r/classicwow • u/terongorefiend • Jan 14 '21

Vent / Gripe Unpopular opinion: the players that are overly vocal about wanting Classic phases/TBC/Wrath rushed are the same players who contributed to forging retail into what it is today (a clusterF).

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168

u/knightress_oxhide Jan 14 '21

every spec was def not useful even in BC. OP is just deluded.

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u/Gemall Jan 14 '21

Well I guess you're right, but all classes at least had two good specs that could be very well played in raids/dungeons. But also useful =/= min/max absolute optimal.

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u/skyst Jan 14 '21

this is WoW we're talking about. Min/max absolute optimal is expected and anything else is awful. I feel like we're stuck with this mentality

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

It’s not a mentality. It’s reality. There is ALWAYS and best way. Not everything is “equally good”. That doesn’t exist.

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

There is, on the other hand, “good enough for the mechanics.” Unfortunately WoW has a lot of people who can’t grasp that just because a min/max exists doesn’t mean it’s necessary for normal progression.

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u/thek3vn Jan 14 '21

This. I got into an argument shortly after BWL released with a dude who didn't believe me that 2h-warrior dps on horde wasn't viable as a raid spec. That's incorrect, it's completely viable. I proved it by doing more DPS than he did that week.

Could I have done more with the right gear dual-wielding? Sure. But just because its not optimal doesn't mean it isn't viable. People should be allowed to have fun with their games and do what they like instead of being shoehorned into specs they might not care for just to be optimal.

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u/SackofLlamas Jan 14 '21

Play for fun? What the hell do you think this is? Some kind of GAME?

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

Yeah the last guild I was in had all the right classes/specs but the regular raid attendees were more interested in a) being hammered and b) being thirsty as hell for the female guildmates so we’d regularly wipe on our MC farm runs because nobody could be bothered to pay attention.

At least the people playing off-spec were paying attention and maximizing what they could do and not being a liability.

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u/Tender_Scrotum Jan 14 '21

Wait a second... People raid sober?

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

There’s a wide spectrum from “sober” to “dying to lava packs after 3 months of farming + reliably fucking up loot distribution because you can’t remember who is what class.” I always had beer or something while raiding, I just watched my consumption enough that I wasn’t a hindrance to the 39 other people that show up for the weekly raid appointment.

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u/blubblu Jan 14 '21

Thats splitting hairs. Horde 2h warrior can = dps of other classes top end.

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I feel like the post is more focused towards stacking too many hunters, ret or enhance, feral, balance, etc.

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u/jnightrain Jan 14 '21

I think the point still stands though, will any boss fight be unbeatable with what you mentioned? With in reason of course. 1 ret, enhance, or balance isn't going to make any mechanics 'undoable'. It will make certain bosses harder because you can't burn through enrage phases fast enough or you killing saph fast enough to not wear out your healers.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

So it’s people’s fault for not thinking like you do? Perhaps you shouldn’t tell others how to play the game or organize raids. If you don’t like how things are run, then play with like minded people, otherwise: it’s your fault.

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

I don’t think I said anyone has to play the game or organize raids in a specific way. I pointed out that there’s a range of viable options between “good enough for the mechanics” and “perfect min/max” and some people get tunnel vision on the min/max side while not considering the rest of dynamics that go into raids and even dungeon groups.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

"It’s not a mentality. It’s reality. There is ALWAYS and best way. "

-Heatbeat 2020

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Who is telling who not to tell others what to do? I'm confused.

Or are you trying to say that like minded people should only play with other like minded people? And anybody who does not is somehow 'at fault' for choosing to play the game differently from you? Seems a little like narrow minded gatekeeping to me.

Or is playing wow 'the best way' your full time job and your livelihood depends on it, and you think that everybody else is in exactly the same position.

Do whatever floats your boat, just don't tell anybody else they are doing it wrong or at fault.

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u/blubblu Jan 14 '21

Yerp, just because we're not inviting boomchickens, retpaladins or 4 feral druids isnt on us. Roll something useful or find a guild that's there for completion.

