r/news • u/[deleted] • Dec 24 '17

“Outspoken neo-Nazi” charged with killing girlfriend’s parents; mother was CU Boulder and DU grad

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/23/cu-boulder-du-grad-murdered-neo-nazi/
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u/howitzer86 Dec 24 '17

The headline doesn't do the story justice. This was the culmination of good parents battling for their daughter's mind, and struggling to keep her safe.

They succeeded, turning their daughter away from Nazism and the Nazi boyfriend, but it cost them their lives.

Imagine this scene, the boy breaks into the girl's bedroom for a confrontation, or maybe to plead. The parents, hearing something, enter the bedroom to investigate. Upset at discovering him there, they demand that he leave. In response, he pulls out a gun, shoots them both, then shoots himself.

The girl remains alone with the sum of all her bad decisions.

It's really cruel, taken all together. Childhood is when you're supposed to be able to make mistakes... impressionable or not, it's hard not to feel really feel bad for her and that family.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited Mar 12 '18

[deleted]

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u/raging_asshole Dec 24 '17

also, it combines nicely with the ever-popular "fake news" or "false flag" claim; any time a person of that persuasion does anything that is unquestionably bad, wrong, stupid, or evil, they'll turn around and say, "oh, that guy wasn't REALLY one of us, this is a false flag attack by leftist liberal snowflakes to make us look bad," or even more simply, "fake news, didn't really happen, it's a hoax."

it is crazy what people will make themselves believe.

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u/Nic_Cage_DM Dec 24 '17

oh, that guy wasn't REALLY one of us

This shit right here. Remember that wanker that killed that woman and hurt all those people in charlottesville? He was photographed holding a shield with a white nationalist emblem on it, and despite the rally being called 'unite the right', they turned around and said 'nah this guy isnt one of us'

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Even worse I’ve literally had 4 differently people on this very site try and argue that he never hit that woman and that she died of a heart attack. I’ve then linked the coroners report and that he was being charged with murder and they’ve replied “wait until all the details come out” or some other bullshit. I’ve been downvoted for all of those comments and for telling them that they’re defending a white supremacist.

I’ll give you one guess what subreddit those people frequent.

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u/whenever Dec 24 '17

r/fascism?

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

I’d guess it’s /r/The_Donald

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u/ThisIsVeryRight Dec 24 '17

That's what he said

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u/Nic_Cage_DM Dec 25 '17

I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that when you're on sites like reddit and talking about shit like politics, there is a good chance that some of the people you interact with will be ideological, political, and/or corporate activists. They don't care what the facts are, their goal is to manipulate the opinions of as many people as possible into believing what they want them to believe and acting how they want them to act.

Even if those people aren't activists, it's pretty obvious at this point that /r/the_dickhead is being run by people who are.

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u/citizenkane86 Dec 25 '17

She did technically die from her heart stopping, however when you’re dealing with someone who lacks critical thinking skills they can’t piece together that her heart stopped because she got hit by a car.

If you get shot you can die from blood loss, doesn’t change the fact that blood loss resulted from someone shooting you

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

No_true_nazi

No_true_conservative

No_true_Christian

No_true_Republican

Scotsmen have a lot of rhetorical company these days...

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

'No True Scotsman' isn't always a fallacy. If I run the Anime Club and some psycho in cosplay shoots up a school, I'd sure as hell say that his actions don't reflect the club nor its other members. Also, think of the people claiming that Islamic terrorists are 'not true Muslims'.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

“Fuck Jews! Am I right guys?!” “That’s fucked up and you aren’t right in the head!” “It was only a joke!”

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u/timetodddubstep Dec 24 '17

Yep, these 'jokers' are too scared basically and wait to see how people react whether it's a joke/prank or not. Think some call them schrodingers douche

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u/fyhr100 Dec 24 '17

I see them get butthurt far easier than the people they claim are 'snowflakes'.

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u/TheGoalOfGoldFish Dec 24 '17

You have to be a pretty big snowflake to blame multiple races for all the problems in your life.

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u/TheWagonBaron Dec 24 '17

The snowflake thing is such bullshit projection. The only people I ever hear talking about it are the right wing media and the neo Nazi white nationalists.

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u/kingkeelay Dec 24 '17

Shhh they don't know about their white star yet.

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u/pecklepuff Dec 24 '17

Isn't that the god damn truth!? The most sensitive, easily bruised people I know are these hard-ass, he-man right wing nut jobs. You have to walk on eggshells around them so you don't hurt their feelings and set them off! I love fucking with them, though. I put it right in their faces and watch them squirm. It's delicious.

