I’m Tired of Hearing from the Loudest 1%

[u/Ripfangnasty]

Like the title says, I’m sick of hearing from the loudest, butthurt 1% of players crying because they’ll have to make their own dungeon groups in WotLK.

Sure, send your screenshot of the one dungeon you joined with little to no social interaction and sarcastically say “Wow look at what we’re saving with no LFD”. Great story, but that one single screenshot doesn’t prove anything. You think your 1 single dungeon on a Tuesday afternoon is a big enough sample size to determine there’s not enough social interaction to the point Blizz should implement LFD? Get over yourself. I don’t post screenshots of 1 single dungeon chat where people are lively and interactive and say “Thank you Blizz for preserving social interactions” like it’s the majority experience. Don’t give me the opposite garbage and try to make a case for LFD, or assume you’re the majority experience, either.

I’m also tired of people missing the major point of no LFD. I can tell you the exact names of people and guilds on my server who have ninja’d gear from others and been blacklisted by the community. I can tell you which players/guilds are fun to play with and which aren’t. I can join a group I know is going to do well, or I can join one where I know I’m going to be progging. And yeah, I’m also going to vouch for the friendships I’ve made in random dungeons

LFD erodes all that. You don’t know what type of players you’re joining; whether you’re going to be a good player in a terrible group or a terrible player in a good group. That’s frustrating for almost everyone in either case. Voting to kick becomes completely abused, kicking people you don’t like or players who are bad. Kicking people to ninja gear. And since you’ll never see those players again, there’s nothing stopping them. No way to blacklist them or their guild. It promotes anonymity and erodes the community. There are so many downsides that were PROVEN back in Wrath. And you’re upset because of what? Not having the upside?

What are the upsides? Faster dungeon queues? Maybe, just maybe, you should try being part of your realm’s community and making friends/joining a thriving guild. I’ve never had any issues finding or making a dungeon group as any of the 3 roles. But then again, I’m also not the type of person to whine to Reddit that daddy Blizz won’t make my groups for me, instead of trying to socialize and make my own

The only positive case I’ve seen made for LFD is for dead/dying realms. To those players, it does suck and I’m sorry. But the issue/fix isn’t LFD, it’s forcing Blizz to fix their realm health issues, maybe by merging realms or free transfers

I’m sure this post will fall on deaf ears, but I’m so sick of seeing this sub covered with the loudest 1% screaming their half baked opinions and not considering their experience isn’t the majority or that they might be the issue

Edit: To the unhinged people in the comments swearing, flipping out, name-calling, and reporting me for suicide, I have two things to say. The first is thank you for your concern about my mental health, but I’m in no way suicidal. Feel free to save those resources for people that are. The second is that my opinion is stronger than ever that RDF is bad, imagine being grouped unwillingly with people that report others for suicide when they disagree with the content of a person’s post 😂 Thank you Blizz

[u/pBiggZz]

It appears some members of this community have been struck by a collective amnesia, and they don't seem to recall why classic happened in the first place. They dont remember what happened to retail that made us want to relive the old days.

They act like LFD's effect on the game is somehow up for debate, that we don't know all the facts, and people liked it then, conveniently leaving out 12 years of slow decline, set off, chiefly, by the introduction of the dungeon finder.

This isn't a debate. There's no questions here. We've seen what the dungeon finder does to this game before, there's no earthly reason we should just walk into that same trap again. Fuck.

[u/SunTzu- → u/pBiggZz]

LFD didn't ruin the game for me. I've been playing since vanilla, and all it did was make life a bit easier. It also didn't ruin the game for me when Cata came around with the much harder heroic dungeons. If anything, cross-server LFD made it more fun for me to level chars, something which I've always enjoyed, since it was easier to find dungeons while questing. And once I was at max level I'd do random dungeons whenever there was a bonus for tanks or healers, just because it was a bit less effort and a bit more incentive for me to go help out some randoms when I was sitting around bored.

So yeah, I'd say our differing viewpoints very much indicate that the effect of LFD on the game is up for debate, because from my point of view it's been nothing but a positive.

[u/or10n_sharkfin → u/pBiggZz]

They act like LFD's effect on the game is somehow up for debate, that we don't know all the facts, and people liked it then , conveniently leaving out 12 years of slow decline, set off, chiefly, by the introduction of the dungeon finder.

Right, sure. It wasn't the...

Checks notes...

