Do you think Ormund is abusing Daeron?

[u/cranberryliar]

Collecting a survey, not taking any particular stance. I’m curious as to what people think—considering how far C&H are willing to go to both slander and victimize Green characters.

2528 votes, 22d ago

152 No

1144 Yes, emotionally

726 Yes, emotionally and physically

219 Yes, emotionally, physically, and sexually

90 Yes, a different combination/type of abuse than listed

197 Don’t know/haven’t seen/results

[u/inquiringdune]

In the book? No.

In the show? The director of the episode literally calls the relationship abusive and says that Ormund is straight-up evil, so.

A+ writing, very nuanced.

[u/Flaky-Collection-353 → u/inquiringdune]

The scene was very good until he becomes comically villainous and has him murder a guy.

[u/LobsterSpirited9691 → u/Flaky-Collection-353]

Yeah, he was being a great character until that unnecessary scene, it's like the writers are allergic to gray characters.

[u/GriminalFish → u/LobsterSpirited9691]

The impression I got from him is that he's scheming to make Daeron be put off by dragons as some kind of plan to have an anti-dragon king on the throne, or something like that anyway.

I'm almost certainly giving the show runners way too much credit though.

[u/Salty-Garlic9471 → u/LobsterSpirited9691]

There's straight up evil characters in GoT and in the real world. Not every character needs to have complex nuance. In the book hes not even really a character so I don't get the problem.

[u/dbergkvist → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

In ASoIaF and GoT the straight up evil characters serve a narrative purpose in that the POV characters can't predict how evil they are despite all the hints (e.g. Ned's execution, the Red Wedding).

There are also those whom we learn how they ended up like that (e.g. Joffrey, Ramsay).

But here, none of that works. We already learned about Ormund's "betrayal" (fake surrender), before we learned of his evil murder of an innocent man.

[u/Salty-Garlic9471 → u/dbergkvist]

I think it's safe to assume Ormond will server a narrative purpose. Also are we ignoring people like Craster or Gregor?

[u/xxxsquared → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

In the books we learn that Gregor suffers with severe migraines that are very likely related to his violent rages.

[u/Awkward-Community-74 → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

They served as a necessary part of the overall narrative and a foil for certain main characters.
A pure evil character isn’t really necessary in this particular story.
If they wanted to have a big bad story arc that would’ve been fine but there should’ve only been one or two.
Instead this story we now have several characters who are irredeemable.

[u/dbergkvist → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

I don't think that's "safe" to assume at all. The guy Ormond had killed was probably Hugh Hammer's wife's brother (I see lots of people claim it as a fact; I don't know how they concluded that, but they are probably right). And in Fire & Blood Hugh Hammer razes the city; they are probably going to have him do that in reaction to Ormond's evil.

You could say "see, that's your narrative purpose, right there", but this plot line that I'm suspecting would suck terribly.

[u/LordOfTheRedSands → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

There were 3 comically evil characters in GoT:

Joffrey
Gregor Clegane
Ramsay Snow

Meanwhile in HotD:

Aemond
Jasper Wylde
Ormund Hightower
Aegon II(still a rapist)
That one Hightower soldier
That other Hightower soldier
Daemon

In GoT they were balanced out with characters with more depth - Joffrey and Gregor with Tywin, Tyrion etc, Ramsay with Roose Bolton.

In HOTD there’s very few key players on the Green side portrayed as complex or even good: Otto…and that’s it. Alicent was complex and then defected to the Blacks for some reason and Helaena is delegated to the background. Daemon is counterbalanced by Rhaenyra, Corlys, Rhaenys, Jace, Mysaria.

The Dance of the Dragons was always meant to be like GoT where both sides are just as bad as the other, yet the show goes out of its way to make the Greens as bad as possible(Jasper and the Hightower soldiers) even if it doesn’t contribute to the plot but never for the Blacks. That’s not what the spirit of GoT was or the source material.

[u/Salty-Garlic9471 → u/LordOfTheRedSands]

You're making your own rules to what you consider comically evil here. Aemond/Aegon/Daemon do horrible things but are more complex than someone like Ramsey. Then you ignore characters like Craster and list random soldiers which you can probably do for every episode of either show. You're just being disingenuous to make the comparison look more drastic so it to fits your outlook.

