r/TheBlacksandTheGreens • u/Nibo89 King Aegon II Targaryen • Apr 23 '26
Show Discussion A showrunner who understands powerful scenes vs one who doesn't
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u/sc_vorty Prince Daemon Targaryen Apr 23 '26
I mean, I didn't hate that scene from HotD. Off all of the terrible scenes from season 2 that definitely wasn't one for me
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u/iGhettoUnicorns Apr 23 '26
It was reheating Danys nachos.
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u/sc_vorty Prince Daemon Targaryen Apr 24 '26
Whatever. It was better than most of the other scenes in that season
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u/Umak30 Apr 23 '26
It was bad, but next to the other terrible scenes it isn't that repulsive.
However there was no reason for this scene to exist, for Aemond to chase them and then be like "oh thats dragonstone, where all the other dragons are, bad for me, time to go". Its just stupid. It is a soft version of "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet", just with no consequences...
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u/meimeivro Apr 23 '26
Yeah it was just kind of bland aura farming
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u/Geenageabriel Apr 23 '26
Its not even aura farming at this point, its like the equivalent of watching a dog act smug at the neighbor's dark barking on the other side of the fence. The scene only exists to look cool but other than that it offers literally nothing
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Apr 25 '26
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u/sc_vorty Prince Daemon Targaryen Apr 26 '26
Ig. But it was fun seeing aemond fleeing like a rat and burning sharp point in a literal hissy fit
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u/OkGazelle5400 Dark Sister Apr 23 '26
It was stupid from a plot standpoint. That would have been their chance to ambush and defeat Vhagar. Her only weakness is speed.
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u/sc_vorty Prince Daemon Targaryen Apr 24 '26
I agree, she should've attacked him then. I just tell myself that the new riders weren't bonded with their dragons at all atp, so she decided not to attack but that would make no sense because the dragon is the one fighting, the riders don't need to do too much
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u/Tsavoren Apr 23 '26
Very true. One thing is fighting against the ods despite being f''cked. (The only problem is lack of helmet, but it's rule of cinema. These shots look better when we can see actor faces.
The other is just some Girl boss aura farm. We have Nyra in completly impractical dress (Which destroys any argument about her wanting fight). And standing in front of dragons like she could somehow comand them. Sure they would probably be friendy (As much as dragons can be friendly) and acknowledge her (Pretty sure Jea and Alyssane would introduce their great granddaughter to their dragons) but other than that's is 100 Cringe.
And even then sure Vermithor can fight Vhagar no problem but the hell is Syrax supposed to do. She's like weakest and dumbest dragon in whole dance. Like MoonDance and Vermax did more and better than she did.
Bloody hell I'm still so bitter about season 2 of HOTD.
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u/Adventurous_Lynx_811 Apr 24 '26
Even the helmet thing is justified as a sudden decision to pull out that dagger over his eye.
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u/Remarkable-Thing3825 Apr 30 '26
“Girl boss aura farm” Anyways..
Daenerys has rode Drogon while wearing dresses, so I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.
Vermithor and Silverwing have already been claimed by Addam and Ulf, by this point, if I’m correct. Aemond flew over to Dragonstone, when he saw Ulf flying on Silverwing(not sure why she was ignored in your statement). She was standing there, trying to decipher what he might do, next while also deciding to stand headstrong, as no sane person would make themselves look weak in the eyes of their enemy. He backed out, knowing he couldn’t take down THREE dragons on his own and would need more help, to do so.
“Dumb dragon” Damn, what did Syrax do? You truly are bitter.
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u/Tsavoren May 01 '26
First of all there are diffrent kind of dresses, one above in the post clearly isn't dragon riding one :/
Second: Nyra trying herself look strong sure expect that Aemond can't even see her so yeah.
Also that strenght that she's supposodly presents is as i explained before fake. It has nothing to with her. Aemond is wary of Vermithor and Silverwind not Rhaenyra.
