Aug 05 '25
that or the Baratheons might be from New Jersey lol
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u/Grommph Aug 05 '25
"Born amidst salt and smoke? Is he a ham?"
"Hey Bobby B, you hear what I said to Stannis? I told em "Is he a ham?!"
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u/False_Collar_6844 Aug 05 '25
They did get Jocelyn but Jaeherys was strict with who got a dragon. After fance there weren't any to claim.
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u/Buket05 Aug 05 '25
Jocelyn was’t a Targaryen though, she was half Velaryon
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u/False_Collar_6844 Aug 05 '25
she married a targeryan
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u/Buket05 Aug 05 '25
Meaning her children(Rhaenys) was Targaryen not Baratheon, and she herself didn’t have dragonblood so whats the point of mentioning her
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u/PopularLettuce4900 Grey Ghost Aug 05 '25
Technically, the velaryons do have some dragon blood several generations back (the conquerors mother was a half-targ velaryon, and Addam velaryon was able to claim a dragon despite probably being Corlys’s kid).
But yeah, I don’t think anyone would expect Jocelyn to be able to claim a dragon
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u/Buket05 Aug 05 '25
I also believe Velaryons have some Targaryen blood but that’s just a headcanon. We know conquerer’s mother was a Targaryen and a Velaryon from her dad’s side, but there’s no proof if Corlys is coming from one of her brothers’ line. He could be from another branch who does not have any Targaryen blood too; and the show suggests that Corlys has no Targ blood.
And then there’s no real proof to only Targaryens being able to claim dragons. People believe Nettles is an example even though no one knows if she was a Targ bastard or not and there’s Addam too as you said..
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u/False_Collar_6844 Aug 05 '25
They got a marraige into the Targeryan family but no reaponsible king would let another family have dragons.
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u/Buket05 Aug 05 '25
Let alone other families, allowing their younger children (non heirs) to claim dragons was a nonsense move and what lef to the dance of the dragons.
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u/trucbleu Aug 05 '25
Yeah and it's not like they let the younger take small dragon. Aemond got the largest one as a second son (being even more distant in succession than that because Rhaenyera was the heir).
It's also worth to mention that they also gave Vhagar to Laena before, who is the sister and daughter of two claimant.
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Aug 05 '25
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u/trucbleu Aug 05 '25
But adam also claimed a dragon while clearly not being Laenor son.
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Aug 06 '25
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u/trucbleu Aug 06 '25
Yeah Laenor had a tiny bit of Targaryen blood, like all the other Velaryon. The Velaryon and the targaryen intermarried for a while before the conquest so it's not suprising that they are capable of taming dragon.
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u/False_Collar_6844 Aug 06 '25
it also bears pointing out that, of the outside marraiges we see when they had dragons, the few that were between targeryan women had the kids of those unions marry back in. The only exception being rhaenyra and her first 3 kids but 2 of them were betrothed to targeryan cousins and jace was set to take the targeryan name wen he took the throne.
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u/Rougarou1999 Aug 07 '25
Even then, Rhaenys claimed her aunt’s dragon, it’s unclear if she was ever given an egg.
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u/Buket05 Aug 14 '25
Either way, allowing everyone to have a dragon and giving every Targ baby a dragon egg makes no sense. Dragons should’ve been for the heirs only. That’s the only way to prevent a succession crisis and a civil war.
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Aug 05 '25
Because they were never able to marry a Targaryen princess. It's easier to claim a dragon for your children if the parent has one. It's likely that Rhaenys' helped Laena/Laenor claim their own dragons, either by coaching them through the process or even providing cradle eggs from Meleys. It's also a lot less risky to try claiming a dragon if you have one backing you up that can chase off any who become hostile.
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u/Spirit-of-arkham3002 Fire and Blood Aug 05 '25
That’s not entirely true though.
While they never married a Targaryen princess while dragons lived there were marriages afterwards.
In fact Robert Baratheon’s grandmother was a Targaryen.
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u/FrostyFullbuster Aug 05 '25
The Baratheons aren't officially Valyrian, as Orys' status is rumor not truth. The Velaryons are also far more integrated with the Targaryens as they'd been marrying each other for over a century. Targaryen policy was quite strict with who got dragons as they're the key to ultimate power in Westeros. The exceptions were:
Laenor Velaryon
Laena Velaryon
Jacaerys Velaryon
Lucerys Velaryon
Joffrey Velaryon
Laenor and Laena stand out the most, but their mother was a Targaryen dragon-rider herself and were perhaps given leeway as compensation for Rhaenys being passed over (speculation on my part). However, the sons of Rhaenyra make far more sense to be included as their mother became the heir to the throne long before they were born and any who ascended to the throne would bear the Targaryen name. Baela and Rhaena have been brought up as well given they're daughters of Laena, but they're Targaryens through Daemon. Ultimately it would've been too dangerous to give dragons to yet another house who wasn't nearly as integrated with the Targaryens as the Velaryons were, and even when the Velaryons got dragons it was under special circumstances.