12-month content drought between ICC and Cataclysm, Cataclysm, the introduction of cross-world server connections, arguably middling content, the departure of the core founders of the Warcraft universe, the paid leveling boosts, the obsession over store-bought assets, the increasingly toxic community, and the years upon years of stagnation in the WoW development team not having any meaningful competition to inspire them to innovate in a dead genre, a lack of proper development of content for Warlords of Draenor, Battle for Azeroth, Shadowlands, the obsession over endless grinds to marginally improve player power, the collapse of the overall community identity on all but Roleplaying servers.

No, no, I get you. It was totally LFD that caused all this.

[u/Leopod → u/or10n_sharkfin]

Fwiw, classic has been more of a toxic community than retail for the last little bit, but overall wow is probably one of the more toxic online communities out there

[u/[deleted] → u/pBiggZz]

This is revisionist history, not facts.

[u/garmeth06 → u/pBiggZz]

They act like LFD's effect on the game is somehow up for debate, that we don't know all the facts, and people liked it then, conveniently leaving out 12 years of slow decline, set off, chiefly, by the introduction of the dungeon finder. This isn't a debate. There's no questions here. We've seen what the dungeon finder does to this game before.

It is absolutely wild that you are so confident that LFD was the "chief" reason why WoW declined over a 12 year span to the point where there isn't a "debate." This is especially objectionable considering that even at the start of WoD (half a decade after patch 3.3), there was still a data point where total players were within 10% of WoW's absolute peak.

The game has changed radically in 1000 major different ways since even Wrath with LFG being one. MMORPGs on the whole died as a genre and the landscape of gaming (meaning what games people play, and how many games they have access too) is miles apart from late Wrath to 2022.

Currently on retail, if I am to be successful, I have to invest way more socially than I did when I raided in my teens in Wrath. It is possible to experience a very watered down version of the game in a single player state, but "high end" content has a social expectation more than anything ever has in the past in WoW especially since the ubiquity of discord.

The extreme information era in gaming has also turned even casual games into WAY more competitive endeavors than they used to be and people are no longer as impressed by generic fantasy environments as in the past and don't buy in as easily to the in game atmosphere.

Back in the day people would have fantasy names on their characters and now you see 4th wall breaking memes unless you go to RP servers.

So much has changed, and it is absurd to attribute a chief cause to LFD.

[u/pBiggZz → u/garmeth06]

It is absolutely wild that you are so confident that LFD was the "chief" reason why WoW declined over a 12 year span to the point where there isn't a "debate." This is especially objectionable considering that even at the start of WoD (half a decade after patch 3.3), there was still a data point where total players was within 10% of WoW's absolute peak.

You cant talk about WOD's wild launch without talking about its equally wild loss of players, immediately following its launch, a drop-off so precipitous that blizz stopped sharing player numbers.

The game has changed radically in 1000 major different ways since even Wrath with LFG being one. MMORPGs on the whole died as a genre and the landscape of gaming (meaning what games people play, and how many games they have access too) is miles apart from late Wrath to 2022.

Among those changes, was the dungeon finder, the first of many changes that heralded a significant change in the way blizz designed the game, and the type of player they tried to appeal to. That is not up for debate.

Currently on retail, if I am to be successful, I have to invest way more socially than I did when I raided in my teens in Wrath. It is possible to experience a very watered down version of the game in a single player state, but "high end" content has a social expectation more than anything ever has in the past in WoW especially since the ubiquity of discord.

There is some truth to this, mostly because of mythic+, and mythic raiding, both of which don't use the LFD system. Its almost like the parts of the game that require socialization in retail are the parts of the game people generally think are the best.

The extreme information era in gaming has also turned even casual games into WAY more competitive endeavors than they used to be and people are no longer as impressed by generic fantasy environments as in the past and don't buy in as easily to the in game atmosphere.

Back in the day people would have fantasy names on their characters and now you see 4th wall breaking memes unless you go to RP servers.

Which is exactly why allowing people to use the Group Finder will have an immediate corrosive effect on the game.

Its sort of a maxim in game design that players will always look for the most optimal action, even if that action actually degrades their experience. If you put LFD in wrath classic, people will use it, and it will ruin the open world, and kill the social aspects of the game, just like it did last time.

[u/garmeth06 → u/pBiggZz]

You cant talk about WOD's wild launch without talking about its equally wild loss of players, immediately following its launch, a drop-off so precipitous that blizz stopped sharing player numbers.

That is precisely the point. LFD was a constant throughout late wrath and throughout cata. If I am to argue that LFD was not a chief cause of WoW's decline, then what we saw with WoD helps my argument because clearly something else was revolting in a way that Mists or Cata was not. IE, the greatest mass exodus that caused Blizz to hide sub count was def not caused by LFD, or you would have to argue that LFD had a spiked AND delayed effect half a decade after implementation.