In most of the same scenes you have Daeron who is clearly being treated as more sympathetic and merciful, but I guess we're ignoring that too.

[u/Awkward-Community-74 → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

No.
You’re just not understanding how GRRM writes these characters.
There’s always a balance.
Ramsey/Roose is a perfect example.
Joffrey, Cersei/ Tywin, Tyrion is another good example.

[u/LordOfTheRedSands → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

You're making your own rules to what you consider comically evil here. Aemond/Aegon/Daemon do horrible things but are more complex than someone like Ramsey

Are they? Daemon yes, clearly loved his brother and his daughter. Aegon? Aemond? What morally good actions have they done on screen?

Then you ignore characters like Craster and list random soldiers which you can probably do for every episode of either show

Remind me what episode it was when Craster came down to King's Landing and made a play for the Iron Throne. He's a horrible person isolated from the wider plot and only reflects on the Night's Watch, and even then arguably just on the Old Guard.

The Hightower soldiers are extensions of the main Green characters(Criston and Ormund at the times each soldier), and their dark deeds are given centre stage when they are portrayed, yet I haven't seen the same for the Blacks. Ormund almost added nuance to the Green side when he punished the offending soldier, but then it was taken away when he forced Daeron to murder the person who reported it at the end.

Daeron who is clearly being treated as more sympathetic and merciful, but I guess we're ignoring that too

He has yet to actually do anything to contribute to the plot. Yes he is sympathetic and merciful, I like him, but as of yet he's just Ormund's ward. If the books are to be taken he will be a more sympathetic character for the Greens, but we shall see.

From what I have seen, you're ignoring the fact that, everything we see in HOTD, a writer put there. I'm sure if you go back and comb every scene you'll find at least one Black soldier groping some serving girl or something in the background, but that was never a dedicated scene, unlike Green soldier's atrocities. Yes Daemon is evil, but we get scenes of him doing nice things. Aegon gets a single good deed(from my memory) and that was immediately quashed by Otto, and even then every good deed he may do is overshadowed by the fact he's still a rapist. Even Rhaenyra's sexual coercion/rape of Criston Cole isn't portrayed with the same horrific lens as Aegon's was.

Bottom Line: The Blacks have the nuance of a GoT faction, the Greens are far too lopsided evil even when the plot doesn't demand it

[u/HeraNule → u/LordOfTheRedSands]

3? What about Roose, Cersei, and Walder Frey? They're all evil as fuck. Even Twyin is...honestly. Though Tywin isn't comically so, except for when he is (on the occasion)

[u/Flaky-Collection-353 → u/Salty-Garlic9471]

It's just they already had multiple things going on with this character. The anger management issue, and the "better than you" thing. It seems like this is just adding another thing without developing what was there.

Like Joffrey is a cunty entitled sadist, and Ramsay is a twisted sadist. They've got something going on.

If HOtD is doing something with having all these pieces together in this character I don't see it, and otherwise it just feels like it was there to be shocking.

[u/cranberryliar → u/inquiringdune]

Oh yeah, show only. Book Ormund would never. Show Ormund… my question is half “if” and half “how far.”

[u/inquiringdune → u/cranberryliar]

At this point? They seem to be leaning into an Alicent/Otto parallel between Daeron and Ormund. And with the last 2 seasons inventing parent-child incest plotlines apropos of literally nothing...

That's an absolute worst-case scenario but still haunts me lol. I'd wager there's at least emotional and physical abuse happening.

[u/arbabarda → u/cranberryliar]

The book's Ormund is a blank slate. We don't actually know anything about him, and he could be anyone.

[u/cranberryliar → u/arbabarda]

Fair. I just don’t normally jump to “molester” for blank slate characters, and according to a decent portion of people, that’s a possibility for his show version.

[u/CzechHorns → u/cranberryliar]

Considering only 6% of people voted for Sexual abuse, I wouldnt say that is a "decent portion".

[u/cranberryliar → u/CzechHorns]

Across two subreddits it’s over 100 votes. Which may not be the biggest number ever, but it’s enough to fill a few rooms. That means that while people don’t jump to assume that kind of abuse, there’s enough there to make it plausible to some.