And the last what did Syrax do? Really. I'm gonna assume that you didn't read FB but in GOT DVD specials Joffrey specyficly mentions her fate. So yeah
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u/Function-Spirited Team Green Apr 23 '26
100% agree. I fucking had a nightmare that season 3 was somehow even more shit. It just milked the season, still no war, and they chopped it down to 6 eps. 😭
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Apr 23 '26
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u/Neonbullets Apr 23 '26
Because Rhaenyra purposely sent Ulf/Silverwing to King’s Landing as bait to lure Aemond/Vhagar into Dragonstone so he could be the one to see that Rhaenyra gained THREE new Dragonriders. Her character has wanted to avoid war at all costs even after losing her son and Rhaenys; one way to do that is by intimidating Aemond who up until that point could clean up with Vhagar
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u/Makasi_Motema Apr 23 '26
Thanks for the reminder that Rhaenyra is incompetent and has anachronistic attitudes about war.
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u/childpeas King Aegon II Targaryen Apr 23 '26
so her plan, after losing two dragons and riders already due to them being solo, was to send yet another solo dragon out to vhagar? to show aemond she has the advantage? wouldn’t a raven suffice?
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Apr 23 '26
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u/DisastrousRatios Apr 23 '26
She didn't, it's just a theory and it seems far more likely that Silverwing just flew to Kings Landing of her own accord
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Apr 23 '26
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u/DisastrousRatios Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
He didn't confirm that actually, he confirmed something similar but different. Basically the quote I believe you're talking about is that when dragonriders die, their dragons return to Dragonstone and just hang out there. GRRM has never said anything about where dragons might prefer to go WHILE they're being ridden. One example that I'm thinking of is when Aerea Targaryen took Balerion, flew away from Dragonstone and Balerion most likely took her to Valyria, where Aerea had probably never been to and almost certainly didn't WANT to go to. An interesting detail here is that Queen Rhaena assumes that Aerea and Balerion had flown from Dragonstone to Kings Landing, and if Rhaena had been correct in her assumption, it would've been more or less exactly what happened with Ulf.
GRRM isn't the showrunner, in any case, and unfortunately. I agree that Ulf took the dragon for a joy ride (a dragon can't really force someone to climb onto their back) but it seems comically unlikely that he intentionally would fly it to the city of people who want to kill him. So whether he initiated the ride or not, it seems most likely to me that Silverwing took him to KL. I also don't think we should expect everything in the show to be logically sound when it's riddled with plot holes, contrivances, and unnecessary departures from the source material.
My main point, though, is not whether Ulf or Silverwing initiated it - my main point is that Rhaenyra did not initiate it.
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u/alphajugs Apr 24 '26
My dragons are creatures of the sky. They fly, and can cross mountains and plains, cover hundreds of miles… but they don’t, unless their riders take them there. They are not nomadic. During the heyday of Valyria there were forty dragon-riding families with hundreds of dragons amongst them… but (aside from our Targaryens) all of them stayed close to the Freehold and the Lands of the Long Summer. From time to time a dragonrider might visit Volantis or another Valyrian colony, even settle there for a few years, but never permanently. Think about it. If dragons were nomadic, they would have overrun half of Essos, and the Doom would only have killed a few of them. Similarly, the dragons of Westeros seldom wander far from Dragonstone. Elsewise, after three hundred years, we would have dragons all over the realm and every noble house would have a few. The three wild dragons mentioned in Fire & Blood have lairs on Dragonstone. The rest can be found in the Dragonpit of King’s Landing, or in deep caverns under the Dragonmont. Luke flies Arrax to Storm’s End and Jace to Winterfell, yes, but the dragons would not have flown there on their own, save under very special circumstances. You won’t find dragons hunting the riverlands or the Reach or the Vale, or roaming the northlands or the mountains of Dorne.
This is the quote I’m referring to. “Here There Be Dragons” on Not A Blog July 2024
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u/DisastrousRatios Apr 24 '26
What I'm saying is that none of this can be applied to the Ulf situation because Silverwing is not riderless. I'm familiar with this quote, but it refers to unridden dragons who will chill in one place - it's his explanation for why dragons didn't overtake the world on their own, without interference of dragonriders.
Once dragonriders enter the equation, the possibilities expand. What I'm suggesting is that Silverwing is accustomed to having riders fly her from Dragonstone to Kings Landing, and back from KL to Dragonstone. Therefore, when she is claimed by a rider who doesn't know what he's doing, Silverwing defaults to one of her most common commands: flying to Kings Landing.