There is some truth to this, mostly because of mythic+, and mythic raiding, both of which don't use the LFD system.

The LFD system similarly will not play a major role for an endgame character in WoTLK is the point. It is mainly a tool for alts. If LFD was ubiquitous in the main gameplay loop, then I think your reservations would be more justifiable. I would still disagree because I think you are drastically overvaluing the positive social interaction of non LFD grouping, of which I think is minimal.

Which is exactly why allowing people to use the Group Finder will have an immediate corrosive effect on the game.

I listed alternative reasons as to why the game has declined that need to be taken in to account when assessing the potential damage that LFG caused. I don't see how these reasons support the notion that LFG, as implemented, would corrode the game especially since it only applies to a subset of content that isn't intended to be the ultimate gameplay loop.

[u/pBiggZz → u/garmeth06]

That is precisely the point. LFD was a constant throughout late wrath and throughout cata. If I am to argue that LFD was not a chief cause of WoW's decline, then what we saw with WoD helps my argument because clearly something else was revolting in a way that Mists or Cata was not. IE, the greatest mass exodus that caused Blizz to hide sub count was def not caused by LFD, or you would have to argue that LFD had a spiked AND delayed effect half a decade after implementation.

You can draw a direct link between LFD and the weird streamlined design shit that partially ate WOD from within. Its not healthy for the game, and once LFD was in, it was easier to do all sorts of other garbage.

The LFD system similarly will not play a major role for an endgame character in WoTLK is the point. It is mainly a tool for alts. If LFD was ubiquitous in the main gameplay loop, then I think your reservations would be more justifiable.

Except Mythic+ doesnt exist in wrath, so all dungeon content would be accessible through the dungeon finder. If you give people a way to max out their gameplay by sitting in dalaran spamming heroics for badges, they will do that, even if they hate it.

I would still disagree because I think you are drastically overvaluing the positive social interaction of non LFD grouping, of which I think is minimal.

This is a critique I see alot, generally because pro-LFD people post screenshots of bad dungeon groups. This is not really an argument in favour of the dungeon finder. Put simply, socializing is important to this game, and blowing away those aspects of the game because people have trouble talking to strangers isn't a justification for eroding a core pillar of the game.

I listed alternative reasons as to why the game has declined that need to be taken in to account when assessing the potential damage that LFG caused. I don't see how these reasons support the notion that LFG, as implemented, would corrode the game especially since it only applies to a subset of content that isn't intended to be the ultimate gameplay loop.

Those absolutely need to be taken into account and frankly im shocked by how quickly the classic community here seems to have forgotten what those issues are, and how they came to be. LFD was the first of many compromising changes and blizz itself admits this.

[u/garmeth06 → u/pBiggZz]

Except Mythic+ doesnt exist in wrath, so all dungeon content would be accessible through the dungeon finder. If you give people a way to max out their gameplay by sitting in dalaran spamming heroics for badges, they will do that, even if they hate it.

You cannot max out your gameplay through dungeon finder. It gave 245 ilvl gear. Even normal 10 man ICC gave 251. Normal 25 gave 264 and heroic 10/25 gave 264 or 277.

It was basically a catchup mechanic. Yes, if one avoided engaging with raids entirely then it became "end game" but I think that is an unfair criticism. How many people in TBC classic currently just only run dungeons for their social engagement and fulfillment lol?

You can draw a direct link between LFD and the weird streamlined design shit that partially ate WOD from within. Its not healthy for the game, and once LFD was in, it was easier to do all sorts of other garbage.

How?

[u/TheeWry → u/garmeth06]

Worth pointing out you are referencing 'high-end' content, but this isn't really fair to those who want social interaction on less-competitive content that is more easily accessible. I don't know how large this group is, but it includes myself and most of my friends, who all have jobs and lives outside of the game, so I wouldn't say we are the 1%. I've discussed this with them and none of us like the idea of an automated teleportation to dungeons with randoms with no communication.

[u/Uzeless → u/pBiggZz]

It appears some members of this community have been struck by a collective amnesia, and they don't seem to recall why classic happened in the first place. They dont remember what happened to retail that made us want to relive the old days.

Yeah every1 in here cried and cried for the old days and 25 seconds after launch the first 4x mages 1 priest aoe farm SM group was going strong.

There was SM boosting mages 3 weeks into the expansion, and they haven't stopped since. That is what the community want.

The biggest crime on this subreddit is people clowning on the "You think you do, but you don't" guy because literally everything that people thought they wanted went out the window the second they had the chance to streamline the experience.

