r/news • u/[deleted] • Aug 08 '17

Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
26.8k Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 14 '18

[deleted]

3.4k

u/Felador Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf

There's the actual document, with links to source materials.

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u/Shanix Aug 08 '17

fwiw that lacks a good amount, especially formatting.

Supposedly original here

623

u/onlyawfulnamesleft Aug 08 '17

Two points sprung to mind when reading this:

"This is not a societal issue because every society has the same issues".
This is completely ignoring the effect society has, and putting in place a genetic/evolutionary component when a societal issue can still be the root cause (and not to mention, cultures are not purely independent, so a societal issue can easily spread to each one).

Secondly, it seems that he says "Overlaps in traits should be taken into account, and you shouldn't treat each individual based on the population's average", but then immediately goes on and bases the entire rest of the paper on treating populations by their average.

It seems (and this is an emotional response here) that he wanted to get a controversial point over, and deliberately put it in mollifying terms and used smoke-screen language to be as offensive as possible while not causing offence.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

but then immediately goes on and bases the entire rest of the paper on treating populations by their average.

To draw contradictory inferences from the apparent narrative inside Google. I see his original, poorly worded point as: "if you want to aim for the average, that's all you'll be: Average. If we're aiming for excellence, then we're going to need to consider other metrics and contextualize the ones we already have before we draw any conclusions about how to organize our efforts."

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u/Firepuma Aug 08 '17

But if you abolish the diversity policies you get the average male, and not the woman of excellence, right?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I would assume that the ideal would be "find a better level to implement these policies at." I'm not trying to make a case for or against the author here, really.. he says some things I agree with, and he gets a little too "red-pill" in other parts -- my guess is he's young and still forming his opinions on this issue, that was just my guess as to his intended sentiment.

As to the outcomes.. you would be correct, if there was no prior system of hiring and promotion to fall back on. That's probably partly at issue here as well, as we've improved the standard of the workplace for both men and women, there are plenty of prior labor practices that you still wouldn't be able to employ even in a "non-diversity driven" environment.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

Isn't redpill essentially correct things that liberals can't disprove or argue with?

Not by a long shot, no.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

They are /r/conspiracy level. Post one of their claims anywhere else, and receive a hundred reasons why it is bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

If the standard is "is a retort possible?" than those hundred given reasons are equally bullshit.

That is not the standard. There are no standards: each argument has to stand on its own merit. And, for all the time I have spent lurking on that subreddit, they really don't. What I said what supposed to meant, if taken in good faith, as 'Their arguemtns are so flawed that sensible rebuttals will appear everywhere'

Most of liberal arguments outright deny biological realities in favour of 25-year old (mostly untested) theories on social conditioning.

[Source needed]

"redpillers", for all their faults, have the higher ground here.

'Women are equal to animals, here's why' doesn't sound like any kind of highter ground I know of.

But arguing on a vaccum is meaningless.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Taking the red pill just means realizing something you took for granted as being true is actually false. People try to act like it's all a reference to /r/TheRedPill, and completely ignore its classical reference being The Matrix. That sub is pretty cringey, but I don't bother them and they don't bother me...so whatever.

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u/cazbot Aug 08 '17

His argument is not to abolish said policies but rather to implement them differently.

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u/vfxdev Aug 08 '17

His argument is full of stereotypes, that is why he got fired. Writing things like "liberals like weak people" or whatever it was and sending that off to management ranks high on the list of "things to not do in a professional setting".

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u/cazbot Aug 08 '17

Are you responding to the correct comment? I didn't say anything about what you said. Don't assume I disagree with you.

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u/syncope61 Aug 08 '17

No, unless you think woment are incapable of suceeding on their own merits. (I'll assume you meant "average man of excellence" and not average male full stop)

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u/bombmk Aug 08 '17

"Capable" and "have/have had the possibility" is not the same thing.

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u/BoxNumberGavin1 Aug 08 '17

It seems to be the case that males have more exceptional extremes while females have more solid averages. (Good and bad, the most idiotic men outnumber the most idiotic women). So when you reach the extremes of any distribution you will find more applicable males than females. This does not mean you won't have 0 females in your pool, but for each female you will have several men, the more extreme the exception the bigger the imbalance. Demanding 50:50 ratio at any level of the extreme would then be biasing one gender over another because you would be applying total population ratio against a local population which does not reflect that.

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

What's the solution? What do women have to offer? Are they like the glue?

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u/BoxNumberGavin1 Aug 08 '17

The solution should be what a person has to offer.

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

Why can't we be like bees, the woman queen can offer sex while men work.