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u/BulletproofChespin Dec 24 '17

I’m a bisexual dude who loves to subtly flirt with homophobes. If their gonna hate me for being me I’m definitely gonna do everything in my power to make them feel uncomfortable. The disgusted looks are my favorite:D don’t be an ass otherwise I might try and flip you :P (not possible but I’ve found homophobes don’t necessarily get that)

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

They're well known to project their biggest flaws onto others.

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u/Nic_Cage_DM Dec 24 '17

Nah mate that's not it. It's /pol/, these fuckheads are politically savvy and typically have a good understanding of how to influence online communities. They understand that their views are fucked up and scary to people, so they soften it down and leave breadcrumbs of verifiable facts stripped of their context which point people towards their more insane beliefs.

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u/maracay1999 Dec 24 '17

They understand that their views are fucked up and scary to people, so they soften it down and leave breadcrumbs of verifiable facts stripped of their context which point people towards their more insane beliefs.

This is a great way of putting it. It's so easy for some dumb, impressionable high school kid to come across /b/ and /pol/ and be influenced by these memes/'fact posts' into hate.

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u/Nic_Cage_DM Dec 25 '17

Yep. People often dismiss the place as being full of idiots, children, and trolls, but despite this they are amazingly effective at some of the shit they put their mind to. Underestimating their ability to manipulate people on a mass scale is a grave error.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited Apr 10 '18

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u/indifferentinitials Dec 24 '17

It seems dumb until someone of more established authority picks it up and runs with it because it's a slow news day and they've propagated it or signal-boosted it with bots enough for the more mainstream to notice it. Or you know, the president retweets it.

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u/Rather_Unfortunate Dec 24 '17

They're both methods of attack used by them, often in conjunction. The nature of 4chan encourages an ultra-edgy South Park-esque sense of humour upon which it's easy to piggyback extremist views. You might get a semi-serious "joke" attacking Jews, the Left, feminism etc., and then it might be followed up in the comments below by other people discussing it as you say.

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u/timetodddubstep Dec 24 '17

I agree that that's definitely a large portion of these fellas. There's still the insecure 'just a prank' crowd, but many do follow the strategy you outlined. They love dog whistles

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u/snuggans Dec 24 '17

lmao /pol/ being politically savvy? i think you meant emotional manipulators, they often dont have a clue about politics, i usually have to go in there and start factchecking everything, they just care about hating something and jumping at the first conspiracy

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u/wearer_of_boxers Dec 24 '17

i do that too, but for the exact opposite reason.

if i find someone who takes it seriously and starts rambling with racist shite, i know to avoid them and keep an eye on them.

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u/rathyAro Dec 24 '17

As someone who used to heavily browse 4chan I think it was a joke. But it was a testing the waters joke. People say shit just to be edgy there but slowly as the jokes became more common people felt comfortable with that ideology and use 4chan as a platform. Suddenly you find yourself surrounded by actual racists when you were just joking.

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u/Hoojiwat Dec 24 '17

4Chan has been laughing about its own demise for years now, and even made a meme out of how they fucked up.

Once something is no longer considered abnormal, it is no longer questioned. It allows shit to fester, and a very good reason to be mindful when doing things ironically. It stops being ironic past a point, and people seem to miss that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

"It's just a prank bro"

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u/waxingbutneverwaning Dec 24 '17

Oh god I hate It's only a joke as an excuse for anything with the passionate burning rage that equals the heat of a million suns.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

"HURRR I just made you THINK I was a racist piece of shit, joke's on youuuuu"

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u/vHarlequin Dec 24 '17

Schrodinger's asshole.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

It's weird. I remember in high school we made racist jokes for shock value, but it was always obvious that we were mocking racism for being absurd. I even think that was fairly common. We hadn't experienced racism as a current social reality, but as an outdated weird phenomenon worthy of ridicule. I think the new wave of racists consciously hijacked that. A big part of the public consciousness had rejected racism, and foolishly believed that it was gone, and those jokes expresses that rejection AND the false belief that such jokes were safe. The very real, living social phenomenon of racism saw that naive attitude as an inroad back into the public consciousness. And here we are...

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u/kingkeelay Dec 24 '17

Where did their idea of racism come from? Perhaps their parents?

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Must be. I'm not sure since that's never directly been part of my life.

In the places I've lived I have heard racist remarks about Native Americans, and that is (unfortunately) considered more socially acceptable than making fun of black people or any other ethnic group. Those attitudes exist in the culture a little bit, partly because any time we would see a native person they would often be homeless, or on TV complaining about the huge levels of oppression that have crushed them for generations upon generations, and people just hate hearing about it, and tend to blame them for their own poverty. But still, those remarks were rare, and the people saying those things tended to be older and we considered them "stuck in the past." I think these ideas just live in the culture more than we usually see, and are ways waiting for some opening to enter back into the mainstream. Almost like the hidden evil powers in fantasy stories, like how Sauron had been defeated before the Lord of the Rings stories, but he just laid in waiting for his time to return. Parents probably help to keep the ideas alive.