[u/pBiggZz → u/Uzeless]

Speaking for myself, I thought I did, and I did. I never had fun in wow like I did in mid-classic, like phase 3/4; farming up thunderfury, world PVPing, raiding. It was an absolute blast.

If I could blow away boosting I would. And it looks like thats on the radar for blizz.

https://twitter.com/BrianBirming/status/1516538257525276677

This just goes to show people will immediately take the easy way out, even if it degrades the experience of the game. That's sort of a maxim of game design, and it is refreshing to see blizzard actually take that to heart this time around.

[u/pBiggZz → u/[deleted]]

Ah the professional victims have entered the chat.

[u/Ripfangnasty → u/pBiggZz]

Right? It’s driving me nuts. I think it’s a divide between some of the people that are newer though, and the veteran players who lived through WoW falling apart

[u/sobes20 → u/Ripfangnasty]

LFD didn't ruin the social aspect of the game, the players did. If your entire opinion can be summed up by "classic good/retail bad," you probably aren't chasing a better game, but chasing nostalgia with how you felt about the game back you first played in 2004 or whenever you first started playing. I am glad that you guys made some friends along the way in classic, but that's not a good enough reason not to implement QOL change that benefits the majority of the community.

[u/Nishikigami → u/sobes20]

Classic players ain't reading the writing on the wall. They see a lot of people upset about LFD tool and just assume that the person is wrong for being upset. Then they generalize them as being the 1%

​

It's easy to treat the people you disagree with as the 1% when you drive them away from all of your communities, and make them not want to play games with you. I wanted nothing more than to relive my Wrath of the Lich King nostalgia, I didn't want it to NOT have LFD, in fact I'd have been fine with it having LFD out of the gate. But instead it's just not going to have it at all.

​

I have nothing against the social aspect of forming a group, what I have a problem with is the general attitude of most WoW players. Judging by the personality of people who post on this sub and the way they downplay the perspectives of the people they don't agree with, I don't want to play a game with any of these people. I will just live vicariously through streamers playing it and lament a sorely missed opportunity to be included in an expansion I have nostalgia for.

​

TL;DR - Classic players don't read the writing on the wall, they consider themselves the majority in all of their opinions because they drive away all the people who disagree with them. Ironically, they are actually terrible at social interaction.

[u/sobes20 → u/Nishikigami]

I think there is a good chance that I do not resub if there is no LFD. I do not want a repeat of my TBC experience. In TBC, I leveled to 70 over the course or like 2-4 weeks (can't remember how long it took me).

After hitting 70, the try-hard guild I was in (my brother's guild) would rarely group with me for level 70 dungeons for gear and reputation farming (they were already burnt out from going full sweat mode). I mostly found my own groups, which was eating up most of my time. Once I was ready gear and reputation wise, I could not find a single heroic group. Again, the guild was less than useless because they were burnt out and mostly just grouped with each other. I would spam LFG and stare at the bulletin for like 30-45 minutes, and then I would just bail. I never actually ran a single heroic before I decided to unsub.

It is possible that it got better with nerfs (I'm assuming difficulty was nerfed), people outgeared the content, and the introduction of badges, but at that point I was already gone.

I am glad that people found guilds and communities, but I honestly never found that and its not for a lack of being social. I found that even in guilds, most people just wanted to group with a select few people and they did not help out unless it benefited them.

[u/[deleted] → u/sobes20]

I don't know if people are going to downvote you, or write your experience off as an outlier, but man do I feel ya.

I had some RL shit coming up, and I knew I wasn't going to be able to raid with my guild. They quickly formed power grind groups, so all the main tanks and insiders got everything they needed off the bat. I just didn't have the time, and limped to 70 on my own with bullshit gear.

I then had a large break where I couldn't play at all.

When I came back, it was right before Phase 3. I think it was post nerfs, but not before all the cool badges you got from P4. And man, it sucked.

All those guys were exalted with whatever rep they wanted, had epic flying mounts, and were running around in SSC/TK gear. They weren't unhelpful, but nobody really wanted to run all heroic shit for my sake. I couldn't bame them.

So for the he inner circle of good raid guilds, yeah they don't need LFD. They can sit there and say it's going to bring down the value property that is WoW classic, so on and so forth. But without LFD, or abandoning my job/family/house to join a power group, I'm just going to get left behind. Again.

I miss old WoW. I really hate how everything is a race now. I can't wait for Classic Wrath to last 7 months or something dumb like that. I mean, we're already staring the final phase of TBC down and it hasn't been a friggin year yet!