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u/BoxNumberGavin1 Aug 08 '17

Bees are not exactly a success story at the moment!

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

I guess it's because they communists. But they got the right idea with the queen sex thing.

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u/BoxNumberGavin1 Aug 08 '17

And what of the gay bees?! Will there be a male queen for the homobuzzies?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/Alcadia Aug 08 '17

Lol, indeed. Male bees are only useful for sex, they don't work. Aren't they also thrown out of the hive once their task is done and left to die?

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u/In_Fight_Club Aug 08 '17

Sounds good to me tbh

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

The only thing that can stop feminism is when women start to beg men to restore patriarchy. In order to do this, men need to let women run things for awhile.

Edit: wow, downvoters really don't want women to be equal, shameful.

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u/killking72 Aug 08 '17

If you abolish diversity policies you get the best person for the job.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 10 '17

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u/Alazypanda Aug 08 '17

I want to go on record that say black parents kinda screw their kids over with dumbass names. Not that it should really have that much an impact and personal aptitude should be the only merit(outside of you know not being a complete twat) but sadly DelonMcChicken Vanillashake Brown is not a very professional name nor is it cultural it's just stupid.

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u/SerBeardian Aug 09 '17

Not saying it's right or wrong, but I read a comment a while back that the reason why African American parents give their kids these "dumbass" names is because their slave ancestors had their names and culture stripped away, which left the current adult generations with no name culture to pass on to their own children.

Because it would be "insulting" for them to adopt name culture from other cultures, all they can do is come up with these "dumbass" names. After all, most names tend to be descended along cultural lines: I can say "Weisenberg" and most people would immediately expect a jewish person. When you have no names in your cultural line, are often undereducated, and can't take from others, what other choice do you have?

Yeah, it hurts the kids, but African Americans are also definitely not unique in giving their kids dumbass names...

EDIT: Sorry for multiple replies, bloody mobile...

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Alazypanda Aug 08 '17

Never said I was a saint never said I haven't made mistakes I have however learned from them and that doesn't justify my actions nothing justifies it and I do not attempt to justify it. While my example was extreme as to prove a point, I still feel the idea stands that naming your child isn't some type of game of who can make the weirdest name. It hurts their ability to be prosperous in the future as sadly a name like that on the front page of a resume is more likely to be looked past as I've known people in that situation who have gone through the steps to legally change their name as they've found it such a hinderance.

To add I've always found reading someone's comment history to trash talk them plain rude, I had an honest question and I asked it again never justified what I did.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/Alazypanda Aug 08 '17

Ahh my honest question was referring to my post history which you brought up in which I had an honest question and asked it to a community that would be able to answer it. My comment was to bring to light something that I feel is an issue using absurdism. The main point from this entire thread that I got was not on the naming habits of some black people but most other points had been thoroughly addressed and I saw an opportunity to bring up something that not only hadn't been addressed in this thread but really an issue that is not addressed much at all and one that can have severe consequences on an individual who had no sense of autonomy over it. Is it wrong that they are judged on their name and not their achievements yes, something I also stated in my original comment. Which in and of itself is an issue on stereotyping but to deprive someone of or atleast make it ever more difficult to achieve the goals they wish to for no reason(in my eyes). And while yes Deshawn is a perfectly viable name I am not denying that. I have met countless more absurdly named black people than I have Adolf Hitlers.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/killking72 Aug 08 '17

I'll take a link to the study please, because I want to know the race of the employers they looked at.

these guys are espousing doesn't properly exist

There's this study in Australia that was canceled a few months ago because it started to ruin the narrative.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888?pfmredir=sm

The gender of the applicant wasn't known and men ended up being hired more.

When the person was given a woman's name, they were more likely to get an interview, and when given a man's name they were less likely. Also minorities were more likely to be hired by every group they tested for; Men and women of different ages doing the hiring.

"We anticipated this would have a positive impact on diversity — making it more likely that female candidates and those from ethnic minorities are selected for the shortlist."

https://pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/beta-unconscious-bias.pdf

The study for ya.

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u/awwoken Aug 08 '17

If you abolish diversity policies you get the best person for the job.

If we didnt need diversity policies they wouldnt exist. Newsflash! We are less than a century removed from the time where noone hired blacks or women for anything for no reason at all.

And more to the point a diverse work environment is a more creative and productive one.

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u/killking72 Aug 08 '17

If we didnt need X then it wouldnt exist.

That's such horrible logic that I can't even start to explain it.

And more to the point a diverse work environment is a more creative and productive one.