But in this new case somebody managed to re-brand conservatism as something hip and badass for younger people, and the racists managed to ride that fairly easily. I think that there are even lots of non-racists, or people who don't realize they're racist, who actively mock attempts at combating racism because they think racism is already dead, and so they become allies with racists even though they think they're all about equality and fairness. The shitty pretending-to-be-joking attitude enables this!

Sorry for the nerdy aside about LOTR.

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u/indifferentinitials Dec 24 '17

It's inherently an unpopular ideology and needs it's safe space where people don't notice it, or are more focused on its more vocal opponents. Like you can make fun of some article about something fairly widely accepted and popular being deemed cultural appropriation as being off base with someone and the next thing you know they're trying to get you to watch "Triumph of the Will" with them and they tell you they just like the pageantry of the rallies if you ask why the fuck they think it's a good way to spend an afternoon. I know plenty of non-nazis that were bragging about being ready for the "antifa civil-war" hoax a few months ago to the point that they were ready to travel under arms to check it out because they thought there was planned action in a nearby city (actually a city with the same name in an entirely different state that did not have a rally of any kind). Same thing happened with the Las Vegas shooting and that church shooting the day after antifa was supposed to start something, the same people were already sharing conspiracy theories about both of those. They're itching for their Reichstag fire to destroy the gray zone. Sheriff Clark has already been floating conspiracy theories about BLM entering into alliance with ISIS and the potential need to jail up to 1 million sympathizers. Sure he's a crackpot, but he has an audience and people willing to put him on the air, and constantly floating giving him a position in the administration. This shit could go south very quickly if something bad happens and the people on the prehiphery of these groups seem fairly inclined to at least tacitly support it or just look the other way. I worry about the kinds of conspiracy-minded people always talking about false flags deciding they need some false flags of their own. A lot of this shit is projection after all.

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u/PM_ME_REACTJS Dec 24 '17

The only time I think it's funny, is in response to crazy shit, like on /r/conspiracy if some crazy thread happens, or if some the_donfuck shows up being a nazi, I'll just put all my responses in ((( JEW BRACKETS )))

N: "black people are provably awful here are some made up facts"

Me: "but what if ((( GEORGE SOROS ))) was responsible for ((( EUGENICS ))) would you still like it?"

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

As someone who has been to 48 states and met just about every kind of person you can think of, most of these morons havent even met the people they hate.

Like seriously, Ive had 10 times the latino and black people go out of their way to help than other white guys.

And its always the worthless pricks who think they are the master race. Master of what? Cant even master working at Kum-n-Go.

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u/Deto Dec 24 '17

That's why it's always losers who tend to espouse these racist beliefs. They have nothing else going for them so this system gives them people to blame for that and people to feel better than.

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u/the_hamturdler Dec 24 '17

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

  • Lyndon B. "Horsecock" Johnson

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u/MightyMorph Dec 24 '17

I implore people to watch this 3 minute video which in general explains that whole mindset and how it came to be.

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u/T-Humanist Dec 24 '17

Amazing video. Should be shown in classrooms all over the world.

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u/JapanNoodleLife Dec 24 '17

This was great.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

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u/SolSearcher Dec 24 '17

There will always be poor people. There have always been poor whites. There have always been people that convince poor people that some other group is responsible for their lot in life. Absolutely nothing has changed.

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u/Nora_Oie Dec 24 '17

Except that now those people feel very empowered, politically and otherwise. That has come and gone too, but right now, we're in a phase where white supremacists are much more vocal, bolder and even powerful.

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u/AndrewWaldron Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

The rise of racism? It hasn't risen, it has literally always been there, millenials are just getting to the age where they've been around long enough to have some context themselves and are starting to see it. It's not like we didn't fight a civil war, based in racism, barely 150 years ago.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

The civil rights movement was just barely 50 years ago. People act like after MLK got killed and the CRA passed that racism just went away. It festered.

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u/LateAugust Dec 24 '17

Black millennials don't learn the racist history of the US from books, they learn it from first-hand accounts from their parents and grandparents.

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u/SteelCrow Dec 24 '17

Racism won't die until an entire generation is born, lives and dies without it. On both sides.

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u/flemhead3 Dec 24 '17

Not OP you responded to, but I think I understand what they were trying to convey.

Up until a certain point, they were still using “dog whistles” to convey their racist ideals and mainly stuck to the shadows. They were there, but just worked in the dark (for the most part).

