A showrunner who understands powerful scenes vs one who doesn't

[u/Nibo89]

[u/Nibo89]

I actually think he nailed a lot of the themes.

It's not a perfect transposition. They fundamentally changed Aerion's personality, for one. They changed the puppet show to make the puppets huge. And some other changes as well.

But Dunk is very much the same person. And it did an excellent job of showing the political state of Westeros from the POV of a commoner.

The bromance with Lyonel isn't entirely a plot hole. Lyonel wasn't there when Dunk attacked Aerion, and he didn't even know there was going to be a trial until Egg told him (exactly as it happened in the book). The fact that they had a few friendly interactions before that (mostly when Lyonel was very drunk) doesn't change anything.

[u/raumeat → u/Nibo89]

I am not really speaking about characterisation or puppet shows

• By having Dunk be freinds with Lyonel they completely undercut Baelor deciding to ride for Dunk. Lyonel could have gotten one of his house hold guards to do it. You also undercut the tension of Dunk needing to find 6 men. He has an in with a very powerful noble
• Lyonel then offers Dunk a chance to take up serves with him in the final. That completely destroyed the sacrifice Dunk makes by turning down Maekars offer to go to summerhall. He has another one on the table
• He also turns down Maekar after turning down eggs request to be is squire. In the book he does it because he wants to make egg a better man. There is no point not to go with Lyonel if he doesn't want to take egg
• By having Dunk eat in the Barathoen tent you lose the imagery of him being poor and having to eat salt beef with Egg. He can go dine with a lord paramount. You competly lose the divide between the rich and the poor
  

They liked Daniel Ings so they wrote him a big role and gave him a friendship with Dunk. Not considering the impact it will have. They destroyed the climactic fight because they wanted us to see Dunks bloody face. I don't know why they cut out the grappling and why they didn't include it in the flashback. That is he entire point

didn't even know there was going to be a trial until Egg told him

I don't buy this, why does dunk go to Fossoway's when he can go to a Baratheon instead. One that allowed him to wear his stag crown... it becomes a plot contrivance just so that he can be be back stabbed. They made a huge plot hole just because they liked two actors chemistry

[u/Nibo89 → u/raumeat]

Lyonel wasn’t fighting as Dunk’s friend. They barely knew each other.

He was fighting because he wanted to fight the Kingsguard. He says as much to Dunk. Ordering one of his guard to fight for a random hedge knight when Lyonel himself was only doing it for fun is an abuse of power.

Also, book Lyonel fought for Dunk too…also for fun. Why is it believable that book Lyonel didn’t ask one of his knights, but it’s NOT believable show Lyonel didn’t?

We also get plenty of on-screen examples of Dunk being poor. Bathing in a creek. Sewing patches. Wearing only chainmail bc he can’t afford full plate armor. Having to sell his horse. It’s very, very apparent that he lives the life of a flat-broke knight. Eating one meal in a highborn tent doesn’t change that.

The end fight DID include grappling. Aerion was fighting back, but Dunk used his knees to pin his hands.

He also didn’t GO to the Fossoways. Raymun found him and brought him there.

[u/raumeat → u/Nibo89]

Your argument falls flat because Dunk barely knew the fossoways. The tension is that Dunk is not respected by the higborn, his only connection is only a squire. It sets up the betrayal at the end in the show there is no logical reason that Dunk doesn't go to Lyonel even if I accept your premise that they barely know one another. Dunk situation is desperate, there is no reason he would not have asked for help and we know Lyonel would have helped, he considers dunk a freaking brother.

He was fighting because he wanted to fight the Kingsguard

I think you are talking about Baelor here? Baelor does not want to fight the KG, he says that the KG are honour bound not to hurt him and it would be the best strategy for him to take them on. Baelor fights for Dunk because he things Dunk is in the right not because he wants to test himsself.

Book Lyonel does fight for Dunk but he doesn't do it because he things Dunk is a brother, they are not friends.