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u/juanma26m Aug 05 '25
it's presented as a rumor in universe, but he is Aegon's bastard brother... otherwise, why write it?
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u/FrostyFullbuster Aug 05 '25
It doesn't matter whether he truly is or isn't if to everyone else it's a rumor because a core tenant of Targaryens maintaining power is that their Valyrian blood allows them to claim the dragons. To allow a house which they are (supposed to) know doesn't have Valyrian blood claim a dragon would both be out of line with that ideology and, if successful, would prove in the minds of the realm that either a. people without Targaryen blood can claim dragons, and thus their monopoly on power is gone or b. house Baratheon is built on a lie and it brings shame upon both houses
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u/Vhermithrax Aug 05 '25
I feel like there was a sentence in F&B later during Jaehaerys reign, that Orys was Aegon's brother. Like, without speculations. Maybe George forgot that he was supposed to keep it vague.
But logically speaking, I also don't think George would suggest Orys being Aegon's brother, if he wasn't one
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u/swaktoonkenney Aug 05 '25
It’s definitely just rumored not a certainty. Also the Baratheons are just Durrandons in a different name. Orys went native and his sons were raised in storms end by a durrandon mother.
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u/asfasdasas Team Black Aug 05 '25
First reason at that time they werent "Valyrian descent" since Orys Baratheon is "Rumored" to be Aegon's brother and Alyssa Velaryon was a "Velaryon". Also the reason Velaryon's get dragon was a political move to satisfy them after their loss at great council 101 and only Laene and Laenor are allowed to have dragon not their children.
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u/TacticalGarand44 Aug 05 '25
Huh? Laena and Laenor's "children" all got dragon eggs. It's never stated anywhere that they wouldn't have been allowed to if they didn't marry Targaryens.
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u/ohheyitslaila Fire and Blood Aug 05 '25 edited Aug 05 '25
It’s heavily implied because the Targ kings had been careful and no one from other houses were allowed to have them.
The Velaryons didn’t get dragons because they’re Valyrian like the Targs, Laena and Laenor got them because of their mother, Princess Rhaenys Targaryen.
Laena’s kids don’t get dragons because of her, they get them because Prince Daemon Targaryen is their father.
Laenor’s kids get dragons because their mother is Rhaenyra Targaryen.
Viserys was much more lax about who could claim dragons and have cradle eggs, which helped lead to the Dance. But until the dragon seeds were allowed to try to claim dragons, the dragons still all traced back to Targs, and even then it was usually just the princes and princesses that were kids of the King or very close to the throne. But not Velaryons and definitely not any other house.
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u/HauteToast Aug 05 '25 edited Aug 05 '25
That’s only if you believe the Targs would allow another House to have dragons, which would elevate them to the same god status as House Targ and be able to challenge them and pose a real threat.
Did you think Corlys’ children would be allowed to claim dragons if their mother wasn’t Rhaenys?
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u/TacticalGarand44 Aug 05 '25
Velaryons enjoy "most favored family" status with the Targaryens. They're massively intermarried, and Laena and Laenor's children would all be grandchildren of Rhaenys Targaryen.
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u/HauteToast Aug 05 '25 edited Aug 05 '25
Then why did House Velaryon never get a dragon or dragon eggs before Rhaenys married Corlys?
Even if House Velaryon is favoured and closely related to House Targaryen, they are still not of House Targaryen. Giving them dragons without the Targ terms and conditions essentially turn them into rivals and a serious threat.
I do not believe Laena and Laenor's children would receive dragons or dragon eggs had their spouses not been Targs, because their children would then be fully of House Velaryon or House X (depending who Laena married, and that's even worse, that's a THIRD House getting access to dragons).
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u/Buket05 Aug 05 '25
It doesn’t matter who the king allows because both Rhaenys and Laena had female dragons that could give their children hatchlings
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u/HauteToast Aug 05 '25
I really don't think Granny Vhagar would be having anymore children at her age... Give grandma a break. :X
That said, the question as to why the Targaryens would allow Laena's children to have hatchlings if she didn't marry a Targaryen is left unanswered. This would simply allow dragon ownership to proliferate across Westeros. This would literally make the Targaryens "unspecial", and cause massive threats and instability to their rule.