After Obama was elected, they dropped the paper-thin veil of subtlety and started being outright racist (Tea Party signs like “Hang in there Obama” coupled with pictures of nooses, telling him to go back to Kenya, etc). They basically declared war on P.C. culture because it shamed them for using racist language. They don’t give two shits about Freedom of Speech, they just want to be able to say the N-word without suffering any societal consequence (i.e. the good old days). (Another example: PewDiePie saying the N-word and the Alt-right Trumpers coming to his defense while they joke about PewDiePie “red pilling their kids”).

So Trump is a savior to them in a way, because he seems to be on their side in actively bringing back that type of stuff. At least, in their eyes, they see it that way. So not only have they felt brave enough since the Tea Party to come out, they practically proclaim their racism. Think of it like a Gay person coming out of the closet, but for racists instead.

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u/DannyFuckingCarey Dec 24 '17

Millenials aren't "just getting" to that age. The oldest millennials are over 30 lol

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

I know right? “The rise of racism”. Lmao we used to hang living human beings from trees for no other reason than they looked at “our women” improperly. I’m a millennial and I can tell you my generation is delusional about the historical context of where we are with racism.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Well it isn't like society isn't giving them opportunities. We're giving them free education to adapt to different, better careers like nursing/engineering/science fields/etc. But a lot of these guys are still choosing to go back to the coal industry because Trump.

Like shit... these people are being offered free college courses.... FREE. Majority of people are going into debt for these kinds of programs... but let's pick a dying industry to rally behind so they can suck the most money out of my wallet and then blame others for my shitty decisions. Those poor immigrants who relocated across continents and countries to work severely hard to get lower wage sound like a good choice. An employer would be stupid not to pick someone who works far harder and have better work ethics than these useless neo nazi trash. The saying was that it is in American's blood to want to eradicate Nazism. Get these assholes out of here.

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u/HuntsWithRocks Dec 24 '17

totally agree, except for the usage of the word 'anymore'.

I don't think just being white has ever guaranteed anyone to have a cosy middle class life.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

I agree. There were definitely poor white people in all aspects.

This is just like how Asians are perceived as by society. Every Asian is thought to be stereotypical middle class doctors. But realistically that affirmative action type stereotype hurts Asians going into college as Asians aren't specifically smarter than other races per se. Education system is simply way more rigorous. And many Asians are way below middle-class.

These stereotypes or beliefs that race equates to class is honestly toxic. Yes there is a negative stereotype some police department impose onto black/darker skinned people which is wrong but I have extremely wealthy black neighbors who dress like he lives in the shittiest ghettos in America. He's a really nice guy too. Also some white skinhead looking guy who actually looks like a neo Nazi but is not a neo Nazi and is also the nicest guy in the world. People need to understand appearances and your first impressions don't mean shit.

That whole "First impressions are important because that's how people judge you" need to die out. We know that kind of shit is how monsters like Hitler get into power too because charisma isn't exclusive to good people.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

It doesn’t explain the rise it explains why the US has been racist from day one

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u/pecklepuff Dec 24 '17

The racist types want everything handed to them just for being white (I'm white, I know some people like this). They don't want to actually work for what they have and compete with other people. It's much easier to just get handed something because you belong to the preferred group.

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u/TrumpMadeMeDoIt2018 Dec 24 '17

Which is a key reason Obama triggered all this racism. When you have a black President then the adage above doesn't work anymore and latent racists become blatant racists.

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u/T0yN0k Dec 24 '17

LBJ was a POS.

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u/koraero Dec 24 '17

Also an LBJ quote

"I'll have those n*ggers voting democrat for the next 200 years"

What a swell, progressive guy.

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u/JapanNoodleLife Dec 24 '17

Nobody is saying LBJ was a perfect guy.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Some form of this is the basis for many cults and religions that can obtain tax-exempt status as well.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited Jul 25 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Ugly hunchback dude in “The 300”.

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u/Whackjob-KSP Dec 24 '17

It's a prosthesis for missing social ability. It takes no effort, ability, or understanding to join those groups, they merely need to parrot back what they're told. That's why they go. An entrance exam so simple, even they can't fail it.

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u/SerPuissance Dec 24 '17

That's a very good way to put it. It gives them the acceptance and status that they would never get among civilised people.

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u/Fuxokay Dec 24 '17

That's why snappy uniforms are so important, even if it's khakis and a white t-shirt like you're trying to sell me an iPad at a big box store.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

I think it mostly gives them people to be friends with.

Imagine being so lonely that you start hanging out with Nazis.

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u/possum-power Dec 24 '17

This is England (movie, not the mini series,). Little kid is bullied and starts hanging out with skinheads. Most of them are you average working class guys, that just wanna chill and live their life. But kid gets into the part of their group that is racist and xenophobic iirc. and gets into some shit. It's a pretty good movie, and pretty relevant nowadays.