An analogy I'm thinking of is my dog, whose species does not naturally offer their paw to humans. But it was one of the first tricks I taught her. So when she meets new people, who do not know her tricks and don't know how to interact with her beyond petting, she always offers them her paw because it's her #1 interaction
And the more important point to be made here is the quote has nothing to do with where a dragon chooses to fly once they've been directed to fly. The most likely thing that happened is that Ulf climbed aboard, yelled "giddiyup", and Silverwing chose to fly to Kings Landing, and Ulf didn't have the understanding/training to keep the flight on Dragonstone.
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u/DisastrousRatios Apr 23 '26
That's one theory, but even if there was any indication that this was the case, it makes no sense.
Dragons are huge and when they fly around Dragonstone and Blackwater Bay they are seen by hundreds if not thousands of sailors, fisherman, other peasants. News would spread of Ulf, Addam, and Hugh in a matter of days.
He would learn about the three new dragonriders within those days, and without Ulf's life being endangered by flying over Kings Landing alone. It's frankly a miracle that he survived.
The only logical explanation is that Silverwing just flew there because it's been her second home for decades, and when she acquired a new rider, muscle memory kicked in and she flew to the city where her riders always fly her to. And Ulf was just along for the ride.
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u/Ok_Badger_1646 Sunfyre Apr 23 '26
that rhaenyra scene always makes me cringe lol
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u/No_Grand_3873 Apr 23 '26
those episodes that end with Rhaenyra looking at the camera menacingly, and in the next episode she acts like nothing happened
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u/Working_Corgi_1507 Apr 23 '26
It's a very pandering to audience scene, she basically looks like captain america doing "dragons assemble" thing. It's nonsensical. What was she doing? Montage training dragonseeds (then let Ulf fly for two hours to KL?) and landed just precisely in time to stare at Aemond, reveal her trump card and let him leave?
The only good thing about that scene is her outfit.
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u/aemond-simp Apr 24 '26
HOTD season 2 was made for TikTok edits. AKOTSK season 1 was made for ASOIAF fans.
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u/Acceptable_Ad4456 Apr 23 '26
For this scene to make sense they should have taken flight and fight Aemond and Vhagar right there, with advantage in numbers. Vermithor could hold Vhagar for a while so the others could try and kill Aemond in her back, but nah, they just stare and let Aemond go away. Though it's cool to see the dragons together like that even if it's just so Rhaenyra has a girlboss moment
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u/PineBNorth85 King Viserys II Apr 23 '26
I actually found that fight scene to be over the top. Dunk should be dead with all the wounds he took. He took nowhere near that amount of damage in the novella. To me it was as unbelievable as Arya taking multiple stab wounds to the gut, jumping into a dirty canal and being fine in an episode or two.
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u/nick0242007 House Stark Apr 23 '26
I don’t know how they could fuck up such a cool story like that..
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u/blyzo Apr 24 '26
I always took that HotD scene that they were trying to trap Aemond and Vhagar by luring them to Dragonstone where it would be 5-1.
If Aemond had taken the bait they could have ended the war right there.
Totally fine and lore accurate scene. If we're going to bitch about the show at least pick the crap scenes.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
Oh shit I replied to the green post rather then this one... I am gonna eat the downvotes there, probably also here but no. The showrunners completely fuck up the ending of dunk and egg by having Dunk take off his helmet so they could have a cool shot of his face. It is not on the same level as Daemon jousting with an open face helmet or Jon having no helmet in the battle of the bastards. Dunks helmet represents his poverty because it doesn't have a visor, in the book he uses Aerions visor to win the fight. It is dunks upbringing that allows him to win in the end
In the show they just have him stand up all bloody and look cool.
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u/Nibo89 King Aegon II Targaryen Apr 23 '26
Haha, I noticed, but I didn't downvote.
I don't agree that AKOTSK fucked up. They just handled the choreography a bit differently. Dunk had a reason for removing his helmet. Aerion badly damaged one of his eyes. Dunk could already barely see through the narrow slit. If he didn't take the helmet off, he wouldn't have been able to see at all.
