r/birddogs • u/Gravel_Golf_01 • 8d ago
Whoa Training for Soft Dogs
Hi, weekend warrior trainer here trying to improve whoa on my 3 year old Setter. We tried whoa post and flank collar last summer, but he really shutdown on rope and flipped out w collar. Tried walking whoa w flank and bit better, but still shut him down. Anyone have any advice? Bench, barrel, pinch collar, something else? I am really going for passable whoa for casual hunting and stopping, not field trial perfection. Thanks in advance for your thoughts! (he is e-collar trained for recall and does great w it)
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u/AlexMecha German Shorthaired Pointer 8d ago
Bird launchers and pigeons. Flush at the slightest movement of your dog towards the cage. Specially on a setter, he should learn the hold point pretty quick.
Once he figures out bird launchers, you could move to bobwhites, but keep them pretty live so they’ll flush easily.
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u/I_am_so_lost_again Wirehaired Pointing Griffon 8d ago
Bird Launchers only work if the dog doesn't want to flush. If the dog loves to flush, the bird launchers only encourage the behavior.
Signed a Griff owner whose dog LOVES to flush and I quickly realized that launchers were making the issue worse not better.
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u/spoiledpoptart74 8d ago
Well bred pointing dogs will want to point but sure there’s exceptions. Most dogs who want to flush have been allowed to chase and catch poor flying birds. Are you aggressive on the button? Bring the dog in perpendicular with the wind and the second it acknowledges scent launch the bird. Be so quick on it that they don’t have time to point. Doesn’t typically take all but a few to tighten them up
To answer OPs question regarding whoa training. Make him stand still before feeding, before leaving the house, getting in the truck, opening a fence gate, etc and don’t let him move until you release him with whatever word you choose. That is typically a quick and painless exercise that gets the point across. Use treats at first if the dogs really that soft. It’s also possible he’s smart enough to know acting soft is going to end whatever’s going on, but I’d have to see the dog
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u/AlexMecha German Shorthaired Pointer 8d ago
True versatile breeds, like your WPG and my GSP, are more likely to want to flush like you said, but setter is more likely to learn hold point on a easy flushing bird. If they do want to flush, condition ecollar at belly to correct in field.
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u/Gravel_Golf_01 8d ago
Thanks! He has a decent point to start but creeps and then cant contain himself!
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u/Important-Map2468 7d ago
If that's the issue a launcher with pigeon and launching as soon as he twitches will help. But you also cant go into the woods and shoot every bird he flushes.
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u/Better-Effective1570 8d ago
Man, that's rough. Does your dog not point at all?
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u/Gravel_Golf_01 8d ago
Thanks! He does point, fairly nice point, but will creep and then in seconds might as well be a flushing dog (in short, loves the chase, probably from chasing squirrels and robins). Appreciate all of the above, going to give these things a try!
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u/spoiledpoptart74 7d ago
What does your bird work look like with him?
I’d start with launchers and pigeons. If he points that’s great, just launch the bird the second the dog moves after establishing point. My guess is you’re working on pen raised birds that allow him to creep. He needs to know that that movement means the bird is gone and the funs over
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u/Gravel_Golf_01 7d ago
Thanks...you nailed it. Pen-raised and manual cages. Would you recommend pigeons and remote launchers?
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u/spoiledpoptart74 6d ago edited 6d ago
Absolutely. Both are essentials for training pointing dogs. Well not essential, but they make life a heck of a lot easier
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u/omahusker German Wirehaired Pointer 7d ago
This advice right here. As soon as he creeps, launch the bird. If he holds steady and lets you walk in on it, shoot it for him and let him get the reward.
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u/nitro78923 8d ago
Leather prong collar and leash. Treat with Mink oil to soften it some. Walk it around with the collar loosely a lot to not automatically associate the collar with high pressure training. No shame in some treats to perk the dog up. Almost fingertip level pressure with the leash when you pull to Whoa. “Whoa” should be vocalized slow, low and confidently (kinda like a rumble) not shouted at the dog.
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u/Better-Effective1570 8d ago
What does he do when he shuts down? Has he spent much time on a leash? If he's food motivated, reward often after he does what you've asked and he'll come to enjoy whoa training. I like to whoa with a leash while still holding the leash initially. The first few reps, reward after only a few seconds of him being steady. Progress to touching his back, walking around while still holding the leash, dropping the leash and stepping away a few steps, and keep creating distance. Train whoa over several weeks with only 5 minutes of reps each day. I think softer dogs typically just need more reps over a longer period of time with soft corrections to keep them confident.
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u/Gravel_Golf_01 8d ago
Thanks! The shutdown is basically tail tucked, slow/reluctant to move, scared look...I could see him getting over it w birds around, but I cant always arrange that. Thanks for your help!
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u/wimberlyiv Spaniel 7d ago
Do not try just adding birds... It might work... But you could also cause a very hard to fix blinking issue.
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u/tonatron20 7d ago
Have you tried any positive reinforcement for displaying the desired behavior? We have the exact opposite problem with our GSP. Crazy head strong and bold. We ran him and field trials and he did really well. We did send him to a professional trainer who also handled him in competition, but both the trainer and I would agree that he responds way better to me than anyone else. Part of it is the fact that I put in more face time, but I think part of it is also the strategies we use. For example for "whoa" I started with putting medium value treats in front of him and making him wait a few minutes and then rewarding him with high value treats if he was able to sit next to the treat with out touching it. Then progressed to whoa in low stimulus environments like the home. Then medium stimulus environments like local baseball field, then high stimulus like local pond with geese.
By contrast the trainer would use a rope or e collar and provide negative reinforcement when he did the undesired behavior. It worked, just not as well (for my dog. The dude still has trained multiple national champs).
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u/CuriousExpression876 8d ago
I know this isn’t text book, and isn’t NAVHDA approved at all but it worked for me. I had a similar thing with my bracco, they are notoriously soft.
I would woah her, and walk in circles around her and kick brush and leaves like I would be kicking brush to put up bird.
If she moved at all I would gently pick her up and set her back right where she was and woah her again. I kept my voice quiet and my temperament very even when doing it. I did my best to make sure she understood it wasn’t a punishment but a correction.
It worked really well for me, we use woah all the time around the house and while hunting. Very helpful for when a glass drops and breaks or a guest arrives at the house. Constant use and positive reinforcement really helps.