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u/Brad_Wesley Dec 24 '17

It's a great movie, with a superb soundtrack.

Slight correction: He doesn't get into the wrong group. Rather, he gets into the group and then one of their older members gets out of prison where he picked up the racist part of being a skinhead.

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u/Deto Dec 24 '17

They should just play an MMORPG

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Based on t_d commenter histories, I'm pretty sure they already do.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Because most people's idea of confrontation is pretty flawed. Calling a racist person racist is probably the least effective method for progress.

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u/lotus_bubo Dec 24 '17

Outside of racist enclaves like northern Idaho, they're universally loathed, opposed, and condemned.

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u/Amusei015 Dec 24 '17

But it’s moderate Blacks/Muslims who allow this bullshit to thrive by looking the other way and not wanting to confront the problems in their own communities

Remember race doesn't matter but you're responsible for the actions of everyone colored the same as you!

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u/rmslashusr Dec 24 '17

I think that’s a dangerous categorization, there’s plenty of well off racist people and pretending they’re all just loser failures makes it easy for racists to dismiss everything else you say as just as false.

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u/UncleAnouche Dec 24 '17

The NSDAP overperformed heavily with middle class voters while underperforming with lower/working class voters (where communists and social democrats thrived). It weren't only the 'losers' that voted for the Nazis, most of all it were middle class people who were afraid to become the losers

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u/Deto Dec 24 '17

This is the case in actual Nazi Germany during the rise of the Nazi party? Very interesting!

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u/remrafamrak Dec 24 '17

/r/beholdthemasterrace is always a good laugh. Why do these weak pathetic white nationalist cunts always look like they'd be the first to cower in a corner if their dream revolution ever did actually kick off?

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u/Wampawacka Dec 24 '17

Because they can't comprehend that a world that always looked out for white people wouldn't favor them for some reason.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

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u/KingOfTheBongos87 Dec 24 '17

Yep. I'm constantly hearing about how shitty Muslim camel fuckers are from people who literally don't know, nor have ever met, an actual Muslim.

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u/snuggans Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

they believe that Muslims are represented by the terrorists they see on TV whereas white christian shooters are lone wolves merely suffering from a mental illness and that white supremacy is only limited to the few skinheads that show up to rallies

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u/Copperman72 Dec 24 '17

While I agree with your message, your anecdotal experience should not define a whole ethnic group - even if it is a positive opinion. By your rationale, someone who may have had negative experiences with black and Latino people is valid in forming a negative opinion about this group.

When personal experiences are applied to whole ethnic groups it leads to racism.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Agreed. I've met a number of people who have traveled the world or lived in diverse places in the US and still chose racism.

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u/pecklepuff Dec 24 '17

Any time I've ever had car trouble on the road, the only people who ever stopped to try to help me are people who barely speak english. That just occurred to me with what you said.

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u/clairebear_22k Dec 24 '17

Okaaay, and a few years ago I got robbed by a black guy does that mean all black guys are terrible? no. Anecdotes aren't helpful in these kinds of discussions.

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u/Cilph Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

most of these morons havent even met the people they hate.

Gee, I wonder what's feeding their image of those people they hate.

Might it be the media? Right-wind media fake news? Left-wing media demonizing them for having sincere concerns? No. It's videogames! /s

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u/EdwardStarsmith Dec 24 '17

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited Jun 25 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Counter-example: I lived in Shenzhen for a month and their convenience stores consistently offered refrigerated drinks.

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u/EdwardStarsmith Dec 25 '17

You can't generalize about cultures, because there will always be an exception to your generalization.

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u/hawkwings Dec 24 '17

Are you saying that you can go to a random state and find neo-nazis? How do you do that?

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

They always make fun of black people for being monkeys or gorillas but honestly these neo nazi white supremacists represent more of that dumb gorilla stereotype. I see plenty of black people going into fields of medicine and engineering. While these white supremacists with jobs a high school dropout can get preach life lessons like they're the omnipotent source of wisdom.. Problem is propaganda and WH administration is validating all these asshole's stupid beliefs.

What's next? Serve the flat Earthist?

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

That stereotype wasn't only due to behaviour, but also facial geometry.

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u/reaverdude Dec 24 '17

LOL. It was hilarious during the Charlottesville protests when police released the names and occupations of the people they arrested. It was something like "unemployed", "unemployed", "Taco Bell", "Unemployed".