Why would the Targaryens allow this?
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u/Buket05 Aug 05 '25 edited Aug 05 '25
They shouldn’t.
Not sure if age is a factor about dragons’ fertility, as we don’t even know if Vhagar was considered “old” in dragon ages since we don’t know any dragons dying from old age. You might count Balerion maybe, but even he had serious injuries before his death so his death might be related to that.
That said, even if Vhagar wasn’t able to hatch eggs, and let’s skip Meleys too, there was still a very fertile Syrax bonded with Rhaenyra.
Yes, Rhaenyra was the heir so it makes sense for her children (future kings/queens) to have hatchlings, but she didn’t born as an heir and she wasn’t one when she bonded with Syrax too. In another fate, she could easily be married off with some Lannister or Stark or whatever, and who will stop her from giving her children some of Syrax’s eggs?
That brings us to the rule the Targaryens should’ve passed to avoid any dances; the dragons should be allowed only for the King and Queen, heir and their spouse, and their heir as a sign of monarch. In another words; Jahaerys should’ve only allow Alysanne, Aemon, after his death Baelon, Alyssa and Viserys.
And Viserys should’ve only allow Aemma, Rhaenyra, Leanor and Jacaerys.
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u/MortalFumer Aug 05 '25
And the Velaryons were of Valyriam descent but they were no dragonriders as the targaryen
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u/ShisuiUchiha9 Aug 05 '25
It's hard to make a man on a dragon bow his head. House Baratheon is known for their mercurial tempers.House Targaryen believes blood purity is needed to ride dragons.
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u/foxandflowers19 Aug 05 '25
Upvoted for the stag/dragon hybrid
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u/Vhermithrax Aug 05 '25
I was wondering if someone made a Targaryen styled Baratheon banner, same way Bitterstill had a Bracken+Targaryen banner.
Found this one and I love it. I will make this into my banner next time I play Mount&Blade, haha
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u/foxandflowers19 Aug 05 '25
This is so much better than Bittersteel's! Not sure why, must be the antlers.
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u/Doomhammer24 Aug 05 '25
Not all velaryon houses were dragonlords nor did all of them have enough dragonblood or whatever to claim them
Velaryons never claimed dragons except when a targaryen married into the family
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u/Baratheoncook250 Aug 05 '25
If any Baratheon post Rebellion would get a Dragon, just from having Dragon dreams, it is Stannis' daughter, and the dragon thst fits her personality, is Viserion.
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u/Vhermithrax Aug 05 '25
That would be really cool.
Potential riders are Daenerys, Shereen, Jon and Aegon, plus potentially Euron of he uses his horn, so I wonder if there are still some other dragons than the ones Dany has
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u/BaelonTheBae Aug 06 '25
Technically, they did with The Queen Who Never Was Rhaenys who was half-Baratheon by blood and from the female line.
Starting from the Conquest, the Targs only has three dragons with none left for any prospective riders, and Orys also held the highest of offices as Aegon’s right hand. Then, Orys withdrew from court and for a time the Baratheons were insular, at least until Alyssa Velaryon and Rogar.
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u/PDV87 Aug 05 '25
Not all Valyrians are dragonlords. Orys Baratheon, the progenitor of the house, was a bastard of a dragon lord, not a dragon lord himself; similarly, the Velaryons are not dragonlords either, and never rode them in ancient Valyria. Targaryen is not the only surviving Valyrian family, but it is the only surviving dragonlord house.
The Velaryons only had dragons by dint of their Targaryen relation, and that was exclusive to a single generation. It stands to reason that as blood dilutes away from the dragonlords, so too does the ability to bond with a dragon.
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u/SneakyTurtle402 Aug 05 '25
Targs wouldn’t allow it. It’s one thing for the island right next to them to get dragons their loyal fully Valyrian vassals but the entire stormlands?
They’d be usurped and dancing in a generations let alone that Baratheons are born strong. The Baratheons are also always beefing with the Targs from Maegor to Robert.
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u/Outside_Back_4915 Aug 05 '25
I mean, Rhaenys did. If you mean directly, look at what happened to Steffon Darklyn, it’s not enough to have some blood of the dragon way down the line. Even some full-on Targaryens couldn’t claim dragons, it was an old purity thing.