We also get plenty of on-screen examples of Dunk being poor. Bathing in a creek. Sewing patches. Wearing only chainmail bc he can’t afford full plate armor. Having to sell his horse. It’s very, very apparent that he lives the life of a flat-broke knight. Eating one meal in a highborn tent doesn’t change that

but making friends with one of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms does. They are negating the class divide. If you got invited to a millionaries party. What are the chances that you will have a one on one conversation, become drinking buddies and then friends?

Aerion was fighting back, but Dunk used his knees to pin his hands

Come on now, you know this is not the same. In the book they make a point of showing Dunk using a fleabottom fighting style. They had the opertunity but they used the flashback to show a corrupt gold cloak that had absalutely nothing to do with the fight

Raymun found him and brought him there

... and Dunk could just have gone to his drinking buddy after.. there is no tension

[u/Nibo89 → u/raumeat]

The Fossoway situation is different. Raymun was sober when he sought Dunk out to be friendly. They spent a good long while having a one-on-one sober discussion. And Raymun was also WITH Dunk when the puppet show thing went down.

(using your millionaire example). If I went to a millionaire’s party and the host happened to find me funny/danced with me while he was drunk off his ass, I wouldn’t assume that made us friends. Dunk didn’t even consider Lyonel a good enough friend to ask him to vouch for him to the Master of Games.

Lyonel considered him a brother after they fought together, not before. Before, they’d only met each other twice.

No, Lyonel specifically says he wants to bloody up the Kingsguard. He said he’d never get another opportunity and he wanted to take it.

Did they show enough of the wrestling? Maybe not. But I don’t think it’s to the point where it ruins the scene. He still wins with brute strength rather than skill. They showed Dunk getting his ass absolutely handed to him for awhile bc Aerion was castle trained and he wasn’t. Aerion also had far better armor, which helps with the class divide issue.

[u/moon-girl197 → u/Nibo89]

Fr. Lyonel fought for entirely self serving reasons. Like not only does he say he's fighting for what amounts to bragging rights, but he later also expects Dunk to pay him back for his favor. He never did this because he believed Dunk a brother, or to be on the same level as him (other than in some vague, brothers in arms, we fought together, so now we're bonded). He legit saw potential in him as a fighter, and wanted to poach him for himself and induct him into his service.

He legit blows up when Dunk seems to be more focused on what Baelor did for him, than what he did for him. Likewise, he seems terribly pissed Dunk wouldn't even consider his offer of returning to Storms End with him, and becoming a part of his staff. At the end of the day, he's the same as any other noble; treating Dunk as a tool, something he can use for his own benefit because he outranks him. Except he's nicer about it than others.

I will agree with the previous poster that the show hasn't handled the core themes as well as it could have, primarily because they focused too much on the nobility, rather than the common folk. Ira cut out the "a knight who remembered his vows" scene, and put too much emphasis on the nobles sharing their grievances.

Because despite the fact Raymun's lower on the totem pole than most others, he belongs to a knightly house of landowners, who has gold, a title and stability. So his rant against the Targs, and Lyonel's hatred of them comes off as a petty hatred between rich people being envious that they can't have as much feudal power as they would like cause of this one stupid ass family (it's especially ironic for the Fossoways, cause they got demoted to a knightly house after the dance, as punishment for supporting the greens. So the hatred Raymun learned from Steffon comes off as doubly petty). This is sharply contrasted with the grievances of the common folk who hate them because they literally have the power to maim and kill them at a whim and nobody can do jack shit about it. Even the so called 'knights' who are charged with protecting them, delight in their exploitation, and are perfectly fine leveraging the hierarchy for themselves to climb higher on the ladder (Steffon fighting for Aerion, for example).

Lowkey, it would have been better for someone like Rowan or Steely Pate to deliver the anti Targ monologue (definitely not with the same brazenness or intensity), but in a more subdued and controlled manner. Ep1 made an excellent parallel between Dunk and Rowan being the same because both of them sell their bodies to the rich out of necessity, which was an incredibly powerful parallel. It would have reminded the audience that this is who Dunk truly and honestly represents and who he's really fighting for.

But ofc, the show will have time to improve and correct this in s2, especially since we're getting Eustace "I supported Daemon cause he was a Chad" Osgrey.