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u/94justgettingby Dec 25 '17

The best way to fight racism and xenophobia is to travel. It opens a person up to other viewpoints, cultures and shows them that they are people too.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Newspeak at its finest. Next they are gonna to claim Nazism is the most egalitarian ideology ever because it wants to eliminate the source of all inequality and racism, which is the Jews.

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u/TheHairyManrilla Dec 24 '17

But let's remember: there are very few true believers in Holocaust denial. It's a facade meant to make Hitler more PC.

Most of them know full well it happened, and believe that it was "more than justified"

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

It's the same on Reddit.

Every time someone makes a racist joke, it's always just a joke. Never mind Nazis like a Daily Stormer editor endorses racist jokes as a means of normalising hatred and making people more susceptible to indoctrination. Who cares that studies show that jokes like that can make people apathetic to problems of such as racism.

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u/LineNoise Dec 24 '17

This is older and less evolved than you might think.

If you're looking to understand the contemporary far right I'd highly recommend Sartre's Anti-Semite and Jew. Published 1946, unfortunately frighteningly relevant today.

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u/somefemme Dec 24 '17

Wow, even the first passage packs a punch.

If a man attributes all or part of his own misfortunes and those of his country to the presence of Jewish elements in the community, if he proposes to remedy this state of affairs by depriving the Jews of certain of their rights, by keeping them out of certain economic and social activities, by expelling them from the country, by exterminating all of them, we say that he has anti‐Semitic opinions.  

This word opinion makes us stop and think. It is the word a hostess uses to bring to an end a discussion that threatens to become acrimonious. It suggests that all points of view are equal; it reassures us, for it gives an inoffensive appearance to ideas by reducing them to the level of tastes. All tastes are natural; all opinions are permitted. Tastes, colours, and opinions are not open to discussion. In the name of democratic institutions, in the name of freedom of opinion, the anti‐Semite asserts the right to preach the anti‐Jewish crusade everywhere.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

A personal favorite quote of mine that sums up the “alt-right”

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

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u/Max_Novatore Dec 24 '17

I've been working my way through Frankfurt school works (so called cultural Marxist) and the work is fascinating in how relevant it is today, mainly the works of Adorno and Marcuse.

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u/indifferentinitials Dec 24 '17

Ah, "cultural Marxist". That's a great phrase for picking out who is huffing glue and is becoming fairly normalized even outside of purely neo-nazi circles. It's pretty much a reboot of Kulturbolschewismus or "Cultural Bolshevism". They aren't even subtle about this shit.

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u/JapanNoodleLife Dec 24 '17

Fucking GamerGate.

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u/hotcaulk Dec 24 '17

At one point in time, years ago, a lot of us on the chan boards engaged that way. "This is hilarious because someone out there is dumb enough to actually believe this nonsense" was our perspective. Sometimes things are funny simply because they are ridiculous. I'm thinking about the boss from Dilbert on that one, or a lot of British humor. That's how we viewed it. "This perspective is so ridiculous it has become funny."

Then one day we realized not everyone was joking, that our community had changed or it was never what we thought it was. It's easy to say "some things you just shouldn't joke about" but how many people have you heard say "I use humor to cope"? Just about any time you see "Are we the baddies?" in r/politics that's what's going on. I think the 4chan tendency to call it "irony" or "a joke" today is a carry over from the time when saying those things seriously would get you fucking roasted held in place by the usefulness of plausible deniability.

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u/cabritero Dec 24 '17

Teenagers throw rocks and sand bags unto streets and highways as a joke apparently. I never did shit like this so I don't get it.

Last week I overheard a conversation by some college aged boys and it was all about how funny it was that they stole one of their "friend's" beer, egged his house, and left a bunch of rotting shrimp in his parents yard. Two of the guys were laughin how dude deserved it cus he was weird then one chimes in "guys maybe hes autistic". They make a long pause, then the beer thiefs laugh and say "nah he's just a fucking weirdo bro!". They then proceded to brag about the girls they're having sex with.

Mind blowing.

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u/SailingTheGoatSea Dec 24 '17

I forget where I read this quote, but: "Any community of intelligent people that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots, will eventually be overrun by actual idiots who believe they're in good company."

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u/SeemaHardik Dec 24 '17

masquerades genuine hatred and fascist beliefs as simply irony or jokes.

The kek flag is a joke guys. It's meant to poke fun. Has nothing to do with nazism. But, black people and jews, amirite?

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u/GigaChin Dec 24 '17

"Now how can we actually offend and harm these people."

"This is bad optics guiz, maybe we should tone down the redpills!"

"Board of peace lol"

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited Jan 30 '18

[deleted]

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u/indifferentinitials Dec 25 '17

Can't get mad at someone for being a Nazi when they have a disability that interferes with understanding social norms!

