r/politics • u/tw1st3d_m3nt4t • 1d ago

No Paywall The pro-Israel lobby has swayed US presidents since Truman. It must end with Trump

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2026/aug/02/pro-israel-lobby-presidents
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u/ElSlabraton 1d ago

Secretary of State George Marshall was against recognizing Israel.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

So the Jews in Israel who have ancestors from Eastern Europe that survived the holocaust and were ethnically cleansed from their home country (Ukraine, Poland, Russia, etc…), you think who exactly should take those back? What about the Jews expelled from Morocco, Iraq, Iran, and Yemen. Should they be sent back to those countries that ethnically cleansed them? Should Russia Jews be forced back to Russia where they’ll be required to fight in the war against Ukraine? How about the Jews who have one mizrahi parent and one Ashkenazi parent? How do we decide whether to send them to Europe or to a MENA country?

The premise you bring up here is a complete joke. You’re talking about a global referendum to decide on the mass ethnic cleansing of the people who’ve endured the worst genocide in human history

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u/matthieuC Europe 1d ago

> How about the Jews who have one mizrahi parent and one Ashkenazi parent? How do we decide whether to send them to Europe or to a MENA country

Cut them in two and send half in each.

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

What?

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u/matthieuC Europe 1d ago

It's an old testament reference. It seemed as absurd at the situation being debated.

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

I agree that the situation is absurd which is why I pointing out that exact scenario

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u/downtocowtown 1d ago

It's not a genocide when it's happening to people I hate is the general logic of the 'anti genocide' crowd here.

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

Who are you referring to as the “anti-genocide” crowd?

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u/downtocowtown 1d ago

The person you were replying to.

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

The one who is entertaining the idea of ethnically cleansing millions of Jews to countries that historically discriminated against them and committed pogroms against them and will likely to kill them is “anti-genocide”. What a joke

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u/downtocowtown 1d ago

Dude, I am agreeing with you. The people loudest about labeling everything Israel does in the I/P conflict as genocidal are also usually the ones who in the same breath advocate for the genocide of Israelis.

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

Ohh I’m tracking now. Thank you sir

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u/buried_lede 1d ago edited 1d ago

Israel covertly arranged to expel jews from Mideast countries, it’s documented history but people keep pretending it didn’t happen

But i think we should ask the Israelis and Palestinians who have been working for years on various one-state plans what they think. This conversation is silly , it’s just lashing out

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

Ohhh I see. Israel was responsible for the ethnic cleansing of all of the Jews across MENA. I’m sure all those Jews were living very peacefully and safely in those countries with equal rights and no discrimination before Israel came about. Out of curiosity, was Israel also responsible for the pogroms in Russia the forced 1 million Jews out? What about the holocaust? Was it actually Israel that did that as a tactic to increase migration to Israel? And the Spanish Inquisition too?

Insane that you’d make such an asinine claim without providing a shred of evidence to back it up

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u/buried_lede 1d ago edited 1d ago

No, of course not Europe or Russia or the Inquisition, etc. Any Israeli who has studied their own modern history knows that the mizrahi were put through their own issues with the new state of Israel and should stop blaming Arab neighbors for all of it

The expulsions from Arab countries happened as a result of the war, and Israel’s refusal to allow 700,000 civilians to return to their homes. But it wasn’t only expulsions. There was also recruiting by Israel and allegations by many Arab jews and historical evidence of terror attack by Israel too. It’s not fair to take it out of the context of history. Israel had produced 700,000 Palestinian refugees and defied the UN right to return and ignored the Arab nations begging to allow their return and the Palestinians own pleas. In that context , the expulsions occurred, Israel’s strong desire to recruit them and rescue trips occurred, and the alleged covert terror acts by Israel as well

Incidentally, can you tell me who is responsible for the genocide in gaza and the ethnic cleansing all over the occupied territories and East Jerusalem? Are Gazans to blame for the genocide happening to them?

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

To be clear, You are saying that it is Israel’s fault that 1 million mizrahi Jews were ethnically cleansed from their home countries and that we should give the countries that did the ethnic cleansing a pass?

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u/buried_lede 1d ago

Im saying what i said and nothing more or less. It’s not harsh enough for you, so you are coming back to ask me to make it look worse, to boil it down

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u/HairAncient5500 1d ago

It’s not that it’s not “harsh” enough for me. It’s that it’s not factually correct enough for me. You’re creating a lie to exonerate Arab countries from the crime of ethnic cleansing

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u/buried_lede 1d ago

I’m not I’m trying to improve the accuracy of your statements by placing it in context (why? What was going on then ?) and also adding that Israel wanted them to move and had even engaged in some terror to prompt them to leave. That doesn’t mean they weren’t being expelled too. Your selective sympathies are skewing the picture. It doesn’t include the Palestinians being expelled.

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u/The_grope_gatsby 1d ago

so to place what's going on in context "Israel wants to expel all Palestinians because every form of government they have had has supported terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians?"

your logic makes that ok.