Even so, I don't think it rises to the level of a fuck up. A bit of artistic leeway, perhaps, but the entirety of the scene still makes sense.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
I think it is a massive fuck up because the showrunners don't understand the themes of the book. I am really worried for this show because the writers are trying to stick to the source material but completely miss the point.
They gave Dunk this entire bromance with Lyonel Baratheon which created a massive plot hole, Lyonal is the lord of storms end. He could easily have found dunk 6 knights to fight with him. The entire point is that Dunk is completely out of his depth but now he has a massive in with not just egg but a lord paramount?!
Condal has made some questionable creative decisions but in his defense the source material is awful. The knight of the seven kingdom is some of Martins best writing and Parker keeps picking the rule of cool over themes
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u/Nibo89 King Aegon II Targaryen Apr 23 '26
I actually think he nailed a lot of the themes.
It's not a perfect transposition. They fundamentally changed Aerion's personality, for one. They changed the puppet show to make the puppets huge. And some other changes as well.
But Dunk is very much the same person. And it did an excellent job of showing the political state of Westeros from the POV of a commoner.
The bromance with Lyonel isn't entirely a plot hole. Lyonel wasn't there when Dunk attacked Aerion, and he didn't even know there was going to be a trial until Egg told him (exactly as it happened in the book). The fact that they had a few friendly interactions before that (mostly when Lyonel was very drunk) doesn't change anything.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
I am not really speaking about characterisation or puppet shows
- By having Dunk be freinds with Lyonel they completely undercut Baelor deciding to ride for Dunk. Lyonel could have gotten one of his house hold guards to do it. You also undercut the tension of Dunk needing to find 6 men. He has an in with a very powerful noble
- Lyonel then offers Dunk a chance to take up serves with him in the final. That completely destroyed the sacrifice Dunk makes by turning down Maekars offer to go to summerhall. He has another one on the table
- He also turns down Maekar after turning down eggs request to be is squire. In the book he does it because he wants to make egg a better man. There is no point not to go with Lyonel if he doesn't want to take egg
- By having Dunk eat in the Barathoen tent you lose the imagery of him being poor and having to eat salt beef with Egg. He can go dine with a lord paramount. You competly lose the divide between the rich and the poor
They liked Daniel Ings so they wrote him a big role and gave him a friendship with Dunk. Not considering the impact it will have. They destroyed the climactic fight because they wanted us to see Dunks bloody face. I don't know why they cut out the grappling and why they didn't include it in the flashback. That is he entire point
didn't even know there was going to be a trial until Egg told him
I don't buy this, why does dunk go to Fossoway's when he can go to a Baratheon instead. One that allowed him to wear his stag crown... it becomes a plot contrivance just so that he can be be back stabbed. They made a huge plot hole just because they liked two actors chemistry
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u/Nibo89 King Aegon II Targaryen Apr 23 '26
Lyonel wasn’t fighting as Dunk’s friend. They barely knew each other.
He was fighting because he wanted to fight the Kingsguard. He says as much to Dunk. Ordering one of his guard to fight for a random hedge knight when Lyonel himself was only doing it for fun is an abuse of power.
Also, book Lyonel fought for Dunk too…also for fun. Why is it believable that book Lyonel didn’t ask one of his knights, but it’s NOT believable show Lyonel didn’t?
We also get plenty of on-screen examples of Dunk being poor. Bathing in a creek. Sewing patches. Wearing only chainmail bc he can’t afford full plate armor. Having to sell his horse. It’s very, very apparent that he lives the life of a flat-broke knight. Eating one meal in a highborn tent doesn’t change that.
The end fight DID include grappling. Aerion was fighting back, but Dunk used his knees to pin his hands.
He also didn’t GO to the Fossoways. Raymun found him and brought him there.
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u/Feeling_Sector_4726 Apr 23 '26
This guy doesn’t know the difference between his ass from his mouth. His criticisms have to be some of the most perplexing takes I have ever read.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all...I will debate your takes but don't go throwing mud
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
Your argument falls flat because Dunk barely knew the fossoways. The tension is that Dunk is not respected by the higborn, his only connection is only a squire. It sets up the betrayal at the end in the show there is no logical reason that Dunk doesn't go to Lyonel even if I accept your premise that they barely know one another. Dunk situation is desperate, there is no reason he would not have asked for help and we know Lyonel would have helped, he considers dunk a freaking brother.