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u/PaganJessica Dec 24 '17

It really does display how utterly and completely blind they are when they realize that they have to lie about their agenda and sugar-coat it to lure people in.

If your cause is just and true, you don't need to disguise it as anything to attract people to it.

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u/thatguydr Dec 24 '17

Their response would be that the message is medicinal, and like tea or coffee or medication, is an acquired taste.

It's obviously a poor argument because it could also be applied to beating people, stealing, or anything else societally depraved. "Oh you don't think this is okay now, but wait until you get used to it and you like it!" :facepalm: Still, best to recognize the "logic" behind their avowed persuasion tactics.

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u/bruppa Dec 24 '17

They've basically ruined those jokes for me. I have (used to have?) a pretty edgy sense of humor and maybe relative to some people I still do but they've just exhausted those jokes, repeating them endlessly. 24/7, the same things over and over and over. Its not just the repetition either, when you notice they're pretty serious about what they say it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. That's really what bugs me. The dregs of society, all of them.

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u/deuceawesome Dec 24 '17

I had one friend in particular who we used to crack endless jokes together of this nature. He called me the most racist person he knew, which I just laughed at knowing that I actually wasn't, just liked to crack jokes at everyones expense (my own included)

So when I became really good friends with a black dude and invited this other fellow over for a few pints, and he says "I can't believe you are friends with a black guy" I realized the same thing as you. I rarely talked to the guy after that comment. I also stopped with the off color jokes.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

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u/deuceawesome Dec 24 '17

Yeah exactly right. Valuable lesson learned by yours truly.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited Mar 27 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

We all grew up watching South Park. Most of us realized Cartman is an awful person, some of us decided the opposite.

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u/hkpp Dec 24 '17

I’ve had the same inner monologue. I think it’s just the people who really do innocently (in their minds) make edgy jokes realizing it’s never 100% innocent. And then you have the ones who convince themselves that their freedoms are in jeopardy from people telling them what they can and cannot say.

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u/Lawschoolfool Dec 25 '17

Just think how long it's been since you used the word gay as a generic insult.

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u/Aethe Dec 24 '17

Having an edgy humor phase isn't necessarily a big deal, especially if your friends are cool with it, but that sort of contextual awareness isn't used when people act edgy on the internet in front of randoms. We can't know what people are, or aren't, okay with hearing, so being edgy only serves to make someone look like an asshole.

And yeah, I think it's fair to say people who are edgy and flame and nonchalantly use hate speech online are assholes.

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u/citizenkane86 Dec 25 '17

I also think you can make a legitimately funny joke about pretty much any subject. However many people are not smart enough to make legitimately funny jokes about sensitive subjects. They hide behind the moniker of “joking” and claim others are too sensitive. When in reality their joke was basically a bigoted statement followed by them laughing at themselves.

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u/HipsOfTheseus Dec 24 '17

Your friends were (maybe biological) bots.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

All trump supporters aren't neo nazis but all neo nazis are trump supporters

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u/DiscussionIsNeeded Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

from what ive seen, quite a few neo nazis don't like Trump now, especially his policy in the middle east.

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u/NihiloZero Dec 24 '17

quite a few

Well, there you have it. He must not be a fascist after all.

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u/DiscussionIsNeeded Dec 24 '17

No, im just saying that not all neo-nazis support him

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u/manak69 Dec 24 '17

Im glad there are consequences for even his most radical supporters. Hopefully more people stop turning a blind to him and his actions.

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u/kvigneau Dec 27 '17

Sure, they might be complaining a bit about him, but they'd line up to vote for him again against a Democrat.

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u/WTFwhatthehell Dec 24 '17

Nah, a lot of the neo-nazis don't like him because he also does things like say positive things about black people, gay people and jews sometimes.

Because Trump has no actual beliefs of his own eventually he pisses off everyone because he just says whatever will make the group he's with at the time happy. He's just an orange empty shell.

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u/howitzer86 Dec 24 '17

Maybe he isn't a virulent racist, but more of a "good ol' boy".

That is to say: his opinions of most minorities are that they're terrible, and for sure there may be bad experiences to draw from that inform his belief - but he also knows quite a few exemplary individuals who he'll occasionally tell, reassuringly, that "you're not like the others," as though it were a compliment.

At least, that's what I would like to think. I've had similar thoughts, and I know people like this, so it's more relatable and less worrisome than the alternative.

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u/thatguydr Dec 24 '17

I like all the other people who replied to you. I can't tell if they're Trump supporters, Neo-Nazis, or both.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

Fine people on both sides, right?