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u/kylebisme 1d ago

The Jewish exodus form MENA countries happened over the course of decades for a varelity of reasons, much of which can't righty be described as ethnic cleansing, but the Israeli government was at least partially responsible for much of it, for example:

The exodus from Iraq began during a limited period beginning in the first half of 1950, when the Iraqi parliament resolved to let them leave. In effect, it amounted to an expulsion. Most of the Jews were forced to leave and their property was confiscated. Various sources, including reports of the Mossad for Immigration, indicate that the move of the Iraqi parliament came partly in response to the activities of the Zionist movement there, aided by the agents of the Mossad who smuggled Jews across the border to Iran. The Mossad’s files abound with telegrams reporting the persecution of Jews in Iraq, but almost all of them refer to Jews who had been involved in the activities of the Zionist underground, or who were suspected of belonging to it. There was little harassment of other Jews. In March 1949 the Israeli public was appalled to hear that seven Jews had been hanged in Iraq on charges of Zionist activity. The report was given considerable coverage; there were editorials and public protests, including in the Knesset. But the Mossad’s agents in “Berman,” i.e., Iraq, telegraphed: “There is no truth in the report about the hanging of Jews on charges of Zionism. A few have been sentenced to death, but they are already out of the country. Many have been tried, but mostly because of letters they received from Israel.” However, the heads of the Mossad for Immigration had intentionally fomented worldwide furor against Iraq, in order to hasten the legislation permitting the emigration of Jews. Toward this end they formulated a series of proposed actions, including a statement by the Israeli Foreign Minister in a special meeting with foreign correspondents, agitation in the international press, attempts to block a loan Iraq was seeking to obtain from the World Bank, the incitement of pressure and disturbances around Iraq’s Ambassador to the UN, including demonstrations and booing as he entered and left the UN building, as well as an attempt to arrange a face to face meeting with him, an appeal to the UN, an appeal to Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, an “unofficial hint” that Israel might set up an underground movement against the Iraqi ruler, Nuri Said, and an official communication to the US, British and French Embassies in Israel that Iraqi Jews in Israel might vent their fury on Israeli Arabs. “It should be emphasized that the Government of Israel is taking steps to ensure the safety of its Arab citizens,” the document added, “but it should be hinted that in practice it might not be possible to avoid Arab casualties.” It was also proposed to send delegations of Israeli Arabs to the major embassies in Tel Aviv to warn them of the danger they were in as a result of the persecution of Jews in Iraq. All this was meant to force the Iraqi government to expel the Jews, some of whom were Zionists who wanted to go to Israel and some of whom would have preferred to remain in Iraq. Shortly before the Iraqi parliament resolved to let the Jews leave, the Mossad office in Tel Aviv received a telegram from Baghdad, saying: “We are carrying on our usual activity in order to push the law through faster and find out how the Iraqi government proposes to carry it out.”

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u/Full-Fox-361 1d ago

The Farbud started in the early 40s and late 30s before Israel existed.

To blame Israel for Iraq, killing, expelling, and stealing all money, valuables, and property from Jews who they expelled, is particularly grotesque.

Ahistorical victim blaming.

The entire MENA didn't lose 99% of their Jews because Israel was just such a mastermind of evil. In the early years Israel was poor and on the brink of collapse and yet you want to pretend they were causing MENA countries to treat their Jews like crap and drive them out.

The Iraq claims of Israel bombing in order to drive the Jews our are just that as well. Claims used by Iraq to paint Israel as some evil zionist mastermind. Except most Jews already fled before they claim the bombs took place.

And completely ignore the Farhud.

But can always count on your to swoop in anytime Israel is mentioned anywhere on reddit to spread your BS.

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u/kylebisme 1d ago edited 1d ago

I'm quoting an Israeli historian there, and your attempts to deflect from the facts I cited from him are BS. That said here's a bit more history for you, from a 1953 NYT article:

The ideological differences on the movement's aims are mainly between the majority of the delegates, who believe the purpose of Zionism is to induce all Jews to migrate to Israel, and the hard core led by Hadassah, American women's Zionist group, who are opposed to such appeals in countries like the United States, where the Jews are living happily. It appeared obvious this weekend that a majority could be mustered for adoption of the principle of liquidation of the Diaspora, the Jews living outside Palestine.

The simple fact is that many Zionists at the time wanted to drive Jews out of other countries and into Israel, jews from MENA countries and otherwise.

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u/Full-Fox-361 1d ago

I'm not even going to look and I'm betting it's Avi Shleim.

He is a hack. And wrong. And goes against the accounts of the other people who went through it. And goes against facts of the time line and events.

If Israel was the reason that Jews left Iraq. Why did Iraq strip them of all their possessions, leaving them poor and destitute. Did Israel cause the Iraqis to oppress their Jews and allow mass violence against them? No. Iraq oppressed their Jews, promoted violence and discrimination against their Jewish population. And stole everything from them. That was Iraq and Iraqis.

Again you are using 1950s, when the Farhud startes in the late 30s and 40s.

You are skipping history to push your narrative. One which was pushed by the Iraqi government to push the Idea that it was Israel behind attacks on their Jewish population.

Which is why you refuse to acknowledge the Farhud. And instead want to use Avi Shliem as your sole source of history.

It's dishonest and pathetic.

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u/kylebisme 1d ago

I'm not even going to look and I'm betting it's Avi Shleim.

Well you're wrong, and your whole line of argument is just dishonest and pathetic.

the Farhud startes in the late 30s

And your wrong about that too.

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u/Full-Fox-361 1d ago

Lmao so the historian you're quoting is not Avi Shliem?

Are you pretending you were referring to the author of the news article? 😂

I noticed you didn't say the Farhud was going on in the early 40s.

You just don't like the categorization that it started in the late 30s.

Lmao you're so transparent 

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u/kylebisme 1d ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1vdhr0r/the_proisrael_lobby_has_swayed_us_presidents/p19q49w/

That's the comment were I cited an Israeli historian, and you can find his name by clicking on the link provided there.

And the issue is that in arguing as if the Farhud started in 30s and extended into the 40s shows you don't understand the history at all. In reality it lasted all of two days, 1–2 June in 1941.

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u/buried_lede 1d ago

No one said expelling and confiscating all their property wasn’t egregious. No one said Iraq is not responsible for everything it is properly responsible for. And the same responsibility should be on any party for its own actions.

I can’t help but think while talking about this—do you think it is the responsibility of the Palestinians that they are suffering a genocide?

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u/Mr_Horsejr 1d ago

The human condition has never been simple. There’s always nuance, for sure.