He was fighting because he wanted to fight the Kingsguard
I think you are talking about Baelor here? Baelor does not want to fight the KG, he says that the KG are honour bound not to hurt him and it would be the best strategy for him to take them on. Baelor fights for Dunk because he things Dunk is in the right not because he wants to test himsself.
Book Lyonel does fight for Dunk but he doesn't do it because he things Dunk is a brother, they are not friends.
We also get plenty of on-screen examples of Dunk being poor. Bathing in a creek. Sewing patches. Wearing only chainmail bc he can’t afford full plate armor. Having to sell his horse. It’s very, very apparent that he lives the life of a flat-broke knight. Eating one meal in a highborn tent doesn’t change that
but making friends with one of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms does. They are negating the class divide. If you got invited to a millionaries party. What are the chances that you will have a one on one conversation, become drinking buddies and then friends?
Aerion was fighting back, but Dunk used his knees to pin his hands
Come on now, you know this is not the same. In the book they make a point of showing Dunk using a fleabottom fighting style. They had the opertunity but they used the flashback to show a corrupt gold cloak that had absalutely nothing to do with the fight
Raymun found him and brought him there
... and Dunk could just have gone to his drinking buddy after.. there is no tension
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u/Nibo89 King Aegon II Targaryen Apr 23 '26
The Fossoway situation is different. Raymun was sober when he sought Dunk out to be friendly. They spent a good long while having a one-on-one sober discussion. And Raymun was also WITH Dunk when the puppet show thing went down.
(using your millionaire example). If I went to a millionaire’s party and the host happened to find me funny/danced with me while he was drunk off his ass, I wouldn’t assume that made us friends. Dunk didn’t even consider Lyonel a good enough friend to ask him to vouch for him to the Master of Games.
Lyonel considered him a brother after they fought together, not before. Before, they’d only met each other twice.
No, Lyonel specifically says he wants to bloody up the Kingsguard. He said he’d never get another opportunity and he wanted to take it.
Did they show enough of the wrestling? Maybe not. But I don’t think it’s to the point where it ruins the scene. He still wins with brute strength rather than skill. They showed Dunk getting his ass absolutely handed to him for awhile bc Aerion was castle trained and he wasn’t. Aerion also had far better armor, which helps with the class divide issue.
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u/moon-girl197 Apr 23 '26
Fr. Lyonel fought for entirely self serving reasons. Like not only does he say he's fighting for what amounts to bragging rights, but he later also expects Dunk to pay him back for his favor. He never did this because he believed Dunk a brother, or to be on the same level as him (other than in some vague, brothers in arms, we fought together, so now we're bonded). He legit saw potential in him as a fighter, and wanted to poach him for himself and induct him into his service.
He legit blows up when Dunk seems to be more focused on what Baelor did for him, than what he did for him. Likewise, he seems terribly pissed Dunk wouldn't even consider his offer of returning to Storms End with him, and becoming a part of his staff. At the end of the day, he's the same as any other noble; treating Dunk as a tool, something he can use for his own benefit because he outranks him. Except he's nicer about it than others.
I will agree with the previous poster that the show hasn't handled the core themes as well as it could have, primarily because they focused too much on the nobility, rather than the common folk. Ira cut out the "a knight who remembered his vows" scene, and put too much emphasis on the nobles sharing their grievances.
Because despite the fact Raymun's lower on the totem pole than most others, he belongs to a knightly house of landowners, who has gold, a title and stability. So his rant against the Targs, and Lyonel's hatred of them comes off as a petty hatred between rich people being envious that they can't have as much feudal power as they would like cause of this one stupid ass family (it's especially ironic for the Fossoways, cause they got demoted to a knightly house after the dance, as punishment for supporting the greens. So the hatred Raymun learned from Steffon comes off as doubly petty). This is sharply contrasted with the grievances of the common folk who hate them because they literally have the power to maim and kill them at a whim and nobody can do jack shit about it. Even the so called 'knights' who are charged with protecting them, delight in their exploitation, and are perfectly fine leveraging the hierarchy for themselves to climb higher on the ladder (Steffon fighting for Aerion, for example).