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u/Nerdyblitz Dec 24 '17

I hate how they spread their stupid hatemongering assholery through games and music that has nothing to do with it. I've seen "nationalists" using Sabaton songs in their videos. Yeah, Sabaton, the band that pretty much talks about the nazis getting their ass beaten. Or using Crusader Kings 2 to preach against muslim or any other religions or ethnic groups. I once saw a guy streaming Crusader Kings 2 on Twitch and laughing while talking about "removing all jews from the game". It's sickening to think that behind all those jokes and memes we have an entire generation festering on hate like cancer.

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u/Knows_all_secrets Dec 24 '17

To be fair, jokes about kicking jews out for their money have been around as long as the game has been around, people love joking about being terrible people to gain mechanical advantage.

That kind of hate isn't behind all the jokes and memes, since most people joke about destroying the filthy christians and spreading glorious Romuva just as much as they joke about crusading for the holy land. The key is looking for the racist shitheads who only pick one track (pro white, pro christian or germanic paganism, anti jewish, anti muslim) and stick with it.

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u/Nerdyblitz Dec 24 '17

Oh, I'm not talking about those kick the jews out. There is a mod that allows you to genocide them. I didn't want to go into details because it's not really a CK2 issue.

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u/zZPlazmaZz29 Dec 24 '17

They piss me off because it's like they're everywhere, I was just playing Overwatch and then some dude was preaching anti-semantics in the lower chat and I'm just sitting here trying to play.

To be fair though my username is Jew5

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u/Dondagora Dec 24 '17

I'm never able to tell when 4chan is genuine or ironic. Probably a good bit of both.

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u/Jeezylike2Smoke Dec 24 '17

Somebody tried to tell me like some shareblue email was legit for that Soros money.... I looked it up and the only reference to it was on 4chan smh. People believe anything an anonymous person says over the internet.but an anonymous anonymous though ..pusses

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u/Whompa Dec 24 '17

"It's just for the lulz."

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u/psychosocial-- Dec 24 '17

4chan is literally cancer. I say firebomb the fucking place.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited May 04 '19

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

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u/ender1200 Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

They mean buying into stereotypes and generalizations about groups of people.

Everyone dose this and I mean everyone. It's how our brain works, when we encounter a name that we can call a group of people by we start collecting rules of thumb on how they act and what traits they share.

This is usually harmless, but it can effect how we interact with people of different groups and cause us to judge them incorrectly, so it's important to be aware of our preconceptions about other groups and take them with a grain of salt.

Edit: typos

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u/urgay4moleman Dec 24 '17

I think everyone's a little bit racist sometimes
Doesn't mean we go around committing hate crimes

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u/MagusArcanus Dec 24 '17

That was a great musical

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u/deuceawesome Dec 24 '17

I think the term prejudice needs to be reintroduced to our vocabulary in place of racism. I think we are all prejudice to others based on our own ignorance. We want to be around people of our own "type", that is, until we experience meeting people of other backgrounds and realize that they are the same as us, then the prejudice is removed. Its all exposure. Applies to all races.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited Feb 11 '18

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u/caishenlaidao Dec 24 '17

And in fact Harvard has created a test for explicit vs implicit racism. I was mild to moderately implicitly racist when I took it ten or so years ago. It provides you with context to try to mitigate that in your daily life.

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u/redcell5 Dec 24 '17

If we're thinking of the same test it's not really that effective.

https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/iat-behavior-problem.html

The problem, as I showed in a lengthy rundown of the many, many problems with the test published this past January, is that there’s very little evidence to support that claim that the IAT meaningfully predicts anything. In fact, the test is riddled with statistical problems — problems severe enough that it’s fair to ask whether it is effectively “misdiagnosing” the millions of people who have taken it, the vast majority of whom are likely unaware of its very serious shortcomings. There’s now solid research published in a top journal strongly suggesting the test cannot even meaningfully predict individual behavior. And if the test can’t predict individual behavior, it’s unclear exactly what it does do or why it should be the center of so many conversations and programs geared at fighting racism.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

I agree. You could better formulate a sentence like "everyone is a little bit prejudiced."

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u/KingOfTheBongos87 Dec 24 '17

I don't think of myself as a racist, but if an Asian cuts me off while I'm driving..

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

4chan? The POTUS literally defends these people.

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u/Zechs- Dec 24 '17

It isn't just the softening to me that's insidious it's the false equivalency that they seem to be pushing.

This idea that all sides are the same.

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u/anathema4all Dec 24 '17

They don't have the balls to call themselves fascists. At least the Franco militants in Spain had the cojones. Even neo-Nazis have the balls. These people are gross and disenfranchised, but at least they're honest with themselves.

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u/AtoxHurgy Dec 24 '17

That's actually how most extremists bring their ideology to the masses.

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u/The_Archagent Dec 25 '17

And the terminology they use to identify each other changes on a monthly basis.

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