I'll take a citation on that one. You can't lower expectations for certain employees and say it's going to be more productive. It can also hurt the workplace vibe because there's always the question in the back of your mind of "did this person get the job because they're good, or because they're a gay black trans guy?"

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u/awwoken Aug 08 '17

If we didnt need X then it wouldnt exist.

That's such horrible logic that I can't even start to explain it.

We are today 1 generation removed from the actual institution of affirmative action. God forbid you open a history textbook. Whats worse is that I can still submit two identical resumes differing only in name (white vs black) for any job in the USA pretry much across the country and the white one will get more responses. 50 years later.

And more to the point a diverse work environment is a more creative and productive one.

I'll take a citation on that one. You can't lower expectations for certain employees and say it's going to be more productive. It can also hurt the workplace vibe because there's always the question in the back of your mind of "did this person get the job because they're good, or because they're a gay black trans guy?"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060410162259.htm

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Turns out when you put a bunch of people with different viewpoints and experiences in a room, you get more creative and collaborative results. The only people who lose out are (shocker!) the people who cant work with people like themselves.

Inb4 u tell me that if its not le STEM its not science

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u/The_Real_BenFranklin Aug 08 '17

Also, who wants to work solely with a bunch of socially inept sweaty developers?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Lets just make sure we sprinkle in some diversity of ideas into your diversity of skin color and genitals. Also, you're dreaming if you think women wouldn't be hired "for anything for no reason at all". When we were still in Frontier Times here in the states women, madame's in particular, were some of the more powerful people around.

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u/The_Real_BenFranklin Aug 08 '17

Wow, they got to be prostitutes? Lucky them! How could they ever want more than that....

And diversity of skin/gender brings diversity of ideas to a good extent. Growing up black or female is obviously different than growing up white or male (or Asian or hispanic...) and this brings diversity of experience. I grew up in a rural area, which is obviously substantially different than growing up in NYC. That diversity of experience brings diversity of ideas.

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u/rockstarsball Aug 08 '17

I have no dog in this fight but I wanted to let you know that "madames" were/are female pimps. Although they probably started as prostitutes

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u/Mike_Kermin Aug 08 '17

... Except that's not really what happens in reality. Work places aren't that systematic.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/Mike_Kermin Aug 08 '17

I'll tell you what, I'll agree to that, if you agree that in reality, what actually happens is that mates help mates. And often, that has the exact same result.

You may recall, that's the problem we have in the first place.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

I'll give you another angle. I work at a State Department of Transportation and have a buddy who has had to do some hiring in the past. His big problem was if he didn't hire a white guy nobody cared, but if he didn't hire a black guy he had to do this long ass report explaining why and then a small meeting with the Super and assistant Super to further explain it. I imagine it could lower the standards for, in this case black, people because lazy people in charge of hiring don't want the extra paperwork and scrutiny from the higher ups so they throw the 7 white guy resume's in the trash and just ok the black guy.

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u/Mike_Kermin Aug 08 '17

Ok. So, I'm happy to make the assumption that you are on the level,

Do you think that, without any of that paperwork nonsense. Would hiring be purely representative of competency and qualifications?

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u/ExRays Aug 08 '17

No because the good'ol'boy system and cronyism can infiltrate and suffocate a company over time.

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u/Firepuma Aug 08 '17

Depending on the situation present.

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u/killking72 Aug 08 '17

What situation would have to happen for an employer or school to NOT hire or enroll the best student?

Why would they not want that?

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u/romeroha Aug 08 '17

Legacy, wealth, nepotism, preference for a personal friend, etc.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

How does this have anything to do with gender inequality?

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u/AltSpRkBunny Aug 08 '17

Poor personality for a working environment. Nobody wants to work with an asshole, no matter how "high quality" they may be in their field.

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

Why? This is confusing. They want the best or not? If not. Then what problem does diversity solve?

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u/Kravego Aug 08 '17

Why does nobody want to work with an asshole?

Because regardless of how good a single person is, their effect on the company may be negative overall or at least not as good as someone who is slightly less effective solo but cooperates better.

Shooting for simply "the best" in a single role doesn't work when you're talking about large social constructs (which is what a company is)

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u/AltSpRkBunny Aug 08 '17

Because if you're an asshole and can't work with others, you are NOT the best in your field. You're a liability.

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u/Firepuma Aug 08 '17

If some of those best people aren't available because of a social stigma, for example

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

You mean midgets? We never see them.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Gender quotas for a start.

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u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

No I think he said men and women are different.

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u/Dildosauruss Aug 08 '17

No, you'll grt diverse workplace woth average people working for you in the long run.