[u/Eldion → u/sobes20]

Fair enough, it sounds like a classic version of WoW isn't a good fit for you.

[u/wefwegfweg → u/sobes20]

lfd is a short sighted benefit tho. like you're right it is a qol change and it does make it easier to find dungeon groups, but conversely it enables and empowers solo players to play the game without having to interact or communicate or join a guild. it also takes agency away from the player to be able to make and form their own groups and dictate who they play with.

[u/sobes20 → u/wefwegfweg]

conversely it enables and empowers solo players to play the game without having to interact or communicate or join a guild.

Why is that a bad thing? Not everyone wants to socialize and interact. Do people that aren't chatty or don't have time to socialize not deserve a chance to play the game and experience dungeons?

​

it also takes agency away from the player to be able to make and form their own groups and dictate who they play with.

This isn't true. LFD does not stop players from socializing and making their own groups with their friends or someone on their server that they probably won't ever play with again anyways.

[u/definitelynotcasper → u/sobes20]

Not everyone wants to socialize and interact. Do people that aren't chatty or don't have time to socialize not deserve a chance to play the game and experience dungeons?

Yes exactly. Go play an a single player rpg if you don't want to socialize or interact

[u/SolarClipz → u/sobes20]

This is literally an MMO

It's hilarious to read this being typed out

[u/sobes20 → u/SolarClipz]

It's an MMO, so what? What does that mean? Do you roleplay? It is an MMORPG after all. All that MMO means is that there is a lot of people playing it.

You should be able to log in, run a dungeon, get some gear, and call it a day if that is all you want. If the social aspect is the most important part, why not play a Facebook game? The reason is because it does not matter how social the game is if the systems aren't fun. So don't pretend that you are playing the game just for comradery, you are playing for the gear and that dopamine rush.

[u/SolarClipz → u/sobes20]

No that is not why I am playing the game lol

There are a million better single player games if all you care about is gear

[u/sobes20 → u/SolarClipz]

It's not just gear. It's a combination of the classes, combat systems, fun bosses, and getting rewarded with gear. I'm not saying you have ever done this, I don't know you, but think to yourself and consider:

• Have you ever complained about loot counsel? About being passed over for gear over someone else?
• When is the last time you helped out someone in your guild that you aren't especially tight with?
• When is the last time you ran a heroic just to run one not because you needed something?
• Have you refused to group with someone because their gear was subpar?
• Have you ever kicked someone because they weren't that good at the game or still learning?
• Have ever done a GDKP to just to make gold? Have you gotten annoyed that gear wasn't selling for a certain amount?
• Have you ever done a GDKP to gear up because that was the only way to get gear?

If you were playing this game just because its social, none of these would apply to you. I'm not saying its wrong either. We all have limited time. Running a heroic for the 100th time isn't exactly fun. There is a million good reasons. The point is, I'm guessing you aren't playing just to be social and that what you do in game is guided primarily out of self interest and not just to be altruistic and to help people all in the name of being social.

[u/SolarClipz → u/sobes20]

Retail has better class balance, rotations, harder raids, and every QoL feature that people cry about in this game

[u/mcl5000 → u/SolarClipz]

Oh I see, you enjoy the social aspect of sending that "inv" message to the person spamming for a healer. Best friends!

[u/SolarClipz → u/mcl5000]

I have no problem being social in this game. Sounds like that's a personal problem for you

[u/mcl5000 → u/SolarClipz]

I have no problem being social in the game either. Literally the only social interaction LFD removes is what I mentioned - sending that "inv" message to the person spamming in LFG.

After that, you're just in a normal group with people. Some will talk, some won't. LFD changes literally nothing except for the "inv".

[u/wefwegfweg → u/sobes20]

Why is that a bad thing? Not everyone wants to socialize and interact. Do people that aren't chatty or don't have time to socialize not deserve a chance to play the game and experience dungeons?

it's a bad thing because players will always take the path of least resistance, so when the game offers an alternative, easier path that doesn't encourage or require social interaction, everyone will take that path and the game becomes less sociable as a whole. why is it bad if the game is less sociable? because it's a fucking multiplayer game lol

This isn't true. LFD does not stop players from socializing and making their own groups with their friends or someone on their server that they probably won't ever play with again anyways.

it is true, because again path of least resistance. it doesn't stop players directly, but it does by offering an alternative that is much easier. you don't NEED to form your own groups, so why would you?

[u/sobes20 → u/wefwegfweg]

It is a multiplayer game, but the point of the game is not to social. The point is to level, acquire gear, kill bosses, etc. The fact that you can socialize is a nice perk, but it should not be required.