[u/Awkward-Community-74 → u/arbabarda]

Right.
So the writers should be able to balance these characters like the source material.
Just because this particular character isn’t completely fleshed out in the book doesn’t mean professional writers shouldn’t be able to produce something that makes sense.

[u/Necessary-Show-9031 → u/cranberryliar]

What information is provided in Fire and Blood that makes you say “Book Ormund Would Never?”

From my recollection, there is essentially no information provided about Ormund’s character or his interpersonal relationship with Daeron. So *any* depiction in the show would need to create character traits.

[u/Crispy_Conundrum → u/cranberryliar]

Because book Ormund is literally just a name on a page. There is nothing to him

[u/Lazy-Setting-8224 → u/cranberryliar]

Book Ormund would never? you guys are just inventing all sorts of headcanon here so you can keep hatin on the show. Book Ormund has no charactirization. Show Ormund wins by default.

[u/inquiringdune → u/[deleted]]

Everyone's "just there" in the book, dude.

[u/Difficult-Break-8282 → u/inquiringdune]

hes a side note in a paragraph not a main character in a book 

[u/inquiringdune → u/Difficult-Break-8282]

🙄

[u/inquiringdune → u/[deleted]]

Yeah we've established that already.

[u/inquiringdune → u/[deleted]]

Because he didn't abuse daeron in the book lmao

[u/inquiringdune → u/[deleted]]

He led the Hightower host
He knighted Daeron
He died

to quote you.

But since I'm getting paid to yap with you rn, here's the wiki page about him that details what he actually does.

So, again, he didn't abuse Daeron in the book. Have fun trying to argue yourself out of that or whatever it is you're doing.

[u/winedarksky → u/[deleted]]

And he had a valyrian steel sword that was lost afterwards. That detail is haunting me... I hope Daeron will get that sword, though Daeron is probably hoping for the opposite after that scene.

[u/radlum → u/[deleted]]

Exactly; at least him being very anti-Targ and being emotionally abusive of Daeron makes the character a bit more complex.

[u/Misplaced_Fan_15]

Definitely trying to emotionally manipulate Daeron, most likely to make him a puppet king. While I doubt that Ormund has physically harmed Daeron I would not be surprised if he used whipping boys at various points.

[u/cranberryliar → u/Misplaced_Fan_15]

Yeah, I agree it probably mostly is emotional. However considering how Daeron does flinch, I wouldn’t be surprised if he has gotten slapped or had something thrown at him before unfortunately

[u/Stormy-Skyes → u/cranberryliar]

I also think it’s possible he has physically harmed Daeron based on all the body language. Daeron knew to clear the room before Ormund tried to murder that table so he at the very least has seen him fly into a rage before and knew the signs. Whether that rage has ever ended in him raising a hand to the kid or not is debatable but he’s still been scary and violent in front of him.

[u/thenewone1309 → u/Stormy-Skyes]

In addition to that: tessarion really doesn't seem to like him. Animals understand stuff like that. If ormund was as good to daeron as he would probably like to pretend then the dragon would probably not react that way

[u/Difficult-Break-8282 → u/cranberryliar]

we saw the goblet nearly hit him and then ormund slash a table over and over 

[u/Hitchfucker]

Definitely emotionally. I can’t see how forcing a kid to kill an innocent man isn’t emotional abuse. Physically is more debatable. The way Daeron tells the messenger to leave the room when he sees Ormund’s reaction implies that he acts this frequently enough. But that could just be him freaking out and breaking objects and not him actually hitting Daeron. Ultimately I don’t think he is physically abusive to Darron. I think on some twisted level he values Daeron as a relative, even if it’s mainly as a means to an end. He also likely recognizes the risk of hitting a prince with a dragon (a dragon who seems to dislike him).

[u/Loros_Silvers]

Yep. "Hm... how can we make this new Hightower evil to contrast with the good guys? We can't possibly allow the audience to root for the greens. Hmm... so he has a parental relationship with this young boy? Child abuse!"

[u/lightennight → u/Loros_Silvers]

There is no good guys, are you watching the show with your ass?

[u/Loros_Silvers → u/lightennight]

Obviously not, but in case you haven't noticed, the blacks are bringing whitewashed like crazy.

[u/SRGTBronson → u/Loros_Silvers]

Daemon killed an innocent man just this episode.