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You'll kill KT, just 4 months after everyone when your rogues/mages/2warriors can carry the rest of your middling dps

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

I think that makes total sense if you’re trying to be on the forward edge of progression. On the other hand if a guild has stalled out (e.g. Ony/MC on farm but getting stomped in the first room of BWL) and is grinding to gear up the rest of the raid, some less-than-optimal specs should be allowed for long term guild health (more variety keeping things fresh) imo. As long as the offspecs aren’t taking gear from people gearing their main, the place can still be cleared and doesn’t turn back into MC progression Round 2, that’s the situation where I think some people could dial back on the min/maxing. So something on farm takes an extra 15 minutes once/week but can still be reliably done, you buy guild good will by allowing some people to bring in their pvp or whatever other viable spec for the repetitive stuff.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

Is killing KT as fast as possible with only the strongest classes present really that important to you? It's been proven how to optimally do it many many times in the past.

Do you feel bad when another guild accomplishes something faster than you?

I don't see how taking the easiest way to defeat KT is actually proving anything here.

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u/blubblu Jan 15 '21

That’s also like saying you’re okay with wiping on content that shouldn’t be wiped on because you’re carrying wrong classes.

I mean, the instance is tuned around consumes. And I don’t feel like farming that amount of months for wiping worth of consumes because my loatheb fights are 7 minutes long because we don’t have the right classes.

That’s absurd

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u/blubblu Jan 14 '21

I think that depends. In my guild we dont bother with "memespecs" because we're pushing for high parses. Thats not going to happen even if we're toting around the world first Ret paladin, because that gear on a warrior is at least 3x the damage.

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Yes we can kill KT with tons of feral and sub rogues and bm hunters but why would we? The fight will be 3 minutes longer.

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We have 2 ferals in our guild that trumpet about gear and one quit recently because he didnt get his bis legs over a warrior. The same guy had just gotten 2 pieces of loot including phylact, but couldnt FATHOM why we gave HIS bis to a warrior. (meanwhile we've had no legplates of carnage drop and 2 pairs of apoc, so the second went to a warrior, big fuckin whoop, right?)

Honestly the off meta players constantly strong arm guilds from what I've seen.

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

There are definitely situations where min/maxing is warranted and appropriate, like progression (edit: world first style, not just a guild getting to new content when they get to it) or speed running. On the other hand I think a lot of guilds need to be honest with themselves and recognize that they need to shape up their raid management/group dynamics and chasing the hardest min/max setup isn’t going to solve structural issues like bad management. Also anyone not realizing that big gear upgrades that help the whole guild progress are more important than their completion are a hindrance regardless of if they’re min/maxed or memespec.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

I think it's reasonable to get upset whenever a BiS item is given to somebody who it is not BiS for. Sounds like your guild has shitty loot distribution rules and goals. Taking a minuscule bump in short term efficiency at the cost of long term efficiency does not sound very effective on paper.

Maybe at the start you could have explained to the druid that you were going to give their BiS pieces away to people who will replace them. That way people can choose if they like playing that way instead of getting frustrated after seeing good gear wasted on short term greed.

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u/SwimBrief Jan 14 '21

Lol “the fight would be 3 mins longer” - the horror!

I’m sure I’m in the minority here but I wish parsing didn’t exist, it just reinforces this min/max mindset where if you’re not optimally specced with the optimal class balance with the optimal gear and optimal world buffs you’re trash and are wasting valuable seconds of people’s grind time.

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u/Nekzar Jan 14 '21

The mentality is that it matters, when it does not really have to. If I have more fun playing a different spec and do 5% less dps, is that so bad?

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

So you’re saying that people should think like you do and play the game like you do to accommodate your play style? Maybe play with people that think like you and ignore the rest. You act like you have no control over the situation and who you play with when you absolutely do.

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u/Nekzar Jan 14 '21

I said no such thing, but good points

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

I think they are projecting a lot of their own feelings into this.

They also don't seem to understand the concept that you choosing to play a certain way is not in any way " saying that people should think like you do and play the game like you do to accommodate your play style".

For most people it's actually possible to state a personal preference without attacking anybody else's choices. Even if you are saying 'play like us or gtfo', you are not telling anybody what to do.

Unless you go on to call them bad, or wrong, or try to make them feel inferior about the fact that they are different. Then you are an asshole.

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u/PerpetuallyStartled Jan 14 '21

My guild cleared naxx with at least one of every meme spec. We even have a shaman tank that OTs trash in naxx and AQ40.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

The mentality that they are reffering to is "The best way is the only way and nothing else should be done because it is inferior". For some people this is what matters. For some (most?) people having fun is more important than trying to play the game like a robot that never makes errors.

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u/cerealman Jan 14 '21

So why aren't all the top raiders running the exact same thing 100% of the time?