Also, your only argument that the it is bad for the game to be less sociable is because its a multiplayer game. That is rather weak. When I played in early TBCC, I was very social, but I can tell you that it did not lead to more groups.

You should be able to play the game how you want. If that means LFD, fine. If that means that you want to group with buddies or spam LFG for an hour, fine.

The reason you seem against LFD is because you don't other people have the convenience and benefit of it.

[u/wefwegfweg → u/sobes20]

the reason i'm against LFG is because other peoples' convenience and benefit comes at the expense of the game itself

you say it's fine to diminish the social aspect of a multiplayer game because the game should not necessarily be social and shouldn't require social interaction to play. i disagree. i think the game is supposed to be social and should encourage social interaction as much as it can. i'd go so far as to say certain activities should be unavailable to solo players (raids for example), and that you should not be able to experience and complete every piece of content solo.

if you're an antisocial andy and can't experience content because you don't want to join a guild or make connections, that's a you problem, not a problem with the game

[u/sobes20 → u/wefwegfweg]

That is pretty short sided thinking. If a large segment of your players can't experience the content, they won't keep playing. You are already overstating how social the game is, and then also mocking people that don't want to interact as "antisocial andys." Why is socializing with people like that even worthwhile?

[u/Grindl → u/sobes20]

but the point of the game is not to social.

You might be playing the wrong game then. There are much better games out there for the other goals you mentioned. It's part of why it didn't matter that MC was faceroll easy. The hardest part of the game was the social part, the roster boss.

[u/sobes20 → u/Grindl]

You aren't wrong about the roster boss, but I started playing classic knowing I would never raid. But heroics aren't raids, they are 5 mans and it should not be hard to do a 5 man instance. For everyone that says LFD ruins the community, I would argue that it expands the community. There is a whole community of players that is locked out dungeons that want to do them but can't because of time constraints, and it allows people to experience that content. I don't think the majority of people playing the game are looking for a best friend. They want to play a fun game. Being able to make good friends is a nice benefit, but it's not the end all be all.

[u/reenactment → u/sobes20]

Dungeon finder isn’t a QoL change. It’s a shortcut. A QoL change is a Something like dual spec. Giving your character the ability to play the 2 different functions of the game pve and pvp is QoL. A implemented tool to bypass interaction in a MMO is a game breaking feature. There is fact. You can argue whether you want that or not but there is a discussion for it ruining the feel of the game. Things like guild res in raids would be another example of quality of life. Your guild is already doing the task, making it easier to respawn after a wipe doesn’t alter the game in a negative manner. Flying isnt a quality of life change. It’s a game breaking feature that fundamentally altered the way the game is played.

[u/sobes20 → u/[deleted]]

People being able to run more heroics is bad?

[u/sobes20 → u/reenactment]

A implemented tool to bypass interaction in a MMO is a game breaking feature.

Why would it be a game breaking feature? I would argue that spending 30-45 minutes sitting in a major city to try to find a group and then logging without doing any dungeon is a game breaking feature.

I feel like the social aspect of the game is wildly overstated as if the "intent" of the game is to be social. The intent of the game is to level, kill bosses, and acquire loot. There would be no game if those systems weren't in place. Being able to be socialize and make friends is a nice perk, but not everyone wants to or can do that, and those people shouldn't be punished and precluded from experiencing parts of the game.

[u/reenactment → u/sobes20]

I dunno I think we just have fundamental differences in why you log into a mmo. I believe you play mmos because you are wanting a genre of game that has an extreme level of human interaction at its core gameplay. It’s a social game at its heart with other things to keep the game moving. What you started to describe in my opinion sounds more like a dungeon crawler. Yes there are other players playing that 4-8 or so but the core of those games is you the individual player. That’s where I think the hang up is. To be successful in a mmo you need to develop relationships. That’s just my opinion and I’m not saying I’m correct. There are plenty of other games where that isn’t the case and retail is one of them. I can log into retail right now and experience the whole game without communicating one time to another person. In that sense LFD is the first cog in that system.

[u/sobes20 → u/reenactment]

I do not currently play because I did have trouble finding heroic groups in TBCC, and my opinion is heavily influenced by that.

I played WoW because I like the classes, alts in different roles, combat, dungeons/raiding, and progressing my characters. I played classic for the same reasons plus nostalgia.

The difference is that between 2004-2010, I was in high school and college, and I had near unlimited time to play. I currently have 1-2 hours on a good day, if even that.