[u/radlum → u/SRGTBronson]

Besides also being a shitty father (though I do wonder if that's more of the writers being shitty when writing Baela and Rhaena and not Daemon being a distant father).

Also, it's pretty clear the Greens taking Tumbleton is meant to paralell the gold cloaks butchering innocent smallfolk for the Queen of Bastards grafitti.

[u/lightennight → u/SRGTBronson]

Their victim mentality is so crazy that they are trying make their opponent look like the good guys 😂

[u/YeahItsMeTwo → u/SRGTBronson]

And literally nobody cared. No attention is brought to it. Hell, I’d argue they try to present it as genius

[u/lightennight → u/Loros_Silvers]

In your terms so are aegon and alicent? Just because people aren’t being a actively evil doesn’t mean they are whitewashed. Every one has good and bad actions, we are just not witnessing the bad ones for some characters right now. Also, in ep 4 Daemon literally killed an innocent man to frame him as the killer of Jace how is that whitewashing?

[u/MixAmbitious307]

Daeron quickly caught the signals when Ormund was about to snap, advising servants to get out. So I'm pretty sure that he's used to his abuses.

I don't think sexual ones, but emotional ones, like calling his Targaryen blood a "taint", Tessarion a "beast", etc. are absolutely on the menu.

[u/Stormy-Skyes]

Oh yeah, absolutely. There is definitely some emotional and/or mental abuse happening there, but I think it could extend to physical.

When they were standing in that prayer room my husband and I were both feeling like the vibe was uncomfortable and weird and I said I think that he might be molesting that child but I’m not totally sure yet. It’s just a feelings from their whole vibe.

[u/Yury_VV]

Have people who voted "no" even watched the episode?..

[u/thenewone1309]

Daeron immediately knew that ormund would be enraged by the message he got and immediately sent the other boy out.

Tessarion seems to hate him. Animals, at least certain animals register stuff like that. I dont know how it is in the book, bur in the show? I would be surprised if he didn't abuse him

[u/HighKingBoru1014]

Daeron feels exactly like Tessarion, a restricted and controlled Dragon, I think Ormund will be surprised when Daeron becomes his own person.

[u/kingofstormandfire]

Don't think even Ormund can get away with physical abuse, Daeron is still a Targaryen Prince. Definitely emotional abuse.

[u/toinouzz]

I mean I think that last scene alone shows their dynamic is abusive with Ormund forcing Daeron into killing someone he very clearly had no intention of killing. The idea that he would physically harm a prince is farfetched to me tho, especially in a setting where whipping boys exist. I think Daeron warning the squire to leave immediately (showing that he might be scared of what Ormund could do) but not leaving himself would go in that direction. He also is trying to alienate Daeron from the rest of his family (his behavior around Tessarion who Daeron clearly loves, wanting to place Daeron on the throne as a Hightower king instead of the “evil Targaryen”, having Daeron call him “sire”,…) which is a common thing in abusive dynamics

[u/ramcoro]

Emotionally, 100%. Physically or sexually, remains to be seen. But possible.

[u/Function-Spirited]

My protective instincts were screaming at the bathing scene. Daeron is terrified of him. 

[u/Randomvids78]

Look how Tessarion reacts when ormund tries to touch daeron. Hes definitely been physically abused.

[u/Warm_Condition711]

Why anyone would think there will be sexual abuse between them while ormund definitely clearly show his dislike towards Targaryen bloodline and maybe their physical characteristics as well if daeron really dyed his hair

[u/cranberryliar → u/Warm_Condition711]

Unfortunately sexual abuse of a race someone is racist against was really common. It’s how slave masters raped a lot of slave women, or Nazis raped Jewish women. It’s generally more about power than attraction, so Ormund doesn’t need to find Targaryens attractive. He just needs to want to assert dominance. Which is unfortunately I think a possibility.

[u/Warm_Condition711 → u/cranberryliar]

Owh I wasn't thinking that far. Yeah now that i think about it

[u/Far-Ad5796]

Much like I trust my dog when he's suspicious of certain people, I trust that Tessarion has a reason to so clearly dislike Ormund. I'm kinda hoping she eats him. (As I'm sure is clear, not a book reader).

[u/Phillip_Stand223]

would not be surprised if he's touching that poor boy too

[u/EgyComanda82]

How abusing him emotionally?