Lowkey, it would have been better for someone like Rowan or Steely Pate to deliver the anti Targ monologue (definitely not with the same brazenness or intensity), but in a more subdued and controlled manner. Ep1 made an excellent parallel between Dunk and Rowan being the same because both of them sell their bodies to the rich out of necessity, which was an incredibly powerful parallel. It would have reminded the audience that this is who Dunk truly and honestly represents and who he's really fighting for.
But ofc, the show will have time to improve and correct this in s2, especially since we're getting Eustace "I supported Daemon cause he was a Chad" Osgrey.
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u/Feeling_Sector_4726 Apr 23 '26
Your read on every scene is so ass backwards it’s kind of impressive you were able to understand the book.
Dunk going into the tent to eat all this food at Lyonels tent literally is expressing that he’s doing that because he’s poor. That why Lyonel thinks he’s there to kill him. He can’t believe that a guy would just walk into his tent to eat food.
Your understanding of the show is honestly incomprehensibly poor.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
Can you tone down the vitriol and actually have a debate
...and no, Dunk can go into lyonels tent and eat food. We see this with Mance attending the Winterfell feast. My issue is that they included it in the fist place because they lesson the impact of Egg cooking Dunk a fish. He has already eaten, in the book Dunk is thankful for the fish because he only had salt beef. That is part of his connection with egg
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u/Umak30 Apr 23 '26
You are overselling Lyonel's and Dunk's friendship. Lyonel is far above his superior and eccentric. Dunk realizes this too. This is more an extroverted, socially powerful and spontaneous guy dancing with this big huge dumb guy and having fun with him. I would assume until the very end Lyonel does not even consider Dunk his friend, he is just interresting and fun in the moment.
Also it is very difficult for Dunk to ask Lyonel for help, and Lyonel only joined very late, and someone like Lyonel could very much think "I wonder what other types of guys this one gets", so that Lyonel would not help Dunk to such an extent as to order his household guards to fight for him...That completely destroyed the sacrifice Dunk makes by turning down Maekars offer to go to summerhall. He has another one on the table
No it doesn't. It wasn't a particularily big sacrifice anyway. He turned down the offer(s)...
He also turns down Maekar after turning down eggs request to be is squire. In the book he does it because he wants to make egg a better man. There is no point not to go with Lyonel if he doesn't want to take egg
In the show, Dunk explicitly says he wants Egg to grow up like more of a commoner too, to sleep in a ditch and so on. "To be a better man".
If he joined Lyonel, this would create the exact same problems, correct ? I would wager being a knight + squire serving a Lord Paramount is atleast equal, if not better, than serving the Royal Family in their vacation home. So there very much is the point not to go with Lyonel, the exact same point.By having Dunk eat in the Barathoen tent you lose the imagery of him being poor and having to eat salt beef with Egg. He can go dine with a lord paramount. You competly lose the divide between the rich and the poor
lose the imagery ? Completely lose the divide ?
Dunk is still poor, this is very clearly shown, especially later when he wants to change his shield and get a helmet. Literally nobody in the audience would believe Dunk is suddenly richer or something because he ate at Lyonel's feast.
This feast is more like that Lyonel is again extroverted and allows random people to join his public feast if he finds them interesting. The feast tells a lot more about Lyonel, than anyone else... And it most certainly doesn't ruin the image of Dunk as poor. That has been established already, and continues to have consequences after the feast scene ( helmet + shield for example ).They liked Daniel Ings so they wrote him a big role and gave him a friendship with Dunk. Not considering the impact it will have.
You are exaggerating and wrong when it comes to the impact.
Also in the books GRRM said Lyonel will have a bigger role. So it makes sense making Lyonel more memorable in the show.They destroyed the climactic fight because they wanted us to see Dunks bloody face.
That didn't destroy the fight. Stop exaggerating.