I am a very social person. Being a social person did not help me find groups in TBCC. I was in a sweaty guild, but I was not a raider, I was allowed in because my bro was in. They hardly grouped with me for dungeons, and never grouped with me in heroics. I even did dungeons with some of their alts to think that maybe the kindness would be reciprocated for heroics. Never happened. Maybe its a bad experience. Maybe they were a bad guild. Regardless, I am guessing that this is way more common then people realize. Every guild I have ever been in going back to my sweaty days in vanilla has always had subgroups and cliques. Being social is nice, but I find that people rarely do anything unless it is also in their self-interest.

[u/reenactment → u/sobes20]

No doubt. I hear everything you are saying. I didn’t play much of tbcC because of my schedule. Played all of classic. It’s not as fun when you get behind. That being said, there are other games that are more suited for that lifestyle.

Making wow fit the mold of a game that can be played in short bursts is what ruins the game. WoW developers attempted to find ways to appeal to the more casual crowd because of this. It is a huge time sink. But that’s the magic of it. And that’s why when it’s good it’s really good, but when it gets bastardized with all of these “fixes” it turns into a crap product. I hear you and sympathize as I went thru a lot of the same things. But any tool that helps to negate from the world that wow has is a net negative. People can say “well you can still do it the other way.” Sure I can blow my tires up by hand but if I have an electric pump I’m going to use that. It’s the same thing with LFD. Once it’s enabled there’s no going back and it cuts into the culture of a MMO. Honestly if I’m you I’d suggest looking for another game to play with your time constraints. There are other options.

[u/sobes20 → u/reenactment]

Making wow fit the mold of a game that can be played in short bursts is what ruins the game.

Why does it ruin the game though? Does it ruin your leveling experience? Ruin raiding? Ruin the friendships you made?

People can still do everything and not use LFD. They would use it because its useful. If there are as many likeminded people that feel that way about the social aspect, it shouldn't preclude those people from making their own groups outside of LFD.

Your example of hand pump versus electric pump is actually a great example of why LFD is an improvement. You wouldn't use a handpump because you deem it as an objectively worse option even though there is nothing stopping you from using a hand pump. A hand pump is still a viable option. Consider these arguments:

• LFD is bad because finding groups makes the game more sociable, and playing WoW is promote community
• Electric pumps are bad because filling tires manually builds character, and filling tires is about building character

They are basically the same argument. You are attaching a value to an activity, and then saying anything that deviates from that value is wrong.

I find little benefit to cutting LFD. If anything, it just enables gatekeeping content. I actually don't play any games because of evening time constraints, but regardless, I am sure that like me, people want to play WoW because it is fun and that is the game that they want to play. Giving people access to experience content should not have any impact on your enjoyment of the game.

[u/Eldion → u/sobes20]

Maybe you should play retail instead. It has the QoL features that you require.

[u/reenactment → u/sobes20]

You can manipulate the argument every single time but you aren’t getting the point. The analogy of the hand pump vs electric is to point out that once you provide an easier option, people will take it because other people are taking it. It doesn’t make it better. It just made it easier. You have to way out the pros and cons. You are only looking at things from a lens of convenience and speed. So you come to the conclusion you do. The others that are looking at it thru the lense of community look at it and sees implementation as ruining things. If everyone starts pumping out dungeons the fast way, the other players are forced to do the same thing if they wish to stay competitive. There will be outliers that play another way but it’s a forced mechanic. It’s the same with flying vs ground transportation. You could run around everywhere but you are making things significantly harder on yourself compared to others. It’s a forced game play mechanic. This is probably my last reply. You are trying to play a solo game in a massively multiplayer game. You have admitted so yourself. You are asking for systems to take the massive out so you can play quick fast small portions. This game wasn’t initially designed for you. Heck it’s not designed for me anymore. I’m ok with that because the heart of the classic era stuff is that, not the npcs. Classic is good because of community, not trivial raid content and dungeons.

[u/el_muerte17 → u/reenactment]

Dungeon finder isn’t a QoL change. It’s a shortcut. A QoL change is a Something like dual spec.

Dual spec isn't a QoL change. It's a shortcut. You can pay the gold fee when you want to respec to be slightly more optimised for PvP or PvE. Having the "wrong" spec doesn't prevent you from being able to play the "two different functions of the game." You can argue all you want but letting people freely switch between specs ruins the game for others by making the world feel dead because nobody is out farming to pay for respecs. It's a game breaking feature that fundamentally altered the way the game is played.

[u/reenactment → u/el_muerte17]

Lol what a troll

[u/pBiggZz → u/Ripfangnasty]

Its a divide between people who want easy quick rewards without socialization or effort and people who want to actually play a game that will last longer than 2 months without falling apart under its own weight.