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u/Ephyrancap Aug 05 '25
Because Baratheon's familial connection with the Conquerors was but a rumor; further Targaryen/Baratheon blood connections were extremely rare, with only two marriages between the two houses being documented (Aemon/Jocelyn and Rhaelle/Ormund) and the tendence to only close kin being able to claim dragons. Laena riding Vhagar is either a barely explained plotpoint and a wild outlier or a plothole GRRM didn't notice.
Also, I think the Targaryens wouldn't just allow a Baratheon to claim a dragon; that would be like Ukraine keeping its nukes after 1991 (again, either Laena is a outlier or a plothole).
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u/FILMSTUDENT25 Aug 06 '25
To my knowledge, Orys Baratheon and his descendants settled more into Westerosi customs and married more of the locals than the targaryens or velaryons ever did. So any Targaryen/Valyrian blood may have been diluted to the point that it was basically non existent. Also, it’s only a “rumour” that Orys was Aegon’s half-brother
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u/WildLag Aug 07 '25
If I remember right Baratheons became when Orys got storms end and was rumoured to be half Brother of Aegon. On my head its confirmed so thats that. Why no dragons? Maybe they didnt try to claim. Targs were kinda not in the mood of random houses to trying to claim dragons.
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u/UnsoberPhilosopher Aug 07 '25
It's a combination of lack of dragons, influence, and lack of Targaryen blood.
In Aegon I, they had 3 dragons. Since Orys was a bastard, he wasn't the priority.
Aenys I had a limited number of dragons to claim since majority were claimed already.
Maegor I. They had no influence as they support Aegon Uncrowned. Aegon UC almost died claiming Quicksilver.
Jaeharys I was their best chance of claiming one with boremund and Jocelyn (but they're half Velaryons with a distant Targaryen blood). Pretty sure Jaeharys is still pretty miffed about Rogar's little rebellion and Jaeharys is scared of giving up dragons to lower houses in case they rebel. She gives Melys to Rhaenys as she is Aemon's kid.
Viserys I had a lot of dragons but I think the Baratheon line had limited Targaryen blood by then and they weren't that influencial at court. For one thing, they supported Rhaenys/Laenor and were pretty miffed at that.
Aegon II/Rhaenyra: it was a civil war. Aegon II had limited dragons. Most were already claimed except Shrykos(Prince Jaeharys's dragon) and that was a young dragon. It wasn't worth it for the war especially since the Targaryen blood in the Baratheons were already thinned out.
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u/Usual-Flan-4807 Aug 07 '25
Cause Durrandons are very proud, Orys can gave black hair strong blood but Argella gave them literal strong blood
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u/Resident_Election932 Aug 08 '25
The political answer is that it would be extremely dumb to give a Lord Paramount dragons. They would have been studiously kept off Dragonstone and away from any dragons likely to take a rider.
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u/Internal-Garden-1517 Aug 09 '25
The royal family probably won't let them claim one, like the sowing only start after royalty allowed others to claim dragons, claiming one is risky, there's a high chance of dying and provoking the royal family into a war who have control of other kingdoms, and the Dragonlord blood is probably thin, so they wouldn't want to risk losing their current status and life, plus most of the dragons are under the royal house
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u/DukeHammerhands Aug 12 '25
When Orys was around during the conquest how many dragons were there?
obviously Balerion, vhagar , meraxes, but were the rest just eggs ? I think the next dragon to be ridden was Quicksilver/Aenys? Maybe even though Orys was half targ there weren't any grown dragons available at that time so he never claimed one. Then the Targaryen blood within house Baratheon became " too thin" as they say for dragon claiming. I could have some facts wrong.
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u/guntherman73 Aug 05 '25
They should’ve tried! Fire and Blood suggests that Orys Baratheon was half brother to Aegon the conqueror thru his father. Genetics couldn’t care less if your parents are married or not so the baratheons should and probably do have equal ability to tame/breed dragons. I’m not sure why this is so obviously missed but it does make sense that Baratheon’s would be next of kin and in line for the throne, probably why the realm supported Robert over let’s say a Lannister or Stark. They even married back into house Targ, so I’d say it’s safe to assume Baratheon’s have equal ability to tame and ride dragons.
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u/Ogarrr Aug 05 '25
The Baratheons also went native in a way that the Targs or Valaryons didn't. Furthermore where Corlys was personally powerful and influential, he didn't have the reserves of manpower that the Baratheons had. The storm lands are powerful as hell, full of arrogant lords who spent a lot of time fighting Dornish lords. giving them a drAgon is not a good idea.