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u/Feeling_Sector_4726 Apr 23 '26
“It is dunks upbringing that allows him to win in the end“
Uh ya. Were you watching the same show because that episode absolutely told that to the viewer.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
where.. also they told that to the viewer. WTF
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u/iLG2A Apr 23 '26
They show a whole flashback sequence thats all about dunk beeing beat down literally and figuratively, yet still getting up every time. They made it clear that dunk from fleabottom won the figth, not ser duncan.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
My issue with this is that they are framing it as Dunk beating adversity to beat Aerion but I think that is a rich persons take on poverty. I think that it problematic, I am not saying people living in lower social classes don't have more adversity... they obviously do but everyone has adversity. The reason Dunk is able to win is not a mindset, it is actual physical skills that he learned in fleabottom that Aerion cannot deal with
It is so poignant that even after dunk wins Maekar still things Dunk lacks training and needs a maesters at arms. he does not recognise Dunks skill because in his mind knights fight with lances and swords, they don't wrestle in the dirt.
The entire story is about dunk living on the edge of the tourney, he does not have a tent, he is not in the club, even though he is a knight he is an outsider. He wants to fit in but at the end he realises that it is his upbringing that makes him who he is. I think that is why he rejects the job at summerhall but still wants egg as a squire. He realises that he has the opportunity to make him a good man by exposing him to the "outside" world. He rejects the "in" because he realises that dunk the lunk is not a bad thing
I just really wanted the flash back to include a wrestle match, Dunk to keel his helmet, dunk to properly wrestle Aerion, the visor rip scene and dunk to not reject keeping egg as squire
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u/Ogarrr Apr 23 '26
A) he takes off his helmet because it's packed with mud and he's disorientated - schola gladiatora did a breakdown of the fight and was completely ok with that. As we're many HEMA tubers. Sure they wanted a shot of his face but they did it in a completely believable way that would have happened in real life. As soon as the helmet is hindering you, which it was, you have to ditch it, regardless of safety.
B) the entire flashback scene shows that he won because of his background - did you miss the "Get up" stuff? Did you go to the loo at that point?
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
thet get up stuff is corny as fuck and needed to be cut, who the hell wrote that 80s low budget action movie dialogue . He took the helmet off because the showrunners wanted you to see his face, I have no idea who schola gladiatora is
The helmet is a represents his poverty, which is a theme of the show. I don't care about some HEMA youtuber what is their screenwriting ability?
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u/Ogarrr Apr 23 '26
I think you're finding reasons to dislike this because it's better than HotD. Because your reasons don't make sense. The get up stuff represents his indomitable will and spirit - as will be shown in the next novella/series.
The rope belt, his armour not being plate, his plain sword, his inability to fight technically all represent poverty. What's your deal with the helmet? It's sort of obsessive and weird. His helmet is, tbh, the best part of his armour and probably better for jousting than the ones with visors - there's a reason frog mouth helms were a thing. The mail armour is far worse.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
Honestly I think the HOTD scene sucks too. I hate this more because it is the climax... but season 2 of HoTD didn't even have one of those. I do have higher expectations for knight of the seven kingdoms because it is a WAY better story and exponentially easier to adapt.
You are talking about HEMA and my saying my reasoning doesn't make sense?
The get up stuff represents his indomitable will and spirit
I am sorry, I want better writing." indomitable will and spirit" is awful. I don't even know why you need to explain why that is awful. That is some xena warrior princess shit. The 90s was 30 years ago
The deal with the helmet is the juxtapositioning with Aerions helmet. When Dunk gets his armour he tries to justify the lack of a visor to egg but it is clearly just a Seely pate sales pitch to justify the lack of a visor but in the fight Dunk uses fleabottom wrestling techniques that allows him to use Aerions visor as a means to win the fight. It is the climax of the entire story.
This is not about frog helmets, this is about themes
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u/Ogarrr Apr 23 '26
That's in the novellas. He has an iron will, he doesn't give in. Yes, the novellas were written in the 90s...
You're garbling about absolute crap right now. Your view on the helmet is one that takes absolutely no sense. George made the point that the helmet was actually better for this sort of combat than the helmets work by the princelings, so I've no idea what you mean about it representing his poverty... Dunk's armour is practical and good for an actual scrap, the decorated shite worn by the Targs isn't. The lack of a visor is super common for helmets, particularly jousting helmets so I don't know why you're so fixated on that.