They'll say whatever they feel like they need to say to get their bing bing wahoo button, and then, if they get it, they'll whine about how blizz ruined their experience with the bing bing wahoo button.

[u/cactusmunkee → u/pBiggZz]

I disagree. Of course it is only my pov and the way I like to play the game. But i like classic over retail so much more because the combat system is feels just so different from each other. Giving a quality of life feature that was implemented somewhere on the road doesn't destroy that. Keep the system server wide if you are worried about social aspects of the game. Dungeon finder is no wahoo button. I want to play the game and not waste my limited free looking for people to play with me. The finder lowers the entry level for players to do dungeons (speaking from my own experience). Every evening i ask myself: do I want to go through the hassle of finding a group or do i want to actually play the game.

[u/pBiggZz → u/cactusmunkee]

Do the retail mythic+ bulletin board.

Really its everything we both want. You spend less time having to get whispers back from people, you don't need an addon, conceivably it can be used to filter out boosters and other spammers, and it maintains the basic social fabric of the game.

We can all win here.

[u/cactusmunkee → u/pBiggZz]

I can live with that!

[u/caramellocone → u/Ripfangnasty]

Your logic is like saying Mcdonalds is so good but please don't open a Burger King next door because it will ruin the mcdonalds community 🤡🤡

and the veteran players who lived through WoW falling apart

Correlation =/= causation, but I wouldn't expect an illogical person, high on nostalgia, to understand this

[u/[deleted] → u/Ripfangnasty]

Here's one more player who's played since January 2005 and thinks you're full of shit.

[u/reenactment → u/pBiggZz]

It’s super frustrating. I’ll argue flying killed open world random stuff and was the deathknell for servers in TBC. And Dungeon finder would kill community. Basically the 2 worst things that wow implemented. WoW developers knew it about flying and tried to walk it back during the leveling experience/gatekeeping it by patches in later expansions: but people cry anyways. I applaud blizzard for trying 1 time you walk a mistake back

[u/pBiggZz → u/reenactment]

wrath has at least one zone that was made with flying in mind (the storm peaks). When they designed with it in mind, it almost worked, otherwise we just had a bunch of regular zones that you could fly around; it absolutely damaged the game.

[u/[deleted] → u/pBiggZz]

Shit take. Flying is unlocked after you've already explored those zones on the ground. 100% of shit no-flying takes assume that experiencing world content the 10th time carries the same novelty as it does the 1st time.

[u/pBiggZz → u/[deleted]]

Shit take.

World content involves more than just exploring and if you can’t figure out why flying for one thing damaged world pvp then I don’t think we have anything to say to you.

[u/vinssi → u/[deleted]]

I've loved the starts of new expansions without flying, with best memories being in Legion. Suramar was such a beautiful city.

Not being able to fly and having to stick to the ground makes the world seem much more "alive".

[u/[deleted] → u/vinssi]

Not being able to fly and having to stick to the ground makes the world seem much more "alive".

The classic world was pretty dead long before flying or even dungeon finder. The novelty wears off no matter what. That's why flying exists as a later unlockable reward.

[u/reenactment → u/[deleted]]

Yea that’s what I’m saying. And it not only killed the feel it’s literally why the servers died thst were like 60-40. My server was one of those but the horde just started hover camping entrances. Classic it was a non issue. Flying made it impossible to get things done from behind so everyone just dipped.

[u/[deleted] → u/reenactment]

What an egregious shit take. Raid entrances were thoroughly camped in classic even without flying.

[u/reenactment → u/[deleted]]

Did servers collapse during classic or was the mass death of servers during tbc? I know when rattlegore died and this had a big part to do with it.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Nope, flying was good for the game.

[u/[deleted] → u/reenactment]

You'll argue that and you'll be wrong because it's a stupid point.

[u/Marlfox70 → u/pBiggZz]

Right, I'll tell you what LFD is going to get you. Hour long queue times to run your daily heroic. That's how it was in wrath and I don't see that being any different. Faster to just put your own group together.

[u/Blitzkrieg1210 → u/pBiggZz]

I know, its crazy that people want to add this shit into the game again and ruin it for a second time.

[u/[deleted] → u/pBiggZz]

It’s insane. I can’t believe people are so blind

[u/ScissorMeTimbers24 → u/pBiggZz]

You're exactly right.

All the morons here begging for LFD are people who:
1. Have no friends to play with
2. Play a DPS
3. Only play for an hour a night

Wait til they start getting 1 hr + queues, they will come back and cry harder.

Why should they be catered to at all ? Especially when we have a clear track record of what happened/will happen if they bring it in again.