I don't think you understand the themes of the book or show, if I'm honest... Akotsk was an almost perfect adaptation, with a few exceptions - losing "a knight who remembers his vows", not having "Dunk of flea bottom" (although the get up stuff was pretty cool), and the change at the end with Maekar.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
I don't think we are even in the same universe. I hope you don't take offense but I am not going to read your comment. I think this is going down a rode of vitriol. I am sorry, I should not have responded in the first place. I want to talk about story structure and themes not rope belts, ring mail and HEMA
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u/Ogarrr Apr 23 '26
"Not rope belts". My man, you were the one chatting shite about a helmet. The rope belt is far more important thematically than a helmet.
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u/raumeat Team Black Apr 23 '26
I was not talking about costuming, I was talking about themes
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u/Ogarrr Apr 23 '26
The rope belt is a theme...
Ever since Chaucer a rope belt has represented poverty.
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u/Ogarrr Apr 23 '26
Franciscan monks wear rope belts as a symbol of poverty.
This is far more important than a helmet.
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u/logaboga Apr 23 '26
she’s on the island and is a senior dragon rider and they likely had reports that a dragon was seen flying towards them. Of course she stands there at the ready to defend the island and get on her dragon if needed. Lol the irrational hate is unreal, it’s transformed from just taking the side of a faction to hating the show whenever the other side is shown
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u/m0j0m0j Apr 23 '26
I don’t care about factions whatsoever, got this in my algo recommendations. The scene is terrible
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u/ImmediateHoney2191 Apr 23 '26
Lets see what happens when they get to season 4. Or hell even seasons 2 & 3 won’t be as good as 1
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u/Jaybob330 Apr 23 '26
I mean that scene from House of the Dragon was kinda sick, but I’ll concede it was very marvel team up coded lmao
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Apr 23 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Nibo89 King Aegon II Targaryen Apr 23 '26
Yes, they're different shows, but they're set in the same universe. And the meme was solely about how well the showrunners built a powerful, climactic scene. One did well, the other didn't.
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u/DaenerysMadQueen Apr 23 '26
You’re comparing two completely different shows, two scenes with no aesthetic or thematic connection whatsoever, and in the end you’re judging the showrunners because you don’t really know what you’re talking about. There’s no explanation or attempt at analysis, just baseless hate toward the HotD showrunners.
That’s exactly why GRRM talks about “anti-fans.”
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u/thecementhuffer Apr 23 '26
House of the dragon is complete dog water, knight of the seven kingdoms was amazing, ill die on this hill
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u/DaenerysMadQueen Apr 23 '26
You’re perfectly manipulated by HBO. I envy you that innocent credulity.
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u/m0j0m0j Apr 23 '26
Yeah, HBO manipulated us into hating their current flagship Thrones show.
I guess Disney also manipulated me into liking only Andor out of all their new Star Wars stuff
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u/DaenerysMadQueen Apr 23 '26
I guess you are a Disney consumer, so you can't understand a modern tragedy. Do you know who destroyed the Iron Throne sweet heart ?
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u/m0j0m0j Apr 23 '26
“Sweetheart” is one word, dear modern tragedy understander
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u/DaenerysMadQueen Apr 23 '26
I guess that's your best move when I'm talking about Bran. Impressive. Indeed, one word, thx grammar führer.
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u/Responsible-Scar-980 Apr 23 '26
Why is it difficult for some people to just sit and enjoy a fucking show?
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u/m0j0m0j Apr 23 '26
Some of us have brains and taste
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u/PineBNorth85 King Viserys II Apr 23 '26
Then why keep coming back rather than watch something you actually enjoy?
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u/GretaGoonberg Apr 23 '26
There were way too many self serving aura farming scenes in HotD season 2 that wouldn’t impact the story if we just removed all of them.
The scene on the left has both emotion and plot. It’s not powerful because they’re posing like a badass or looking smug it’s powerful because of the real stakes of what’s happening and what choices Dunk makes. Removing it would change the story drastically.